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The Franzen Hate.

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Guest Playmaker

I really don't think the expectations should only be based only on his salary. Those extended year contracts from 5 years ago, weren't signed with the expectation that any of the players were actually going to play until the end of them. The CBA at the time allowed the teams to be off the hook if the player retired. Those last few years where he was only going to be making a million or whatever, was more of a *wink, wink*, we really expect him to be playing when he's 42. So while the cap hit right now is 3.9, that isn't what he's actually making. With the new CBA the Wings are going to be paying the price for the "only 3.9 million dollar second liner Franzen.

Hossa isn't making in the 7-8 million dollar range either. His cap hit is only a little over 5. Not bad for a second line guy.

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Guest Playmaker

Alfie made 1.5m more if you include his bonuses. Glendenning also had more goals than Ryan Callahan, Filpulla & Purcell from Tampa, Berglund, Morrow, Backes, Roy & Ott for STL, Hartnell

And so far Hartnell, Couturier, Rick Nash, Brassard, Koivu, Sellane, Krejci, Soderberg & Marchand.....ignoring all the other teams. Indeed Franzen has more or as many points as those guys too.....

Not a very useful stat

Yawn, you can stat us to death and ignore all the ones that disprove your theories. Find the stat that refutes that his own coach didn't think he was doing enough.

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Guest DeGraa55

Filppula: on pace for 63 pts

Franzen: on pace for 62 pts

Fil costs about a million more than Franzen, so Tampa should buy him out right?

Franzen buy out a no brainer? U ppl live in a bizarre fantasy land

Hudler: on pace for 59 pts and he costs the same as Franzen. Calgary definitely going to buy him out too *rolls eyes*

What a clown. Do you watch hockey? Fil plays defense and actually makes an effort. Franzen floats floats and does some more floating.

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What a clown. Do you watch hockey? Fil plays defense and actually makes an effort. Franzen floats floats and does some more floating.

Franzen plays D as well.

What about Hudler? Buy out candidate? Nope

BTW, none of u watch hockey. Only me.

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Yawn, you can stat us to death and ignore all the ones that disprove your theories. Find the stat that refutes that his own coach didn't think he was doing enough.

Because Empirical evidence is less useful than emotional reactions to a disappointing end to a tough season where much of the team played badly.?

So the stat that a limited player scored 1 more goal than him, in first round playoffs, where a s*** load of better paid players on better teams got zero goals, less points and worse +/- scores than Franzen means that he's worthless and totally overrides the generally positive statistical output over the course of the last few regular seasons, which give him a better points per dollars ratio than most veterans in the league.

And you accuse me of cherry picking stats? Despite the fact I have several times acknowledged his streaky form and disappointing late season and playoff output, and am trying to look at management decisions from a removed perspective.

I'm sorry that you find my holding a contrary viewpoint so offensive, and that my capacity to elucidate my opinion in a manner that outlines a cohesive argument as to my standpoint makes you yawn.

Too many words?

What a clown. Do you watch hockey? Fil plays defense and actually makes an effort. Franzen floats floats and does some more floating.

Do you watch hockey? Why the f*** would anyone be posting on here the day after we get bumped out of the playoffs if they didn't. Whenever people actually try to use this as a form of argument on these board, the universe gets slightly more inarticulate and intolerant.

Just to correct something I've seen misstated a few times in this thread, Alfie made only 500k more than Franzen this year. Franzens cap hit is just under 4, his salary this year was 5.

Fair enough.....I was thinking in cap hit rather than salary. I stand corrected.

Edited by lomekian

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Guest Playmaker

Where have you been? This isn't exactly a new thing. Franzen has had horrible playoff stats since 2010. This isn't like oh, we lost in the first round and Franzen is the only reason. I also don't get the constant use of "consistent" when applied to Franzen.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both outstanding defensively, but would you see them tell the media they aren't responsible for scoring goals? What he's trying to do is make excuses for his failure. Hey, don't look at me, I'm not the goal scoring guy. I'm the defensive forward. Hey, Boston is just good, whattya do. Not on me. I'm not a goal scorer. What a crock of s***. He would have earned a whole lot more respect if he had said, hey, I didn't get the job done. I'm a veteran on this team and I need to lead and contribute and I didn't do that. It just kind of summed up all that is wrong with Franzen.

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Guest DeGraa55

Franzen plays D as well.

What about Hudler? Buy out candidate? Nope

BTW, none of u watch hockey. Only me.

Lol if Franzen plays defense then I guess we all can get signed to NHL deals to. Playing the same level of defense I mean floating.

