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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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The "players and owners only" meeting is a terrible idea for the players.

The players should counter by challenging the owners and bettman to a pickup game of hockey. Winner gets everything they want in the CBA.

Put Bettman in goal and put it on pay-per-view.

Bettman gets shellacked, the league recoups its financial losses, and the players get to start the season with a warm, fuzzy feeling in their hearts.

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Put Bettman in goal and put it on pay-per-view.

Bettman gets shellacked, the league recoups its financial losses, and the players get to start the season with a warm, fuzzy feeling in their hearts.

Sounds like a plan to me.

People love to quote the Forbes report from a couple years ago. Well Forbes just valued the Leafs franchise as being worth $1 billion dollars. That's a B, not an M.

And last season the NHL experienced 9% growth in revenue, and the average value of an NHL team was worth 18% more than the previous season.

Makes perfect sense they'd lock the players out and cost a season in that kind of terrible economic environment. :eh:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410452

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The latest attempt to circumvent negotiations bring to a total, by my count, of two. This is unpresidented in sports labour negotiations. "Negotiating in good faith" is a totally foreign concept to Uncle Gary.

What's next; a voucher given to each player from the League, good for the purchase of a turkey?

To these eyes, there is no more proof necessary that Uncle Gary's Christmas wish is to bust the union.

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The "players and owners only" meeting is a terrible idea for the players.

Not that he's the end-all-be-all authority on anything, but Danny Cleary at least is is keen on the idea...

And while it may prove to be a terrible idea for the players, it does at least address one question that we've seen raised several times here. The question of "What would happen if Bettman and Fehr (and their substantial egos) were not involved in the process?"

In the end, I don't think anything would come of that kind of a meeting, especially if hawks like Jacobs and Leonsis are involved. But it would at least be interesting to see what might happen with a direct meeting like that...

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Not that he's the end-all-be-all authority on anything, but Danny Cleary at least is is keen on the idea...

And while it may prove to be a terrible idea for the players, it does at least address one question that we've seen raised several times here. The question of "What would happen if Bettman and Fehr (and their substantial egos) were not involved in the process?"

In the end, I don't think anything would come of that kind of a meeting, especially if hawks like Jacobs and Leonsis are involved. But it would at least be interesting to see what might happen with a direct meeting like that...

Hell at this point they should try just about anything. I guess it's good Bettman actually asked the union this time before trying the end around of owners talking directly to players.

Mostly I just meant that this definitely benefits the owners more than players. There's nothing they'd love more than to negotiate directly with players during contract negotiations and CBA negotiations. It'd be like the pre-NHLPA days. If hockey players were great at negotiations, they wouldn't need agents. Meanwhile they're sitting across from billionaire owners with extensive business and negotiating experience, as well as a massive support staff to help them.

Either way, my main position is still f*** this league. With the growth this league has enjoyed during this last CBA, the prudent move would've been a compromise that wouldn't lose games and damage the integrity and public faith in the NHL. What both sides gave up on the negotiating table would've been recouped fairly quickly.

Instead they're still arguing over how to arrange the deck chairs on the titanic.

vladdy16 and Z Winged Dangler like this

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Hell at this point they should try just about anything. I guess it's good Bettman actually asked the union this time before trying the end around of owners talking directly to players.

Mostly I just meant that this definitely benefits the owners more than players. There's nothing they'd love more than to negotiate directly with players during contract negotiations and CBA negotiations. It'd be like the pre-NHLPA days. If hockey players were great at negotiations, they wouldn't need agents. Meanwhile they're sitting across from billionaire owners with extensive business and negotiating experience, as well as a massive support staff to help them.

Either way, my main position is still f*** this league. With the growth this league has enjoyed during this last CBA, the prudent move would've been a compromise that wouldn't lose games and damage the integrity and public faith in the NHL. What both sides gave up on the negotiating table would've been recouped fairly quickly.

Instead they're still arguing over how to arrange the deck chairs on the titanic.

My position is that I could use all the nasty rhetoric I want, but the fact is that they're ALREADY losing money they could have had from me. I spend between $100-$300 on tickets per year, usually on the two Wings games in Minnesota, plus some other Wild games. I was planning on dropping the $100+ for the first time on either Center Ice or whatever the AppleTV app (GameCenter?) is to watch out-of-market Wings games. Not to mention I was a reliable set of eyeballs on NHL broadcasts. And there's people who spend FAR, FAR more than I do. They're already losing my money. I don't need to pretend like I won't come back for it to hurt, it should already hurt them.

