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The Franzen Hate.

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Beats the cost of a buyout as many are suggesting.

YEP!

After what the Tigers just gave Miggy and what they were offering Scherzer, I have no doubts that our owner will give every last dime away to see this team raise a banner one more time before he passes and if that means getting rid of the cancerous attitudes and efforts like Franzen's, I'm sure he'll tell you good riddance. He's not taking that cash with him when he goes, and his family is well more than set up for financial success in the future.

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I don't know about Franzen/Hossa, but I'll tell you this: there was absolutely NO point in tradng Filppula for Weiss. Filppula put up comparable numbers with less ice time and already spent time on our power play and building relationships with the guys on the team. I was indifferent to moving on from Filppula, but when they signed Weiss I was NOT a happy fan.

What a waste. Sure, he may turn out to play a significant role as a #2 C... but didn't we already have that in Filppula? Weiss was not leaps and bounds better, he had significant injury questions (shoulder, knee, groin, and wrist), and put up #2 numbers as a #1 guy. Hmm.... could you imagine a 25/30 center on our team this year? That might have been the catalyst to get to the #7 or #6 seed. Shame.

Filpuula showed that he's not capable of centering the second line on a consistent basis. Every year but one he was either hurt, ineffective, or both. His one big year he spent most of it on Zetterberg's wing and followed up that season with one of his worst. He spent his last season in Detroit looking disinterested, lazy, and completely ineffective. There was no reason to bring him back, particularly not at $25 mil over 5 years. If he comes close next year to producing at the level he did this year, it will be the first time in his career that he did it back to back seasons.

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Filpuula showed that he's not capable of centering the second line on a consistent basis. Every year but one he was either hurt, ineffective, or both. His one big year he spent most of it on Zetterberg's wing and followed up that season with one of his worst. He spent his last season in Detroit looking disinterested, lazy, and completely ineffective. There was no reason to bring him back, particularly not at $25 mil over 5 years. If he comes close next year to producing at the level he did this year, it will be the first time in his career that he did it back to back seasons.

Get outta here, what we're talking about is production, not attitude (good luck proving that). As far as being "completely ineffective", let's dive into some advanced metrics...

Here's something you won't hear from ANY other source but myself (I've yet to find someone who creates these kinds of statistical records-- mind you, this is using simple algebra (division) from known statistics found at and verified by Hockey-Reference, ESPN, and NHL.com).

In games played vs. total goals scored while on ice... Weiss = .62 goals/game FOR; Filppula = .61 goals/game FOR... Weiss = .65 goals/game AGAINST and Filppula = .51 goals/page AGAINST.

So they are equally effective as members of a team in scoring, but Filppula is SIGNIFICANTLY more effective on the other end AGAINST. And, as far as the "luck" factor, this is over the course of nearly 500 games for Filppula and 650 for Weiss, so throw that out. As far as the "situation" factor, this was simply a 5-on-5 and 4-on-4 even strength comparison, NOT including Power Play or Penalty Killing situations.

Mind you, I don't have finalized statistics for this year, but we all know that'll lean HEAVILY in favor of Filppula as well.

So get out of here with your conjecture. If you can't point to specific situations and can only speak in generalities, I'm through having grown up conversations with you.

Edited by _SP_

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I don't know about Franzen/Hossa, but I'll tell you this: there was absolutely NO point in tradng Filppula for Weiss. Filppula put up comparable numbers with less ice time and already spent time on our power play and building relationships with the guys on the team. I was indifferent to moving on from Filppula, but when they signed Weiss I was NOT a happy fan.

What a waste. Sure, he may turn out to play a significant role as a #2 C... but didn't we already have that in Filppula? Weiss was not leaps and bounds better, he had significant injury questions (shoulder, knee, groin, and wrist), and put up #2 numbers as a #1 guy. Hmm.... could you imagine a 25/30 center on our team this year? That might have been the catalyst to get to the #7 or #6 seed. Shame.

