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shoobiedoobin

Would you trade Jimmy Howard for an elite forward/defenseman?

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But you're talking about 187 games jimmy played in GR, compared to like 15 Mrazek has played, you cannot compare that

They were also much more matured and refined by the time they got the chance, and a few of them had started earlier, but took a few years in the nhl to really develop.

Ozzy, did get chances in the playoffs, he was decent in the playoffs but never great. He had a great team in front of him which certainly helped, but he did play every year in the playoffs and was given many opportunities to prove himself. Many fans did not think he could ever win us a cup, hell people were even starting to doubt Stevie, but thankfully management saw what the fans did not, and just like howie will, he brought stanley back to hockeytown

In 94 the Wings started the playoffs with Essensa but he was terrible in a 6-5 loss to the Sharks they put in Ozzy the rookie in and he was great, recording a shutout in the first winning the next one and then he made a big mistake handling the puck giving it to the Sharks for an easy game winner in the 4th game. They went with Essensa for the 5th game, he was terrible again losing 6-4, The Wings were down 3-2 at this point they went with Ozzy again and he was great and won the 6th game and the Wings lost the 7th 3-2 Ozzy was good Irbe was better. In this whole series the Wings were dominant, they looked like they were playing a jr. team except Irbe was amazing (one of the best goaltending performances I have ever seen), Essensa single-handidly lost games for them and Osgood was great but they wete worried about going wityh a rookie for the playoffs, I think if they did, we might have won the Cup that year.

The next year Vernon was brought in. Vernon was our starter for 2 years and when Osgood was finally given the opportunity to start in the playoffs he won the Cup and was actually better than Vernon in the previous year (Vernon won the Conn Smythe but the Wings were dominant outshooting the opponent in every game and they had Vladdy that year, Ozzy didn't), he had better numbers than Vernon every year but they chose to go with Vernon in the playoffs in 95 becasue he had already won a Cup and was more experienced, the following year Osgood once again had better numbers than Vernon and the went with Ozzy in the playoffs, he was great but once again we didn't win a Cup. The next year he had better numbers than Vernon but this time they chose Vernon and the rest is history.

Osgood and all those other goialies you mentioned were great NHL goalies as soon as they were afforded the opportunity to be. Osgood and all of them were just as good when they entered the league as they were throughout their careers.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="shoobiedoobin" data-cid="2339311" data-time="1357932386"><p>

<br />

Attitude is so overblown. Antii Niemi won a cup for crying out loud, and not only is he mediocre but he can get junior hockey-style shaky and lose his confidence. Even in that playoff run he looked like ass a lot of the time. JS Giguere won a championship and his attitude is as plain jane vanilla as it gets. And for argument's sake, there's nothing wrong with Howard's demeanor. He'll defend himself far more than most goalies will, he sticks up for teammates, he's actually openly shown more swagger and bravado in his crease than most goalies in this league. If anything I'd say hiw he carries himself is one of his positives.</p></blockquote>

Giguere had the "it" for a few seasons. Dont you remember us throwing 55 shots at him every game and only getting 1 goal? He and his size 92 sweater and 24" wide pads caught fire and saved Anaheim's ass.

Niemi I will give you. He was just in there on a bitchin team.

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howard and quick's career numbers are remarkably similar but you wouldn't know that judging by all the quick hype

Regular Season

Howard

Gaa: 2.41....917 Sv%

Quick: GAA: 2.31.... 916 sv%

-----------------

Playoffs

Howard: GAA 2.63... 915 sv%

Quick: GAA 2.12... 9.26 sv%

and quick's numbers are severely inflated by the cup run last year in which i think everyone can agree, it was waaaay more about the defense than him coming up with big saves. take last year out, and the numbers are even more similar.

Let's also not forget that howard was a huge reason why the wings made the playoffs in 09-10 when the wings were also struggling to score earlier on in the season simliar to what the kings problems were early on last year

at this point in time i'm not sure how someone can clearly say that quick has the "it" factor but howard does not.

Edited by chances14

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="shoobiedoobin" data-cid="2339311" data-time="1357932386"><p>

<br />

Attitude is so overblown. Antii Niemi won a cup for crying out loud, and not only is he mediocre but he can get junior hockey-style shaky and lose his confidence. Even in that playoff run he looked like ass a lot of the time. JS Giguere won a championship and his attitude is as plain jane vanilla as it gets. And for argument's sake, there's nothing wrong with Howard's demeanor. He'll defend himself far more than most goalies will, he sticks up for teammates, he's actually openly shown more swagger and bravado in his crease than most goalies in this league. If anything I'd say hiw he carries himself is one of his positives.</p></blockquote>

Giguere had the "it" for a few seasons. Dont you remember us throwing 55 shots at him every game and only getting 1 goal? He and his size 92 sweater and 24" wide pads caught fire and saved Anaheim's ass.