As for mediation, I had zero confidence that it would do anything, as did most of the reason. But while most people were focusing on the non-binding aspect, they're missing the point. The industry I work in does non-binding mediation also, but it is often very successful. The difference is that the parties view the mediator as a proxy for what an arbitrator or judge might LATER conclude in a subsequent binding proceeding. Here, there is no final binding procedure, so even if the mediator came in, railed on one side and told them "you're going to lose", it wouldn't amount to anything.

I'm actually surprised how many regular fans are buying into this notion AGAIN that the players are responsible for these teams not being able to operate at a profit. The Forbes story has tons of flaws, I'm sure, but is it really any less reliable than the self-reporting being done by Bettman and the owners? They have no interest in representing their businesses as "successful" in any way during these negotiations, and we don't have the actual numbers.

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Plenty of other hockey to watch. I am watching KHL streams when I can and I am going to more Griffins games. The NHL is a distant memory to me.

Yup - and this afternoon, and evening the NHL Network is airing some WHL/OHL games.

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I'm all for the idea of a closed room meeting between the owners/players...

If anything - it'll possibly get some of those more outspoken on both sides to get the ball rolling on a new cba.

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Dreger reposted a few novel ideas for the players & owners meeting...

Interesting idea (not mine)...Don Fehr picks the 4-6 owners the players want in mtng, while Bettman selects players.
Another concept to consider for meeting. 4-6 owners, 2 GM's, 2-4 top agents and collection of players.

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Dreger reposted a few novel ideas for the players & owners meeting...

I like both of those ideas, much more than Bettman picking the owners and Fehr picking the players. We all know Bettman would pick the owners hanging from his nuts and who the hell knows what players Fehr would pick. It would just lead to the same head butt we've been seeing thus far...

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Nothing's going to happen until the season ticket holders start canceling their tickets

http://www.thestar.c...XFI2Jw.facebook

I know a few friends of mine who have. I don't know many who have season tickets though.

I have told this story before, but one of my friends has season tickets to the Blackhawks and has had them for 8 years. Before the season started, the Hawks took 1/2 payment up front for the season tickets. This really upset a lot of season ticket holders because of the impending lockout. Now, the Hawks are paying people back every week there aren't games. So every week they get a check for 3-4 games worth of tickets that didn't get played. These are for 4 seats at about $50 per ticket so they get a check for $600-$800 each week. Oh, and if you want all your money back now, the Hawks will do it but you lose your season tickets for next season and there is a waiting list for season tickets now in Chicago.

I know if I was in this situation, I would be really pissed off.

I believe the biggest problem is that you have more corporations buying season tickets than you have real fans. The cost to go to a game these days is not cheap. The real fans cannot afford to go to many. It is considered to be a luxury. That luxury is one many cannot afford. Besides, watching them on HDTV at just the cost of their cable/satellite is more affordable. Many corporations will not be canceling their season tickets because those tickets are used to bring business in.

Hell, if I had season tickets, I would be cancelling in a heartbeat.

Edited by Nightfall

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I know a few friends of mine who have. I don't know many who have season tickets though.

I have told this story before, but one of my friends has season tickets to the Blackhawks and has had them for 8 years. Before the season started, the Hawks took 1/2 payment up front for the season tickets. This really upset a lot of season ticket holders because of the impending lockout. Now, the Hawks are paying people back every week there aren't games. So every week they get a check for 3-4 games worth of tickets that didn't get played. These are for 4 seats at about $50 per ticket so they get a check for $600-$800 each week. Oh, and if you want all your money back now, the Hawks will do it but you lose your season tickets for next season and there is a waiting list for season tickets now in Chicago.

I know if I was in this situation, I would be really pissed off.

I believe the biggest problem is that you have more corporations buying season tickets than you have real fans. The cost to go to a game these days is not cheap. The real fans cannot afford to go to many. It is considered to be a luxury. That luxury is one many cannot afford. Besides, watching them on HDTV at just the cost of their cable/satellite is more affordable. Many corporations will not be canceling their season tickets because those tickets are used to bring business in.

Hell, if I had season tickets, I would be cancelling in a heartbeat.

Yea I think we aren't seeing a bigger amount of season ticket cancellation, is because most of them are owned by corporations. They can take the loss, plus everything is a tax write off anyway. Bettman's using this as leverage, but it's really not a true represenation of what he majority of fans are thinking. It's like being a Maple Leafs fan, even if you want to try and protest the 45 years of horrible management, the corporations buy all the seats and the team is still making it's huge profits despite losing, so they'll never see their team win.

It's unfair, Bettman can use the corporations to his advantage. It's not the players who are greedy, it's Bettman.

Edited by Barrie

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It's unfair, Bettman can use the corporations to his advantage. It's not the players who are greedy, it's Bettman.

both sides are being greedy.

