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WingedWheel91

The Overreaction Thread

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How is it overreaction to expect the best franchise in all of hockey to get the players they want?

The top UFA players next year will want to cash in too...! So at some point the Wings have to show their financial power again.

Heck the Flyers don't have enough capspace but yet are finding ways to land UFAs.

Building from within is nice but you have to surround the only two remaining superstars with other pro ven guys and this not willing to overpay mantra will not get the job done.

Sent from my BlackBerry

My point is that it it seems as soon as a players name becomes available, we expect Kenny to deliver. That's fine, but don't call for his head every time he doesn't sign or trade for that piece - especially since he has a 1/29 chance to do it, and it usually requires an overpayment either financially or from our farm.

The UFA class next year is better because there is much better talent, the cap will be back up, and Sammy, Bert, Gustavvson, Eaves, and Quincey will be off the books.

In terms of Holmgren, look at the big picture. He has 0 cap space, Giroux,, Schenn, Coutorier, all RFA'S to sign next year and one, bad goalie. Then compare Philadelphias succes since 07 to ours, and its easy to see why these moves aren't always beneficial.

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A softer, more expensive Franzen.

Vanek is younger and a much more effective goalscorer than Franzen. It doesn't get much softer than regular season Franzen.

Is Vanek even on the market? If so he would cost a lot of assets and will be looking for a huge payday one year from now.

It must nice having UFAs wanting to come Detroit and be part of a great team like mentioned and currently...? People should get excited about players like Ribiero or Weiss? Come on that is not Redwings style.

Praising Holland for not overpaying is one thing but the other thing is:

UFAs want to join winners they want to go to teams, which have and can attract stars the Wings being cheap and not willing to overpay won't induce them to join the opposite will happen --->top players are staying away and without them no chance of improving.

At some point the Wings have to show them that they are still a top destination and are willing to pay, if Holland won't do it then by all means it is time for him to become the vice president of hockey operations and let some else run the show.

Wasting Z, Pasha best years like that is a tough pill to swallow..

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If by "spontaneously combust" you mean become a defensive liability via turnovers and poor decision making with pinches and passes, then yes, he will burst into flames.

Yes Smith had a poor half season. We all saw what he was capable of in 2011-2012 though and I unlike most here apparently am quite confident it will turn around for him this year and he will be solid for us. There was way to much pressure on our entire defensive core this year, and with dekeyser on the back end now everything should settle down

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Its not an overreaction to say Holland hasn't been living up to his reputation the last 5 seasons. The guy has without a doubt let the roster get stale and the teams declining results prove that. It started with him hanging on to Draper and Maltby way to long and now hes doing the same with Bert and Cleary. He hasn't made a solid free agent signing since Rafalski and a good trade since Stuart.

Good Signing: Dan Dekeyser

Good Trade: The 18th pick in the 2013 NHL draft for Anthony Mantha and Tyler Bertuzzi.

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I hope we put Samuelsson on regular waivers, send him to GR, and then not even play him. I am disgusted by his lack of class.

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Yes Smith had a poor half season. We all saw what he was capable of in 2011-2012 though and I unlike most here apparently am quite confident it will turn around for him this year and he will be solid for us. There was way to much pressure on our entire defensive core this year, and with dekeyser on the back end now everything should settle down

Exactly.

I know this is the overreaction thread, but as has been said before regarding Smith, he's played a whopping 48 regular season games in the NHL. With more experience he should improve.

In spite of his inexperience, in the playoffs he was essentially tied with Quincey for third in TOI per game and was also on the PK. Part of the reason he looked so shaky was because he got thrown in the deep end.

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Smith is going to be good. He made typical Rookie mistakes in the playoffs. He BY FAR did not cause us to lose to Chicago...our lack of scoring did that. We scored 10 goals in the first 4 games and only 5 the next three... The D was green, yes, but we lost games 6 and 7 by one goal each. Only scored 1 goal in games 5 and 7...all elimination games. I like Smith, I hope is here to stay...we gambled on Ericsson and look how long we waited for Kindl to resemble a NHL defenseman...Smith is worth the same gamble.