Filppula was offered a contract and wanted to test free agency instead, he then came back later to accept the original offer butby then it was too late and we spent the money elsewhere. Filppula left, we didn't just "let him walk" and we got the best replacement for him available

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Get outta here, what we're talking about is production, not attitude (good luck proving that). As far as being "completely ineffective", let's dive into some advanced metrics...

Here's something you won't hear from ANY other source but myself (I've yet to find someone who creates these kinds of statistical records-- mind you, this is using simple algebra (division) from known statistics found at and verified by Hockey-Reference, ESPN, and NHL.com).

In games played vs. total goals scored while on ice... Weiss = .62 goals/game FOR; Filppula = .61 goals/game FOR... Weiss = .65 goals/game AGAINST and Filppula = .51 goals/page AGAINST.

So they are equally effective as members of a team in scoring, but Filppula is SIGNIFICANTLY more effective on the other end AGAINST. And, as far as the "luck" factor, this is over the course of nearly 500 games for Filppula and 650 for Weiss, so throw that out. As far as the "situation" factor, this was simply a 5-on-5 and 4-on-4 even strength comparison, NOT including Power Play or Penalty Killing situations.

Mind you, I don't have finalized statistics for this year, but we all know that'll lean HEAVILY in favor of Filppula as well.

So get out of here with your conjecture. If you can't point to specific situations and can only speak in generalities, I'm through having grown up conversations with you.

That statistic doesn't take into account that Weiss was on the ice with a horrible Panthers team while Filppula was playing with the Wings and playing with Z often. Your stat is a team stat as much as it's a personal stat because, obviously, more than one person is on the ice and contributes to goals against or for.

For the record, I always liked Fil and was sad to see him go, but he really did have a poor season leading up to his contract year. I think it would have been a big gamble to give him the money he was asking for. Weiss was also a gamble - coming off of injury, but he has years of proven pruduction. I think it really will take a year or two more to see which would have been the better choice. Obviously, with Weiss's problems and Fil having a good year, right now it seems like Fil, but they both have 5 year deals.

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Get outta here, what we're talking about is production, not attitude (good luck proving that). As far as being "completely ineffective", let's dive into some advanced metrics...

Here's something you won't hear from ANY other source but myself (I've yet to find someone who creates these kinds of statistical records-- mind you, this is using simple algebra (division) from known statistics found at and verified by Hockey-Reference, ESPN, and NHL.com).

In games played vs. total goals scored while on ice... Weiss = .62 goals/game FOR; Filppula = .61 goals/game FOR... Weiss = .65 goals/game AGAINST and Filppula = .51 goals/page AGAINST.

So they are equally effective as members of a team in scoring, but Filppula is SIGNIFICANTLY more effective on the other end AGAINST. And, as far as the "luck" factor, this is over the course of nearly 500 games for Filppula and 650 for Weiss, so throw that out. As far as the "situation" factor, this was simply a 5-on-5 and 4-on-4 even strength comparison, NOT including Power Play or Penalty Killing situations.

Mind you, I don't have finalized statistics for this year, but we all know that'll lean HEAVILY in favor of Filppula as well.

So get out of here with your conjecture. If you can't point to specific situations and can only speak in generalities, I'm through having grown up conversations with you.

Weiss was against the other teams' top players. Filppula was against other teams' second and third lines. It also sounds a lot like another way to say Filpulla's +/- is better.

G-A-PTS-GP by year for Filppula in Detroit

10-7-17-73

19-17-36-78

12-28-40-80

11-24-35-55

16-23-39-71

23-43-66-81

9-8--17-41

Weiss in Florida

6-15-21-77

12-17-29-50

9-12-21-41

20-28-48-74

13-29-42-74

14-47-61-78

28-32-60-80

21-28-49-76

1-3-4-17

Weiss has been more consistent than Filppula throughout his career. Filppula has been up and down and up and down.