The biggest thing you're FORGETTING is the length. If Franzen only has 4 more years like fil then maybe not. But he has six more years at age 34 until he is 40!

Fil has four years left and the deal is up when he is 34-35.

Please tell me you see the difference.

One guy is one yea past the prime years the other is five years past. SIGNED LONGER and he DOES LESS.

Edited by DeGraa55

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"Lazy" "Floater"

I still don't buy into those excuses.

He's never been fast. He's never been physical. He's average at D. He has a good wrister.... So basically when he's not scoring he's going to look pretty invisible no matter what u do. He isn't Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He doesn't have elite top line skills like them that get you noticed even in a slump. And that's why he's not paid like them.

Not true. We've just gotten used to his lazy floating. Early on he was a solid more of a solid two-way forward. He's better than average at D when he wants to be. He used to be on the second PK unit with Cleary.

From 2005, and a reminder how he got his nickname:

To Yzerman's credit, it's a pretty good fit. Franzen, the Wings' third-round pick in the 2004 draft, has impressed teammates and coaches alike with his sturdy, dependable game and a tireless work ethic.

"Yzerman nicknamed him the Mule, and that's what he is: a big, strong guy who just goes over the top of you," coach Mike Babcock said

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-11-06/sports/0511060037_1_kirk-maltby-johan-franzen-mule

tireless work ethic? Goes over the top of you? I kind of remember a guy who would play like that, but haven't seen him in several years. Franzen never goes around leveling guys, but he used to go to the hard areas of the ice.

Yzerman dubbed Franzen "The Mule" because of he was big, strong, and worked really hard. Not because he was an unremarkable player with a good wrist shot.

Several people have mentioned how we need big strong physical forwards to contend with teams like Boston. What's sad is we already have one, he just doesn't play like it anymore.

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Not true. We've just gotten used to his lazy floating. Early on he was a solid more of a solid two-way forward. He's better than average at D when he wants to be. He used to be on the second PK unit with Cleary.

From 2005, and a reminder how he got his nickname:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-11-06/sports/0511060037_1_kirk-maltby-johan-franzen-mule

tireless work ethic? Goes over the top of you? I kind of remember a guy who would play like that, but haven't seen him in several years. Franzen never goes around leveling guys, but he used to go to the hard areas of the ice.

Yzerman dubbed Franzen "The Mule" because of he was big, strong, and worked really hard. Not because he was an unremarkable player with a good wrist shot.

Several people have mentioned how we need big strong physical forwards to contend with teams like Boston. What's sad is we already have one, he just doesn't play like it anymore.

I was going to bring thia up earlier but couldn't find an article to quote from. This is why I am trying to stop calling him Mule and go back to Franzen. Sometimes it slips though.

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Where have you been? This isn't exactly a new thing. Franzen has had horrible playoff stats since 2010. This isn't like oh, we lost in the first round and Franzen is the only reason. I also don't get the constant use of "consistent" when applied to Franzen.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both outstanding defensively, but would you see them tell the media they aren't responsible for scoring goals? What he's trying to do is make excuses for his failure. Hey, don't look at me, I'm not the goal scoring guy. I'm the defensive forward. Hey, Boston is just good, whattya do. Not on me. I'm not a goal scorer. What a crock of s***. He would have earned a whole lot more respect if he had said, hey, I didn't get the job done. I'm a veteran on this team and I need to lead and contribute and I didn't do that. It just kind of summed up all that is wrong with Franzen.

I know. And I've been mildly disagreeing for that whole time. But he's the go to guy for criticism regardless of whether its deserved or not. Despite being in an inconvenient time zone I catch maybe 2/3 of the wings games every year and have done for as long as its been technically possible.

I just don't see things the same way you do. People comparing him with Datsyuk and Zetterberg is pointless. They are superstars and the captains of their respective countries and two of the best two-way players of the last 15 years. And they earn almost twice his cap hit accordingly. Franzen acknowledged he had chances and missed them. As for his mindset, he's always been like that. The guy has confidence issues that undermine his talent and has done since a teen in Sweden.

I think what frustrates me is that the judge, jury and executioner are all out in force, despite the guy basically being the same as he always been, except that 1 amazing playoff series. He's scoring points at almost the same rate (which is what i meant by consistent - ie career wise), despite the team not being as good and despite his injury issues. But yet the last two years its been throw him under the bus time.

And its all about perceived work ethic. I know Ice-hockey is something of a blue collar game, but people either suggest replacing him with inflated FA signings, totally untried kids, or even more overpaid high energy guys with considerably less ability.

I'm not saying he's what we ideally need, or even that i love him as a player. Simply that paying him 20m + to go away while he's still producing at a reasonable rate is pretty stupid if you have no replacement in place. And that for all his faults, he's still a decent player.