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Smith is going to be good. He made typical Rookie mistakes in the playoffs. He BY FAR did not cause us to lose to Chicago...our lack of scoring did that. We scored 10 goals in the first 4 games and only 5 the next three... The D was green, yes, but we lost games 6 and 7 by one goal each. Only scored 1 goal in games 5 and 7...all elimination games. I like Smith, I hope is here to stay...we gambled on Ericsson and look how long we waited for Kindl to resemble a NHL defenseman...Smith is worth the same gamble.

Absolutely. Defensemen always take awhile to develop. I think people are quick to judge because of the Calder trophy hype that was flying around these parts which were unrealistic.

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Smith is going to be good. He made typical Rookie mistakes in the playoffs. He BY FAR did not cause us to lose to Chicago...our lack of scoring did that. We scored 10 goals in the first 4 games and only 5 the next three... The D was green, yes, but we lost games 6 and 7 by one goal each. Only scored 1 goal in games 5 and 7...all elimination games. I like Smith, I hope is here to stay...we gambled on Ericsson and look how long we waited for Kindl to resemble a NHL defenseman...Smith is worth the same gamble.

Agreed. People seem to want the rookies to get more time and not "overripen" but then you also have to expect big mistakes.

I think we've been spoiled watching Lidstrom for so long. But even the top D men sometimes make awful plays. Chara was mostly great in the playoffs but had a couple head scrathing defensive lapses. There's Boyle blowing past Suter on an end to end rush like he was Bobby Orr.

If it happens to those guys, then the kids who haven't even had a full season in the NHL are going to get exposed as they adjust to playing at a new level.

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I will fully admit that the overreacting on here drives me nuts, at times. I agree with your first two points 100%. After that, we tend to have a different view of the situations.

3. This is my primary disagreement. I have seen others on here wanting him bought out to add some fancy new free agent to the team. I couldn't care less about the cap hit coming off the books if a Samuelsson buyout were to occur; it's about making room on the roster for the younger guys. The man can barely stay healthy for more than a handful of games at a time, and if he does... what real good does he do? Do you want him in your top 6, seriously? He's a 3 million dollar third liner. If his presence on the team next season means that one of Tatar or Nyquist does not have a spot, it's absolute garbage. Cap isn't the issue here - it's a useless player taking away from the progress of others.

4. This isn't so much me disagreeing as it is me simply stating: I don't care if we're not good next year, as we were this year. I didn't care how much noise we made this year, either. Part of us doing well may be used as a justification for bringing a guy like Cleary back, at the expense of some younger guys learning from Z and Datsyuk, first hand. I like Cleary, but I feel his time has passed. Success with this team = Holland things he's got a fantastic team = "well, I guess we can still let the kids overripe." I'm not an advocate of bringing in overpriced, lower-tier FA talent - I'm a fan of letting our young guys get the proper experience now with some of the more talented two-way centers in the game.

5. It's fine to look right now and see that FA class, but how many of those guys will actually be there come next summer. Tons of teams lock up their UFA's before they hit the market. Again, I don't want anyone in this year's FA class, but to say that we're saving for next summer has been kind of a cop out for several years now, and was really only a solid idea when Parise and Suter tested the market (Bad outcome, but those are the guys you throw money at.) Don't get me wrong, there are some nice names there (Vanek, Gabs, Kessel, Pominville, etc.)... but how many will actually make it to July 1st?

3. The point is simply that its better to pay Samuelsson to sit in the press box if we aren't going to spend the $10+ Million on THIS free agent class. Much like last year, we started and finished the season with a ton of cap space, so why waste our last buyout on a guy with one year left on his contract when Johan Franzen still has 7 left on his. Foolish to not see how he plays for one more season.