Niemi I will give you. He was just in there on a bitchin team.

A bitchin team and probably the biggest cake walk to a championship ever. Giguere I always thought was blown insanely out of proportion. At least in 2004 he could move his arms and legs. In 07 he'd become a shell, just skating past his crease, butterflying and relying on his stacked defense. If Giguere, Niemi, Ward, Fleury or Khabibulin can win, Howard definitely can. We just judge off of what we immediately feel when we think of a player, mostly rep, and like anything in life we wait until it's safe to change our minds. We will say Jimmy can't win one, until he does, and then he'll be viewed as a winner. People last offseason said the same thing about Jon Quick and a lot of other goalies until they won.

Edited by shoobiedoobin

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howard and quick's career numbers are remarkably similar but you wouldn't know that judging by all the quick hype

Regular Season

Howard

Gaa: 2.41....917 Sv%

Quick: GAA: 2.31.... 916 sv%

-----------------

Playoffs

Howard: GAA 2.63... 915 sv%

Quick: GAA 2.12... 9.26 sv%

and quick's numbers are severely inflated by the cup run last year in which i think everyone can agree, it was waaaay more about the defense than him coming up with big saves. take last year out, and the numbers are even more similar.

Let's also not forget that howard was a huge reason why the wings made the playoffs in 09-10 when the wings were also struggling to score earlier on in the season simliar to what the kings problems were early on last year

at this point in time i'm not sure how someone can clearly say that quick has the "it" factor but howard does not.

Howard's on a better team and has had Lidstrom in front of him. It will be interesting to see how he fares this year.

If Howard wins a Cup this year, he will be a lot richer next year than if he doesn't

Edited by Johnz96

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This is a GREAT point. Probably the most significant thing Jimmy lacks = the attitude. Roy had it. Hasek had it. Brodeur has it. The ability to seem indomitable inspires the rest of the team. Quick last year is a perfect example. Jimmy doesnt have this.

14 months ago, no one would have said quick was someone that had it either. heck, he was still fighting to keep the starting spot form bernier.

i am not trying to implty quick was bad last year. i just think we all need to keep perspective. players can go from chump to hero and back in the blink of an eye in the nhl. especially in goal. there are very few goalies that can be top level for more than a few years.

i would love to see mrazek develop into the goalie of the future. but right now he isnt an option and gustavsson is not anywhere near as good as howard. trading him would be getting rid of one of the best players on our team and would leave a hole at the most important position on the ice.

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Nope, need to be sold on the other goaltenders in the organization first. Not to mention if Howard can be traded for something we need, that means he's playing really well and I'd rather keep him. And if he plays bad he wouldn't be worth anything. Don't have enough NHL goaltending depth at the moment to make an above average goalie expendable.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Dabura" data-cid="2339268" data-time="1357925397"><p>

<br />

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the <strong class='bbc'>dynamic</strong>, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, <em class='bbc'>score.</em>)</p></blockquote>

I will concede to you that Ive picked 3 goalies that are superb examples of having that "it" quality with the confidence/cockiness that spreads to the rest of the team. And I also agree with you that the rest of the team matters a whole hell of a lot. Im just saying Jimmy is not a Stanley Cup winner. Ever. He doesnt have "it". He is a workhorse, and I admire/like him for that. But unless we travel back to 1997 and swap him for Vernon/Osgood, he isnt going to lift the mug.

LOL, I am bookmarking this thread, so that I can one day say I told you so and have the proof, have some faith in Howie. If all the wings "fans" had it their way we would never have re-signed Datsyuk and we would be watching him dangle around Jimmy a few times a year, because everyone was convinced he didn't have "it" either, and he chokes in the playoffs. When you go tooting about how great howie was in the playoffs when we win the cup I will be there to show you this thread :)

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howard and quick's career numbers are remarkably similar but you wouldn't know that judging by all the quick hype

Regular Season

Howard

Gaa: 2.41....917 Sv%

Quick: GAA: 2.31.... 916 sv%

-----------------

Playoffs

Howard: GAA 2.63... 915 sv%

Quick: GAA 2.12... 9.26 sv%

and quick's numbers are severely inflated by the cup run last year in which i think everyone can agree, it was waaaay more about the defense than him coming up with big saves. take last year out, and the numbers are even more similar.

Let's also not forget that howard was a huge reason why the wings made the playoffs in 09-10 when the wings were also struggling to score earlier on in the season simliar to what the kings problems were early on last year

at this point in time i'm not sure how someone can clearly say that quick has the "it" factor but howard does not.

Ya it was totally more about the D than him, that's why he won the Con Smythe. The fact is Howard numbers have been better during the season, than the playoffs, somthing that needs to change soon.