Not true. We've just gotten used to his lazy floating. Early on he was a solid more of a solid two-way forward. He's better than average at D when he wants to be. He used to be on the second PK unit with Cleary.

From 2005, and a reminder how he got his nickname:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-11-06/sports/0511060037_1_kirk-maltby-johan-franzen-mule

tireless work ethic? Goes over the top of you? I kind of remember a guy who would play like that, but haven't seen him in several years. Franzen never goes around leveling guys, but he used to go to the hard areas of the ice.

Yzerman dubbed Franzen "The Mule" because of he was big, strong, and worked really hard. Not because he was an unremarkable player with a good wrist shot.

Several people have mentioned how we need big strong physical forwards to contend with teams like Boston. What's sad is we already have one, he just doesn't play like it anymore.

he was only really like that until he started scoring though. I think he had one year of being a workhorse & scoring goals. Then he started becoming a bit more of an outside player, particularly after he bust his knee and got bashed on the head a few times. He's not the player he briefly threatened to be, but still puts up points at almost the same rate, on a worse team.

I think it's a Babcock-Franzen thing. I could see him having success with a new coach. I see a lot of our guys being more productive with another coach but I still think he's a good coach just some players can't play his style

Some truth in this. A lot of players who have left in recent years have subsequently put up more points on worse teams. partly because the onus on defensive responsibility isn't as great everywhere. Fil always played too much d-first as well.

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There are many points and counter points being brought up. But let's go deeper and more in depth.

1. Franzen is a good deal at a 4 mil cap hit. Is that true? What other players have cap hits between 3.75 and 4.25 million? in no order: Hornqvist, van Reimsdyk, Voracek, Callahan, Dubinsky, Oshie, Stewart, Ladd, pavelski, Simmons, Bickell, Duchene, steen, and many others. Of the names listed, how many would you take straight up for franzen? All of them.

2. he plays good D. LOL Don't even know where to start with that one. he is terrible.

3. he can be a decent 3rd liner. Really? 4 million for a 3rd line guy? If he is on the 3rd, then who do we demote? Sheahan? Jurco? tatar? That's is our 3rd line. We need 1 or 2 top 6 guys with size and grit. If that isn't Franzen, then he has no home on this team.

4. For his career Franzen averages 26 goals per 82 regular season games. But he doesn't play 82 games per year. he averages 66 games per non lockout year. taking his goal per game average times 66 games is only 21 goals per year. yes those are averages, some years are better and some are worse. But that is what we are paying 4 million per season for. That isn't very much production for the money.

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After losing to the pens, we had a chance to decide between Franzen and Hossa. I remember people favorite Franzen over Hossa based on playoff performance. Upon that moment, Franzen was known as the playoff beast, especially during the run to the Stanley Cup in 2008. That is why people did not care of his regular season performance even with 4 mil cap hit. For last 3 years, however, Franzen has underperformed both in regular season and playoffs. That is why people criticize his contract. We do not expect him to perform like Pavel or Henrik. But he should score some BIG goals at the RIGHT time. He is very inconsistent without a doubt and he is aging. Without dealing Franzen and old guys, I do not see this team being closer to cup contenders.

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There are many points and counter points being brought up. But let's go deeper and more in depth.

1. Franzen is a good deal at a 4 mil cap hit. Is that true? What other players have cap hits between 3.75 and 4.25 million? in no order: Hornqvist, van Reimsdyk, Voracek, Callahan, Dubinsky, Oshie, Stewart, Ladd, pavelski, Simmons, Bickell, Duchene, steen, and many others. Of the names listed, how many would you take straight up for franzen? All of them.

2. he plays good D. LOL Don't even know where to start with that one. he is terrible.

3. he can be a decent 3rd liner. Really? 4 million for a 3rd line guy? If he is on the 3rd, then who do we demote? Sheahan? Jurco? tatar? That's is our 3rd line. We need 1 or 2 top 6 guys with size and grit. If that isn't Franzen, then he has no home on this team.

4. For his career Franzen averages 26 goals per 82 regular season games. But he doesn't play 82 games per year. he averages 66 games per non lockout year. taking his goal per game average times 66 games is only 21 goals per year. yes those are averages, some years are better and some are worse. But that is what we are paying 4 million per season for. That isn't very much production for the money.

Not making an argument for or against Mule here, but most of those contracts are also RFA contracts. Every one of those players next contract will be much bigger.

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Franzen is counted on heavily to produce for us. Especially with the huge amount of injuries that happen every year. If Franzen was in Hossa's shoes playing on a stacked top 6 with a great defense his numbers would be close to Hossa's.