4. Cleary should not get a 3 year contract, but unfortunately I can see why he might. He was our third best player in the playoffs. He finished second in points, and played like a warrior most games. Moving to the eastern conference, he remains one of our ONLY players that plays the style of game you need to to get from most of your roster to battle in the east. Still more polished then ABBY and his point totals reflect that...

5. Next summer, while i know players will still be resigned the free agent class is still going to be MUCH better than this years, but the biggest wildcard will be the compliance buyouts. Next year, the window closes on any chance of cap relief for the remainder of this CBA. Names like Kovalchuk, Parise, Richards, Hossa, are already being talked about.

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Let's not forget that it's highly likely Holland is still trying to orchestrate a trade.

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Dueling fans this morning! LOL.

I don't know what an overreaction is, but if it is fans wanting their teams GM to improve the team, ok consider me part of the overreaction crowd. That does not mean I am going to jump up and down cuss and walk around pissed off. After all, I am just a fan and have no influence to change anything. That being said, what is the job of a GM? His number 1 job is to improve his team. That is true of every GM in every sport. As of today are the RW's a better team? No. As of today are the RW's a worse team? maybe. Is the off season done? No. is there time to still improve? yes.

Now what is going to happen? No idea. if it was September 1 and our roster is still the same, I will be fair more upset than on July 3.

We all know and understand that this is a team that needs a lot of help at forward. We are small, not very physical, and offensively challenged. This hasn't changed. We lack stars in our top 2 lines. But most of us also understood that this years UFA class was weak.

yes I also understand that it is frustrating to watch star players go to other teams while we largely stand pat. Be it UFA's or trades. Yes Holland has made some mistakes-what GM hasn't? Cola, Bert, Sammy are prime examples. But that is done. Now it is time to focus on what WILL happen in the future. Which of course is something that none of us know. Yet.

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Let's not forget that it's highly likely Holland is still trying to orchestrate a trade.

But the price will inevitably be too high and we will be left with extra spare parts.

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Been awhile since I've replied to something here, but I have watched this forum closely for several years. I am a bit upset with our team this time, and forum bullies/ self-proclaimed experts aside, I feel it's necessary to chime in, or at a minimum, share my opinion (whether you want it or not). I think this thread is perfect for that! I don't think it's overreaction for real fans of this team to be upset with the path the Red Wings are headed down. I feel that star players will cost this team more than others in part due to the sad state of our city, and the fact we don't fill our stands anymore. The economy alone says that until some major support/ excitement is generated for this team by the people of Detroit, getting some super-star players into the Big D is going to be difficult. KH needs to pull a shocker deal off just to generate excitement. Let's face it, if you care enough to post something here, you are a fan, and aren't going anywhere, but that base is starting to dwindle, not grow like in the mid to late 90's and early 2000's... KH used to really shake things up. He even proved that this team was capable in the cap era in 2008. Well, it's several years later, and the team is still hanging on the backs of Dats and Hank. I believe Holland can't get those superstar players in here, and as good as our farm team is, they can't move up due to Sammy, Bertuzzi and Cleary. Personally, their run in this playoff, or even that they got there was a fluke. So here's the big question: What's it going to take? You need fans and sponsers to make money, you need money to generate excitement and interest. Hank and Dats are not getting any younger. Where's it going to come from? Overreaction, no. Concerned, very.

I appreciate the response, but I think the star players are the problem and not as much the city. Lecavalier himself said he loved Detroit and would definitely consider coming here, so he met with our GM and was informed that we were not interested in signing a 33 year old, big, slow, centre who has certainly seen a decrease in production to a 5 year contract. It was the right move.

Although Dats and Hank aren't getting any younger, the rest of our team is. In 2014-15 we will roster one of the younger teams in the NHL, which also means your are going to be one of the lower payroll teams and have the ability to overspend where you see fit.