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Remember those years when Weiss was the #2 C behind Olli Jokinen? Or played on his wing? Or played with Nate Horton or David Booth? Yeah... we can play this game allll day long.

Weiss played an average of 18 minutes every game over 600 games. Filppula averaged 16.25 minutes over 475 games. Let's prorate Weiss down to the same number of "games"... he still would have played over an additional 42 periods worth of time over the same number of games. That's crazy. Of course his yearly statistics are going to look "more consistent" -- he was on the ice a WHOLE LOT LONGER! That's an additional 6 periods of ice time every year for six years. That may not sound like a lot of time, but when you're talking actually time on ice... that's 240 more minutes each year. And Filppula put up a point every thirty minutes of ice time. So let's give him another 8 points each of those years.... he reaches or succeeds Weiss in all but one. hmm....

Edited by _SP_

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And yet Filppula had one season over 40 points in Detroit. Do his PPM average by season, it'll be all over the place.

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2011-2012 (last full season for both players) Filppula ends up with 9 more points even with less ice time/game. 2010-2011 prorated w/ ice time Filppula ends up with 2 more points. 2009-2010 = injured Filppula (same reason we're throwing out this year for Weiss). 2008-2009 = Weiss whomps him. 2007-2008 = 3 more points w/ Filppula.

So one full season that Weiss wins out, regardless of the added time. Filppula wins out one full season even with less time. The others are pushes based on ice time at even strength being significantly in Weiss's favor.

Add eight more points to Filppula's totals (remember, he gets a point at a 30min-per-ice-time clip) and he's over on ALL FIVE of his full seasons in Detroit (sans 1st, which he got 17 points in 73 games while Weiss got 21 points in 77 games of his first season, also threw that out as rookie anomoly).

Simply put, the argument that Weiss played with better plays is nominal (Jokinen/Booth/Horton) and he had significantly more ice time.

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I don't know about Franzen/Hossa, but I'll tell you this: there was absolutely NO point in tradng Filppula for Weiss. Filppula put up comparable numbers with less ice time and already spent time on our power play and building relationships with the guys on the team. I was indifferent to moving on from Filppula, but when they signed Weiss I was NOT a happy fan.

What a waste. Sure, he may turn out to play a significant role as a #2 C... but didn't we already have that in Filppula? Weiss was not leaps and bounds better, he had significant injury questions (shoulder, knee, groin, and wrist), and put up #2 numbers as a #1 guy. Hmm.... could you imagine a 25/30 center on our team this year? That might have been the catalyst to get to the #7 or #6 seed. Shame.

They didn't move on from Flip. Filppula moved on from the Wings.

The Wings paid nearly as much for Weiss as they could have to retain Filppula. They likely had a good idea what it would take to retain Flip, as well as the higher cost it would take to replace him on the open market. If you believe Babcock, Holland offered Flip a 7 year contract.

From everything I've heard and read, it sounds like Filppula moved on to greener pastures where he'd play more minutes. I don't fault him for that at all.

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And yet Filppula had one season over 40 points in Detroit. Do his PPM average by season, it'll be all over the place.

With Henrik Zetterberg as his center that entire season, no less.

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How different would this year have been if Franzen's money went to Hossa and Weiss' money went to Fil?

It would have looked a lot like Hossa running around looking for his extra mill and a half.

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After what the Tigers just gave Miggy and what they were offering Scherzer, I have no doubts that our owner will give every last dime away to see this team raise a banner one more time before he passes and if that means getting rid of the cancerous attitudes and efforts like Franzen's, I'm sure he'll tell you good riddance. He's not taking that cash with him when he goes, and his family is well more than set up for financial success in the future.

tigers better win quick because as soon as Mr. I dies the family is gonna sell the Tigers Edited by PumpkinEscobar

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Back to the Franzen hate! LOL

The other day, might have been over the weekend I saw a quote from Holland where he was talking about Mantha making the team. In the quote he said that Mantha only stays in Detroit if he proves he is top 6 worthy like guys named Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, and Franzen. Think about that. Franzen as a top 6 forward? WTF?????? Go back and read through this thread, even those that defend Franzen agree that he should be on the 3rd line where he doesn't have to face the pressure. The fact that Holland considers a guy like Franzen a top 6 forward in the NHL is truly freightening! He is not a top 6 player, nor has he ever been one in his 9 year NHL career. It is thoughts and beliefs like this that have lead to the demise of the RW's. This is why we are now a sub .500 team-we only won 39 games this year!