The numbers for our whole team suck because we have nobody that can stay healthy on a team with some glaring weaknesses. If we had a team like 08 I bet Franzen's numbers would shoot back up. This team is built with thrown away pieces and slapped together with no thought other than Babcock arranging this mess in lines that could make sense.

To me it appears like Holland has been buying time these last few years and I really hope he has a plan because the future looks ugly

Edited by joesuffP

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Franzen's point production per cap hit isn't terrible really, as the supporters are arguing. You guys are right, it's not that bad. BUT, anyone can put up points when playing with Datsyuk.

Look at Abdelkaders numbers. Everyone here agrees that he has no business on the first line with Pav, but he is and because of it his point production has increased. Last year halfway through he got put there and started scoring. This year he put up career highs in goals and assists, playing with Pav whenever he was healthy. My point is playing with Datsyuk the majority of the time nets you probably 10-15 points more than you would get if you weren't with him. Take Pav away and Franzen's 40-45 point guy.

Also before you all tell me that this year he put up decent numbers when Datsyuk was hurt, he benefited from Nyquist's insane run and there's no denying that.

Franzen is a good third liner and third liners shouldn't make the 4th most money out of forwards and 6th most on the team. Or if you want to look at cap hits slide him down two spots for both. Either way, he makes too much money for the player that he is and he's consistently put in an inappropriate role. He's not going to get any better, time to move him.

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There are many points and counter points being brought up. But let's go deeper and more in depth.

1. Franzen is a good deal at a 4 mil cap hit. Is that true? What other players have cap hits between 3.75 and 4.25 million? in no order: Hornqvist, van Reimsdyk, Voracek, Callahan, Dubinsky, Oshie, Stewart, Ladd, pavelski, Simmons, Bickell, Duchene, steen, and many others. Of the names listed, how many would you take straight up for franzen? All of them.

2. he plays good D. LOL Don't even know where to start with that one. he is terrible.

3. he can be a decent 3rd liner. Really? 4 million for a 3rd line guy? If he is on the 3rd, then who do we demote? Sheahan? Jurco? tatar? That's is our 3rd line. We need 1 or 2 top 6 guys with size and grit. If that isn't Franzen, then he has no home on this team.

4. For his career Franzen averages 26 goals per 82 regular season games. But he doesn't play 82 games per year. he averages 66 games per non lockout year. taking his goal per game average times 66 games is only 21 goals per year. yes those are averages, some years are better and some are worse. But that is what we are paying 4 million per season for. That isn't very much production for the money.

1. How many will have cap hits of that size after this season? Maybe half....some have big raises kicking in next year, a couple are UFAs. Some are great deals, and some are towards the end of front loaded deals signed when they were unproven youngsters. It would be just as easy to find higher contract players you wouldn't swap him for. No-one is saying he's a bargain. At present he is fair value that will likely diminish in a couple of years. Also most of those players you have to give up assets to get. Franzen we have to pay 20m to lose......

2. His takeways are always better than his giveaways. Even in his crap recent playoffs. He's never been a minus player in the reg season, even as the team has declined. His only bad playoffs in that respect was last year. The coach trusts him defensively. So he's not D,Z or similar. Sure, but he's better in his own zone than many of the guys you mentioned.

3. This is a fair enough point, but I was thinking of that as his future career trajectory as he gets passed by other younger talent. If we were having the same conversation 2 years from now, when there was someone definitely ready to take his spot, I'd be a lot more comfortable with letting him go. All we have at the moment is promise. At present he's a second liner on a team that desperately needs a top line goals-scorer or power forward. Hopefully no longer having $15m tied up in Quincey, Sammy, Bert, Cleary and Tootoo will help.

4. That average of games played does include the season he blew out his knee in 09/10, which is a little unkind. Other than that, this is the first season he's missed more than a handful of games. This is the first non-lockout season apart from the one he missed mostly through injury that he hasn't scored 28 goals or more and 55 points or more since we won the cup. His worst season since the cup still had a 0.72 PPG scoring rate (worse than this season). Its not amazing production for the money, but if there was an FA with those numbers at that price, we'd be wiling to consider it.

In ideal world we could trade him for someone better. This isn't going to happen, and we don;t yet have anyone who looks likely to take his place.

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After losing to the pens, we had a chance to decide between Franzen and Hossa. I remember people favorite Franzen over Hossa based on playoff performance. Upon that moment, Franzen was known as the playoff beast, especially during the run to the Stanley Cup in 2008. That is why people did not care of his regular season performance even with 4 mil cap hit. For last 3 years, however, Franzen has underperformed both in regular season and playoffs. That is why people criticize his contract. We do not expect him to perform like Pavel or Henrik. But he should score some BIG goals at the RIGHT time. He is very inconsistent without a doubt and he is aging. Without dealing Franzen and old guys, I do not see this team being closer to cup contenders.