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I don't think anyone's arguing (well, at least...) that Holland wasn't a great GM at one point. What a lot of people are noting is that as we have moved far enough into the new era where we really started feeling the weight of the cap, Holland's struggled to show that he can maneuver well in free agency or with other teams via trade. That is a real problem, right now. It doesn't matter that once upon a time he did this or that; "this or that" from "way back when" have no bearing on "hear and now." Hear and now, he can't figure out how to sign or trade for difference makers, and he's tried plenty.

Holland's let people slip away that he shouldn't. He continues to cling to players he shouldn't. He overpays for mid-level talent based largely it seems on familiarity. He tries to underpay for high-level talent, which ultimately has failed every time. And when he fails, he's the king of revisionists, make no mistake. That guy finds a way to reshape everything that happened as part of some master plan, and it must be working, because there's plenty of non-critical thinkers who keep falling for it and praising Holland because of what he did in another era now long past us.

Oh, I guess it's easy forgetting in an instant that Holland was desperate to throw $9 million plus at both Suter and Parise last summer.

Oh, that's right, I remember now, Holland is so smart for not overpaying for free agents!

Now that we didn't sign them...

"We like our team."

I'm not trying to take anything away from what Holland has done, but if he was as great of a GM as people want to paint him to be in this cap era, he would not be struggling so much in the free agency and trade markets. You can say all you want about what he did in the past, but no one willing to be objective can say that Holland has shown that he has a strong handle, let alone any handle, on helping this team via trade or free agency lately. And like it or not (for the sake of some of ever-shifting argument), trade and free agency are still very important parts of this game.

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Pretty much. This exact team will compete for the cup within the next 2-3 years. With the amount of young talent coming up through the ranks, its safe to say we'll get better every year until Datsyuk retires.

I wouldn't mind a 2nd line center though. That's our only hole

Why delete the thread? Can't the Kenny lovers have a place to have constructive discussions that don't get derailed by certain posters who shall not be named?

Only there is not going to be much help coming through the ranks in the next 2 years that will address the weaknesses of this team. There are not that many big, crash the net scorer's around. Datsyuk and Zetterberg is already on the decline. Sooner or later these missing pieces must be addressed if this team is serious about contending for another Cup before the retirement of the aforementioned. Now would be the time to take a chance on Clarkson or Lecavalier, not three years from now.

Funny how you mention constructive discussion in a thread created in critique of people's frustration with Holland's inaction.

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I don't think anyone's arguing (well, at least...) that Holland wasn't a great GM at one point. What a lot of people are noting is that as we have moved far enough into the new era where we really started feeling the weight of the cap, Holland's struggled to show that he can maneuver well in free agency or with other teams via trade. That is a real problem, right now. It doesn't matter that once upon a time he did this or that; "this or that" from "way back when" have no bearing on "hear and now." Hear and now, he can't figure out how to sign or trade for difference makers, and he's tried plenty.

Holland's let people slip away that he shouldn't. He continues to cling to players he shouldn't. He overpays for mid-level talent based largely it seems on familiarity. He tries to underpay for high-level talent, which ultimately has failed every time. And when he fails, he's the king of revisionists, make no mistake. That guy finds a way to reshape everything that happened as part of some master plan, and it must be working, because there's plenty of non-critical thinkers who keep falling for it and praising Holland because of what he did in another era now long past us.

Oh, I guess it's easy forgetting in an instant that Holland was desperate to throw $9 million plus at both Suter and Parise last summer.

Oh, that's right, I remember now, Holland is so smart for not overpaying for free agents!

Now that we didn't sign them...

"We like our team."

I'm not trying to take anything away from what Holland has done, but if he was as great of a GM as people want to paint him to be in this cap era, he would not be struggling so much in the free agency and trade markets. You can say all you want about what he did in the past, but no one willing to be objective can say that Holland has shown that he has a strong handle, let alone any handle, on helping this team via trade or free agency lately. And like it or not (for the sake of some of ever-shifting argument), trade and free agency are still very important parts of this game.