Let me ask a classic what if question. If Franzen was bought out-which yes I agree isn't going to happen, what type of free agent contract do you think he would get from other NHL teams? If he decided to stay in NA and play-I think there is a better than 50-50 chance he would go home, I can't see him getting anymore than a 1 year deal for maybe 3 million. 34 year old sub 20 goal scorers with multiple concussions are not going to get big time money or term. yet we are blessed to have him under contract for 6 more years!

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Is Franzen a top line forward in the NHL? Probably not on most teams... Is Franzen a top 6 forward in the NHL? Absolutely, on just about every team... Where do people come up with this stuff?...

Get over it! Franzen isn't going anywhere and for good reason. His production will not be replaced with the money he costs. And FYI, if he were to be bought out (which he most definitely won't) he would be one of the hottest names to hit free agency, and there would be a lineup of 20+ teams bidding for his services.

Edited by krsmith17

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Back to the Franzen hate! LOL

The other day, might have been over the weekend I saw a quote from Holland where he was talking about Mantha making the team. In the quote he said that Mantha only stays in Detroit if he proves he is top 6 worthy like guys named Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, and Franzen. Think about that. Franzen as a top 6 forward? WTF?????? Go back and read through this thread, even those that defend Franzen agree that he should be on the 3rd line where he doesn't have to face the pressure. The fact that Holland considers a guy like Franzen a top 6 forward in the NHL is truly freightening! He is not a top 6 player, nor has he ever been one in his 9 year NHL career. It is thoughts and beliefs like this that have lead to the demise of the RW's. This is why we are now a sub .500 team-we only won 39 games this year!

Let me ask a classic what if question. If Franzen was bought out-which yes I agree isn't going to happen, what type of free agent contract do you think he would get from other NHL teams? If he decided to stay in NA and play-I think there is a better than 50-50 chance he would go home, I can't see him getting anymore than a 1 year deal for maybe 3 million. 34 year old sub 20 goal scorers with multiple concussions are not going to get big time money or term. yet we are blessed to have him under contract for 6 more years!

Franzen is a top 6 forward. And it's not just Holland saying that, it's his scouts, coaches, and other hockey brains as well. Unless you think he irrationally ignores his advisors. You, Degrass, and Leftwinger, seem to be the only ones here that are so blindingly hateful of him that you support a buyout. Get real.

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Back to the Franzen hate! LOL

The other day, might have been over the weekend I saw a quote from Holland where he was talking about Mantha making the team. In the quote he said that Mantha only stays in Detroit if he proves he is top 6 worthy like guys named Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, and Franzen. Think about that. Franzen as a top 6 forward? WTF?????? Go back and read through this thread, even those that defend Franzen agree that he should be on the 3rd line where he doesn't have to face the pressure. The fact that Holland considers a guy like Franzen a top 6 forward in the NHL is truly freightening! He is not a top 6 player, nor has he ever been one in his 9 year NHL career. It is thoughts and beliefs like this that have lead to the demise of the RW's. This is why we are now a sub .500 team-we only won 39 games this year!

Let me ask a classic what if question. If Franzen was bought out-which yes I agree isn't going to happen, what type of free agent contract do you think he would get from other NHL teams? If he decided to stay in NA and play-I think there is a better than 50-50 chance he would go home, I can't see him getting anymore than a 1 year deal for maybe 3 million. 34 year old sub 20 goal scorers with multiple concussions are not going to get big time money or term. yet we are blessed to have him under contract for 6 more years!