Ah....the old Hossa comparison. I think everyone accepts that the GM screwed the pooch on that one, especially as, with a little imagination and forethought, he could have had both.

For someone whose regular season performance people didn't care about, his reg season points and +/- figures stack up pretty well. He is inconsistent, with seemingly no pattern to his hot streaks, I get that its frustrating. But he's a complimentary player who gets paid accordingly, who takes more flack than he deserves due to other worse management decisions elsewhere.

If Holland doesn't re-sign the utterly past it crew, spunk a first and too much salary on Quincey, and had been braver in 09, we'd have hossa on the 1st line, a better D and no-one would be complaining about Franzen's streaky but ultimately decent output.

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Franzen's point production per cap hit isn't terrible really, as the supporters are arguing. You guys are right, it's not that bad. BUT, anyone can put up points when playing with Datsyuk.

Look at Abdelkaders numbers. Everyone here agrees that he has no business on the first line with Pav, but he is and because of it his point production has increased. Last year halfway through he got put there and started scoring. This year he put up career highs in goals and assists, playing with Pav whenever he was healthy. My point is playing with Datsyuk the majority of the time nets you probably 10-15 points more than you would get if you weren't with him. Take Pav away and Franzen's 40-45 point guy.

Also before you all tell me that this year he put up decent numbers when Datsyuk was hurt, he benefited from Nyquist's insane run and there's no denying that.

Franzen is a good third liner and third liners shouldn't make the 4th most money out of forwards and 6th most on the team. Or if you want to look at cap hits slide him down two spots for both. Either way, he makes too much money for the player that he is and he's consistently put in an inappropriate role. He's not going to get any better, time to move him.

Franzen's point scoring ratio is much better when NOT paired with Dats. Always has been. Plays far better with Z or even Fil when he was here. Dats and Franzen has never been nearly as effective as the coach thinks.

BTW. I don't see Abby putting up 0.75 PPG.

As for Money.....His cap hit is lower than D, Z, Alfie, Weiss and if he re-signs, Legwand. And if not legwand another FA worth pursuing may demand more. So he's our 6th best paid forward in real terms.

Ok in salary terms THIS YEAR he's our 4th highest, but that is just cap manipulation, and in the scheme of things is meaningless if you are discussing buyouts.

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2. His takeways are always better than his giveaways. Even in his crap recent playoffs. He's never been a minus player in the reg season, even as the team has declined. His only bad playoffs in that respect was last year. The coach trusts him defensively. So he's not D,Z or similar. Sure, but he's better in his own zone than many of the guys you mentioned.

+/- is a joke stat. Lidstrom proved that by winning the Norris as a minus player. Franzen is not good defensively. Hes not quick, he doesnt use his size to clear, he doesnt actively seek to block shots, and hes not intense as he plays timid for a guy with his size and reach. All of those are traits of good defenders and he lacks them all.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

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Some are making fake arguments. I don't care what Franzen's cap hit is. The question is can he play/produce? Would Cleary be a better player if we only paid him half a million per year? Would datsyuk be a worse player if we only paid him 1 million per year? Of course not. What a player gets paid has nothing to do with how a player currently plays. The big money contracts are awarded in all sports on things you have already done. When Franzen was signed 4 years ago-or was it 5?, the contract was an attempt by the classy Red Wings to cheat the system. Yes I said cheat the system. of course everyone was doing it, but trying to get around the rules is cheating. Back to the point. At that time Franzen had just had his career year and an awesome playoff run. The thought process was a good one. Sign a top performer to a long term deal that benefits the team. makes sense. Since then Franzen has not benefited the team. Now he is not only not benefiting the team, he has become a negative. Every year he has to be coddled and have his hand held because his feelings get hurt or whatever it is.

Now we have 1 chance to get out from under this giant rock that is weighing us down. he is not a leader, he is a bad influence on the young players-lack of effort/drive/focus, and doesn't or can't do what we need him to do. He isn't a top 6 power forward and that is the role we need him to perform. It is time to part company. Buy him out and get rid of the cap hit worries.

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HATE!!!

Franzen makes this so easy! All that talent but no heart... teases for stretches then let's us down when we need him most. Helm farts more heart and desire then Franzen will ever be able to possess and maintain.

I hope he gets traded for someone that cares when it matters... and I will never ever forget that Franzen was signed over Hossa!!!

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