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...This thread's become kinda funny though, ranging from no, to yes, to Jimmy is untradeable, to Jimmy wouldn't fetch anything (LOL!). I dunno where we get some of this stuff from.

...

Are you suggesting that we actually could get an elite player for Jimmy? I mean Jimmy as the main piece, not just a part of some big package.

If so, you must have a pretty liberal definition of the word 'elite'.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Euro_Twins" data-cid="2339383" data-time="1357948709"><p>

<br />

LOL, I am bookmarking this thread, so that I can one day say I told you so and have the proof, have some faith in Howie. If all the wings "fans" had it their way we would never have re-signed Datsyuk and we would be watching him dangle around Jimmy a few times a year, because everyone was convinced he didn't have "it" either, and he chokes in the playoffs. When you go tooting about how great howie was in the playoffs when we win the cup I will be there to show you this thread :)</p></blockquote>

Thats just nonsense about Datsyuk. He was pimping from Day 1. How long did he spend in Grand Rapid. Oh. yah. Thats right. Next.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Euro_Twins" data-cid="2339383" data-time="1357948709"><p>

<br />

LOL, I am bookmarking this thread, so that I can one day say I told you so and have the proof, have some faith in Howie. If all the wings "fans" had it their way we would never have re-signed Datsyuk and we would be watching him dangle around Jimmy a few times a year, because everyone was convinced he didn't have "it" either, and he chokes in the playoffs. When you go tooting about how great howie was in the playoffs when we win the cup I will be there to show you this thread :)</p></blockquote>

Thats just nonsense about Datsyuk. He was pimping from Day 1. How long did he spend in Grand Rapid. Oh. yah. Thats right. Next.

Is anyone really saying Howard sucks? I think people are mistaking saying they'd trade Howard with somehow bashing him or thinking he's awful.

For me it's purely a hypothetical that would never happen. But if you could get a truly elite defenseman for a goalie who was very good but not elite, that sounds like a pretty good trade.

As for Datsyuk, he came into the league as a 24 year old and had a pretty good season but definitely seemed affected by the grind of a full NHL season. And his lack of playoff production is no big deal now but was baffling then for a player with so much talent. It's not a knock on Dats, but if you think he was pimping from day one you're either grossly underestimating how good he is now, or have revisionist history of his rookie season. He was a talented player who showed flashes of brilliance. But over the years he's gotten physically stronger, grittier, better defensively and a lot more confident with the puck.

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Datsyuk as a rookie was a lot like Nyquist is now actually. Far from a game changer, but with a huge amount of potential.

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howard and quick's career numbers are remarkably similar but you wouldn't know that judging by all the quick hype

Regular Season

Howard

Gaa: 2.41....917 Sv%

Quick: GAA: 2.31.... 916 sv%

-----------------

Playoffs

Howard: GAA 2.63... 915 sv%

Quick: GAA 2.12... 9.26 sv%

and quick's numbers are severely inflated by the cup run last year in which i think everyone can agree, it was waaaay more about the defense than him coming up with big saves. take last year out, and the numbers are even more similar.

Let's also not forget that howard was a huge reason why the wings made the playoffs in 09-10 when the wings were also struggling to score earlier on in the season simliar to what the kings problems were early on last year

at this point in time i'm not sure how someone can clearly say that quick has the "it" factor but howard does not.

Sure he's getting a lot of attention now that the Kings won the Cup, but most of it is warranted.

I'd take Quick over Howard and I like Howard. But Quick should've been an MVP candidate last season because he kept the Kings in game after game when they couldn't score. He had a tremendous season backstopping a team that could not get it together a lot of the time.

The Kings were very sound defensively come playoff time, but he absolutely made HUGE saves against the Canucks and St. Louis. He didn't have to be as brilliant as the playoffs went along and the Kings got even better.

I wouldn't say that Howard doesn't have it, but Quick certainly had it last season. To date, Quick has performed at a level that Howard hasn't reached. It's not to say that Jimmy won't someday, and there's always the question if Quick will be able to maintain that level of play.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="haroldsnepsts" data-cid="2339437" data-time="1357961508"><p>

Is anyone really saying Howard sucks? I think people are mistaking saying they'd trade Howard with somehow bashing him or thinking he's awful. <br />

<br />

For me it's purely a hypothetical that would never happen. But if you could get a truly elite defenseman for a goalie who was very good but not elite, that sounds like a pretty good trade. <br />

<br />

As for Datsyuk, he came into the league as a 24 year old and had a pretty good season but definitely seemed affected by the grind of a full NHL season. And his lack of playoff production is no big deal now but was baffling then for a player with so much talent. It's not a knock on Dats, but if you think he was pimping from day one you're either grossly underestimating how good he is now, or have revisionist history of his rookie season. He was a talented player who showed flashes of brilliance. But over the years he's gotten physically stronger, grittier, better defensively and a lot more confident with the puck. </p></blockquote>

We are in agreement on howard. He's a good goalie, but not elite. Therefore, we are not going to get anything we need in a trade for him.