We were competitive last season. We were the closest team to beating the Cup Champs in the playoffs. Holland may be too conservative sometimes and too loyal sometimes, but atleast he doesn't do a deal just to do a deal if he is afraid it could handcuff the team down the road.

The Lecavalier situation is a perfect example. We all would have liked him RIGHT NOW, and so did Holland it seemed. But in 3 years? In 4? 5? He's already declined a lot from what he once was. Philly is known for handing out crazy contracts that put them in terrible situations after a couple of years, it's no surprise they were the ones willing to take that chance.

Holland isn't the guy that is willing to put everything on one card (like Pittsburgh kinda did this season) and say "we want to win THIS YEAR", but he finds ways to put a decent team out there, even if this last season he got a bit lucky with Dekeyser falling into our laps.

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Only there is not going to be much help coming through the ranks in the next 2 years that will address the weaknesses of this team. There are not that many big, crash the net scorer's around. Datsyuk and Zetterberg is already on the decline. Sooner or later these missing pieces must be addressed if this team is serious about contending for another Cup before the retirement of the aforementioned. Now would be the time to take a chance on Clarkson or Lecavalier, not three years from now.

Funny how you mention constructive discussion in a thread created in critique of people's frustration with Holland's inaction.

I don't think there is an overreaction on the forum for the lack of leadership our GM has shown during the past 4-5 years. People are frustrated and rightly so, we are close to having a great team yet now seem content to sign washed up veterans that fail to contribute and fail to sign guys that might push us over the edge. I completely agree with RB its great we have guys coming up that will compete, it does us no good the next few years and when that talent is here Dats and our studs will be non-factors. Some people get so caught up in the cap and payroll they fail to see where we are failing in the free agent market. Paying Cleary $3mill just shows we aren't serious about skating the best team possible. Holland has been a no show for many years in my opinion.

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Only there is not going to be much help coming through the ranks in the next 2 years that will address the weaknesses of this team. There are not that many big, crash the net scorer's around. Datsyuk and Zetterberg is already on the decline. Sooner or later these missing pieces must be addressed if this team is serious about contending for another Cup before the retirement of the aforementioned. Now would be the time to take a chance on Clarkson or Lecavalier, not three years from now.

Funny how you mention constructive discussion in a thread created in critique of people's frustration with Holland's inaction.

The idea of the thread was also to look at the bigger picture. Living in Toronto, I can understand the frustration from fans who haven't seen there team in the playoffs in 9 years, or who sign Mike Komisarek, Jeff Finger, and Mikhail Grabovski to long term big money contracts. Or trade Tukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft, or how about Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton for Phil Kessel. These are moves that make it legitimate for a fan base to rally for a new GM.

In Detroit, we have been to the playoffs 22 years in a row. Won Cups and Presidents Trophies in both the non cap and salary cap eras and adapted from being a very good high spending team, to a very good cap strickened team. This year, in a "transition year" after losing Lidstrom, Stuart, Hudler and not cashing in last summer - we weren't supposed to make the playoffs. What happened? We took the Cup Champs to the brink and ran out of gas after two seven game series. Oh, and our farm team won the Calder Cup.

Not bad for a rebuild, I'm sure the Leafs fans would take that season after 9 of missing the playoffs and stockpiling draft picks every year. Which is another thing, how on earth have we been to the playoffs every year... Usually finishing with home ice advantage, while trading most of our 1st round picks, and somehow manage to draft a Calder Cup champion in the process? Probably our terrible GM....

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We were competitive last season. We were the closest team to beating the Cup Champs in the playoffs. Holland may be too conservative sometimes and too loyal sometimes, but atleast he doesn't do a deal just to do a deal if he is afraid it could handcuff the team down the road.

The Lecavalier situation is a perfect example. We all would have liked him RIGHT NOW, and so did Holland it seemed. But in 3 years? In 4? 5? He's already declined a lot from what he once was. Philly is known for handing out crazy contracts that put them in terrible situations after a couple of years, it's no surprise they were the ones willing to take that chance.