You're pretty far off base here, he would probably get a 3 year 15-18 million dollar deal, that's how it works now.

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ET, while agree that FA is out of whack, he wouldn't get multiple years. To many hits to the head for that now at his age. No upside to be found anymore.

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Top 6? Ok just some random numbers from the 2013/14 season. Rankings are just among forwards.

139th in Goals

112th is assists

335th in games played

102th in TOI/G

110th in face off win %

122nd in points

221st in hits

245th in blocked shots

289th in takeaways

Those are top 6 numbers for you? Ok if you take the truly generous position that there are 180 top 6 forwards in the NHL-which of course is just silly, then maybe you could find some way to say Franzen is a top 6 forward.

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The major one that sticks out to me is the 3rd one, 335th in games played. He missed a lot of time last year, as well as the year before. That doesn't necessarily mean he will continue to miss the same amount of games the next couple years.

I find it absolutely hilarious that you took the time to go through all those statistics but you failed to mention (in my mind) the most important one... Points Per Game. He finished 61st in the league out of 30 teams. That isn't a top 6 forward? Ridiculous... The guy averages around 0.75 points per game consistently every single year and he isn't considered a top 6 forward? Crazy...

Edited by krsmith17
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No he averages .61 points per game for his career-regular season numbers. But points is less important than goals, which is after all his job: scoring goals. In his 9 full seasons in the NHL he has 1 season over 30 goals and 3 more where he scored over 20. That leaves 5 seasons out of the 9 in his career he failed to score at least 20 goals. We know he doesn't hit, he doesn't play D, and it is 50-50 at best that you can call him a goal scorer. if not that, then what the hell is he getting paid to do? other than generate a lot of hate mail on the internet! LOL

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Top 6? Ok just some random numbers from the 2013/14 season. Rankings are just among forwards.

139th in Goals

112th is assists

335th in games played

102th in TOI/G

110th in face off win %

122nd in points

221st in hits

245th in blocked shots

289th in takeaways

Those are top 6 numbers for you? Ok if you take the truly generous position that there are 180 top 6 forwards in the NHL-which of course is just silly, then maybe you could find some way to say Franzen is a top 6 forward.

Why is the definition of top six forward being the top 180 players in the NHL absurd? 6 top six players per team x 30 teams = 180, thus the top 180 players in the NHL qualify as top 6 players. In that definition, Franzen fits the bill with some of the numbers you posted, 139th in goals, 112th in assists, 102nd in TOI/G, 110th in faceoff win %, 122nd in points. This point becomes a little more pronounced when you factor in his 335th in games played. 139th in goals, 112th in assists despite being 335th in games played. That puts him at 67th place in points per game, which would make Franzen a top 3 forward in the league (the top 90 players in the league), but maybe your definition of top six forward is the top 90 players in the NHL, but either way his point pace fits the bill. I don't know where he ranks league-wide for cap-hit, but considering it's less than 4M/season, I have to imagine that it's not your definition of "top six" kind of money.

I get the frustration with Franzen. He doesn't bring it every night, he floats, he's streaky. But to say he's not a top six player in the NHL? That's pushing it.

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Ok, sorry, he averages around 0.75 over the past 6 seasons, but why do the past 6 seasons matter? Let's look at his first 3 seasons as well right? That will sure give a good indication of the current player he is... "But points is less important than goals". Lol in what world? An assist is just as important as a goal as long as the puck is going in the oppositions net...

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On the three or so nights a month that he's an engaged participant in the game...Franzen is a top six forward. The rest of the time he's pushing Ogey Ogilthorpe's one night stand for the spot as last chick on the pinwheel.....

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On the three or so nights a month that he's an engaged participant in the game...Franzen is a top six forward. The rest of the time he's pushing Ogey Ogilthorpe's one night stand for the spot as last chick on the pinwheel.....

Don't say that some people think he is the best thing since slice bread.

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