Datsyuk, you are being way too critical. He was awesome from the start. Was he as good at 25 as he was at 30 or is now? No. But don't confuse adjusting to the NHL while scoring a point every other game as our third line center with being in the minors. Yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov, Robitaille, Hull, etc. Datsyuk was the new kid on the block. Bowman wasnt gonna sit HOFers for the rookie.

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Honestly, and I hate to bump up this older topic, but I would trade Howard and Franzen to Vancouver for Luongo and Burrows. If I could throw some more in to include Edler then it would be awesome!

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Mrazek's probably even better already so for the right guy who fits our needs.

I count myself as a Mrazek fan but saying he's probably better than a guy who played in the All-Star game is a bit silly. He hasn't even played a single NHL game...

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If the deal was right and the timing was right I might let him go but it would depend alot on Gustafsson and Mrazek and how well they've been able to play. I would hate to see Jimmy go but if it was the right move I'd pull the trigger.

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Are you suggesting that we actually could get an elite player for Jimmy? I mean Jimmy as the main piece, not just a part of some big package.

If so, you must have a pretty liberal definition of the word 'elite'.

Yeah you're right. High quality proven goaltenders in their prime come along all the time. Especially ones who could've conceivably, and should've, won ROTY. And ones that were in the Vezina race until they got injured. It's just that goalies in Jimmy's scenario don't get traded often. Vancouver is asking quite a bit for Roberto Luongo and I wouldn't say Howard is much worse.

What doomsayers and debbie downers on forums fail to realize (aside from the fact they're almost always wrong) is that while they may have number online, in reality no one takes their mopey emo bulls*** seriously. Everyone but Hank and Pav suck, every other team has better players, blah blah blah.

Opie and cr00d like this

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I honestly can't believe some of you think Jimmy would be worthless in a trade. Seriously, give your heads a shake.

Jimmy IS an all-star goalie. He's a workhorse that's averaged over 35 wins per season as a starter. He's averaged a save percentage near .920 as a starter, he's averaged a GAA of below 2.40 as a starter.

There's not a single GM in the NHL who wouldn't want that from their starting goalie, and if you think otherwise, than you just dont know hockey.

Having said that, Anyone who thinks Jimmy could fetch a Weber or Stamkos type player is just dreaming.

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Yeah you're right. High quality proven goaltenders in their prime come along all the time. Especially ones who could've conceivably, and should've, won ROTY. And ones that were in the Vezina race until they got injured. It's just that goalies in Jimmy's scenario don't get traded often. Vancouver is asking quite a bit for Roberto Luongo and I wouldn't say Howard is much worse.

What doomsayers and debbie downers on forums fail to realize (aside from the fact they're almost always wrong) is that while they may have number online, in reality no one takes their mopey emo bulls*** seriously. Everyone but Hank and Pav suck, every other team has better players, blah blah blah.

It seems you're confusing me saying that Jimmy could not be traded for an elite player as saying Jimmy sucks and could not be traded for anything.

Again, elite player. I would consider that a pretty exclusive club. Top 5-10 players at their position. Jimmy won't get that. Maybe if he had won the Calder and the Vezina, or even had any decent playoff success, it might be worth talking about. Right now, no.

If you want to consider 'elite' to mean a larger group, say top-30 at their position, then maybe yeah.

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Howard and a 1st for Karlsson from Ottawa.

That's the only trade i'll accept.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="shoobiedoobin" data-cid="2340150" data-time="1358224363"><p>

Yeah you're right. High quality proven goaltenders in their prime come along all the time. Especially ones who could've conceivably, and should've, won ROTY. And ones that were in the Vezina race until they got injured. It's just that goalies in Jimmy's scenario don't get traded often. Vancouver is asking quite a bit for Roberto Luongo and I wouldn't say Howard is much worse. <br />

<br />

What doomsayers and debbie downers on forums fail to realize (aside from the fact they're almost always wrong) is that while they may have number online, in reality no one takes their mopey emo bulls*** seriously. Everyone but Hank and Pav suck, every other team has better players, blah blah blah. </p></blockquote>

Here's a good way to assess Jimmy's value: how many elite goalies are being considered for trades by anyone? Think Devils fans are wanting Brodeur shopped? Or how about Rangers fans and Lundquist? Fact is Jimmy is average and his best qualities are that he wants to play (gamer) and doesnt create problems. I like him for those reasons, but to ponder over what we could get for him is ridiculous. Low draft picks. End of discussion.

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