Holland isn't the guy that is willing to put everything on one card (like Pittsburgh kinda did this season) and say "we want to win THIS YEAR", but he finds ways to put a decent team out there, even if this last season he got a bit lucky with Dekeyser falling into our laps.

So Lecavalier at $4.5 million for 5 years is handcuffing the team and whatever absurd contracts Holland was about to give Parise and Suter for far longer at twice the price were...what then?

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I wish the series against the Chicago would be seen in a different way. The Wings joked away a 3:1 series lead the Hawks played their 4 worst games of the season once they've turned it on the Wings didn't even have a chance - this team is not close to Chicagos level.

Statements like the above are exactly why I would have been fine with missing the playoffs, because at least it would have shown the higher ups that changes are needed standing pat will not get the job done, period. Other teams a re improving getting better each season and the Wings are - like it or not - falling behind which also means it will get harder and harder to attract players in free agency. Holland has done a lot of great things and nobody will take it away from him, but the guy does have problems with overpaying you can't expect UFAs to go to a non contender and take a discount anymore, the current Wings edition is not close to the cup, so the only option to get these guys is to take the risk and sometimes overpay. It may or may not turn out but at least itshows the league, that the Wings are still a force to recognize come draft, free agency and trade deadline...something, this team hasen't been for almost 5 years now.

It would be even longer if Hossa didn't take a paycut in order to get his chance at the cup.

No this is not an overreaction its the pure and sad reality. Like others mentioned, there is still time but the top guys are getting signed soon so waiting and then sign some meh players will not make this team better or bring back the WOW or ROAR effect this team used to own.

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I wish the series against the Chicago would be seen in a different way. The Wings joked away a 3:1 series lead the Hawks played their 4 worst games of the season once they've turned it on the Wings didn't even have a chance - this team is not close to Chicagos level.

.

Big misconception for me.

Game 5 - we were outplayed in Chicagos building.

Game 6 - we outplayed them big time, had a lead after 2 and got screwed on a penalty shot call among others. (Don't get me started)

Game 7 - we lost in overtime in Chicago on a deflected shot.

So how exactly did we win 3/4 games before this stretch, make it close in two of the next 3 without Helm, Dekeyser, and Bertuzzi and still not be considered on there level?

Don't forget that we also played a tough stretch of hockey for 2 weeks to end the season, went 7 against Anaheim (a lot of travel) and then another 7 to the best team all season.

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The idea of the thread was also to look at the bigger picture. Living in Toronto, I can understand the frustration from fans who haven't seen there team in the playoffs in 9 years, or who sign Mike Komisarek, Jeff Finger, and Mikhail Grabovski to long term big money contracts. Or trade Tukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft, or how about Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton for Phil Kessel. These are moves that make it legitimate for a fan base to rally for a new GM.

In Detroit, we have been to the playoffs 22 years in a row. Won Cups and Presidents Trophies in both the non cap and salary cap eras and adapted from being a very good high spending team, to a very good cap strickened team. This year, in a "transition year" after losing Lidstrom, Stuart, Hudler and not cashing in last summer - we weren't supposed to make the playoffs. What happened? We took the Cup Champs to the brink and ran out of gas after two seven game series. Oh, and our farm team won the Calder Cup.

Not bad for a rebuild, I'm sure the Leafs fans would take that season after 9 of missing the playoffs and stockpiling draft picks every year. Which is another thing, how on earth have we been to the playoffs every year... Usually finishing with home ice advantage, while trading most of our 1st round picks, and somehow manage to draft a Calder Cup champion in the process? Probably our terrible GM....

Imagine if our GM had leveraged some of the talent at the junior level to actually secure a player that would have pushed us over the edge in the Chicago series. If winning a Calder Cup is the goal Kenny succeeded. I could care less about it personally or about the successes we have at lower levels if it doesn't translate on the level that matters. We have too much talent and too many players that will never see the ice. I'd rather leverage some of that talent to secure something that would help us now.

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