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Josh Yohe@JoshYohe_Trib

Consensus from players: They don't care if Bettman is around or not. They do care if Jacobs and same old owners are present at next meeting.

if the players don't care then why do they keep blaming bettman???

article debating the benefits of a player/owners only meeting

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if the players don't care then why do they keep blaming bettman???

article debating the benefits of a player/owners only meeting

Maybe it's only the handful of players that have been unprofessional that have spoken out that really care if "Little Person Big World" is there or not? Maybe the other players know that the owners are more to blame then "little person buttman" dur hur

Edited by hillbillywingsfan

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if people want a single person to blame on the league side it should be jeremy jacobs, owner of the bruins and head of the negotiating committee. that guy is 10x worse than bettman is.

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It's unfair, Bettman can use the corporations to his advantage. It's not the players who are greedy, it's the owners.

I fixed it for you.

While Bettman deserves the criticism, I believe the owners themselves are equally responsible. Yes, I am talking about Mr. Illitch and every other owner of every NHL team. Lets keep that in mind.

if people want a single person to blame on the league side it should be jeremy jacobs, owner of the bruins and head of the negotiating committee. that guy is 10x worse than bettman is.

Its very easy to read the public hate against Bettman. At the same time, every owner is skating away scott free and free of criticism. Read twitter and other social networking sites, and you will see that Bettman is discussed with vile hatred. This is why the owners hired him to be their mouthpiece. People can and should be reminded that when this is over and Bettman is either retained or fired, that the owners do not deserve a nickel of your hard earned money. Neither do the players at this junction. The NHL should fall into even worse shape so they are forced to drop ticket prices and plead with the fans to come back to the sport. The NHL owners and players should really feel like they got kicked in the nuts by the fans after this debacle.

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Somehow, ESPN gets it right on Bettman:

We’ve all forgotten what the definition of commissioner used to be. It’s faded over the last couple of decades. Call me naïve but last time I checked Bettman is the commissioner of the league. That includes the owners, players, zamboni drivers and Blackhawks Ice Girls. When exactly did the word commissioner become “puppet for the owners?”
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Put Bettman in goal and put it on pay-per-view.

Bettman gets shellacked, the league recoups its financial losses, and the players get to start the season with a warm, fuzzy feeling in their hearts.

+1

Except, Bettman doesn't get pads :)

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Somehow, ESPN gets it right on Bettman:

from the article

When exactly did the word commissioner become “puppet for the owners

when the board of governors (AKA the owners) selected him.

otherwise i agree with his premise that bettman needs to go. regardless of whether he's doing the owners bidding or not, his image alone is a bad one for the league. as marketing 101 goes: "perception = reality"

Edited by chances14

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+1

Except, Bettman doesn't get pads :)

Don't worry. I'm sure if they told Bettman he could have pads he'd chuckle and tell them he wasn't a woman.

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Somehow, ESPN gets it right on Bettman:

That is a good article on explaining why Bettman is a terrible commissioner. It's not just irrational hate.

It also verifies another important point that's not being talked about when people compare this negotiation to the NFL and NBA CBA talks. Aside from the fact that the NBA also greatly increased revenue sharing in their deal, have a soft cap and a luxury tax, they're paying every single penny of player contracts that were signed before the new CBA. Only in the NHL is this considered an absolute necessity to renegotiate existing deals. And the players have even agreed to it, which didn't happen in the NBA.

Again, maybe Bettman is right. Maybe they should give some money back for the betterment of the league, but that sales job has to be the best he’s ever done. He needed to go “door to door” to each player and sell that -- if it could be sold at all. The NBA tried to sell it and it got shoved right back in their faces. No player in either of those leagues with an existing contract is making less than their contract called for after their labor issues were resolved. Under the current NHL revenue intake players are being asked to give back 12.3 percent of their current salaries, unless they can change the formula and make good on those lost wages. That’s an argument that simply can’t be made or needs to be made with a whole lot more tact. It’s breaking their contracts. Why doesn’t Bettman see how important that is to a person?

Another important point I've been trying to make that the article states well:

Let me be clear, Bettman might be right about every aspect of this fight (though he’s not), yet he’s still in the wrong. Simply put, his bedside manner has been horrific. His negotiating tactics have been awful. We’ve all forgotten what the definition of commissioner used to be. It’s faded over the last couple of decades. Call me naïve but last time I checked Bettman is the commissioner of the league. That includes the owners, players, zamboni drivers and Blackhawks Ice Girls. When exactly did the word commissioner become “puppet for the owners?” He should be held to a higher standard and that includes in the negotiating process, even if he is representing the owners.

It comes down to the part of his job as defined in the NHL constitution that is to protect the integrity and public faith in the league. There he has failed again and again.

No matter when the NHL season resumes, I hope they get rid of Bettman. If the league loses an entire season again, firing him is an absolute necessity.

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