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The Franzen Hate.


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#141 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:15 PM

Nope. I don't want either of them back and said as much in the GDT yesterday. Well, possibly Alfie because he was hurt, but I'm more than fine with neither playing again for the Red Wings. Just because other players stunk doesn't excuse Franzen being a bum in the playoffs for the past four years.


Ur right, I was just pointing out that everyone not named Datsyuk or Zetterberg had an average to bad playoff outing

#142 Shinzaki

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:27 PM

Franzen isn't a $4 million consistent scorer....that's the point.  He's so inconsistent in terms of his effort and output that he becomes a detriment to the team for long stretches.  Dump him let every other UFA walk and make every effort to sign Iginla...or Stasny...hell, I'd even let Teemu Pulkinnen have a crack at Franzen's spot before I'd bring Sweden's answer to Prince Fielder back for another year of frustration and "what me worry" attitude when the team is getting drilled



#143 lomekian

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:46 PM

I think we should assume he will not be bought out. So the question, IMO, is what role should we ask him to fill? IMO we should put him back to what he was before his offensive breakout -- a checking-line guy (I prefer him at centre) who shadows the other team's big men (Getzlaf, Thornton et al) and kills penalties. He was very effective in that role and chipped in with the odd goal, including a series winner in OT when he was still a third- or fourth-liner. I think if he was returned to that role, he would not only excel in it, he would regain some of his lost confidence and he'd be worth most of the $4M he's going to collect each of the next six years. Any offence would be a bonus, but we'd stop relying on him to be a big scorer and put that mantle on younger players like Tatar, Nyquist and Mantha.

 

I see him as a guy that bounces between 2nd and third line depending on form. He plays better the less is expected of him (Babcock's calling him out another example of why for all his good points he is not as smart as Bowman, who treated everyone very differently), and is still getting over injury issues, from a mental standpoint at least. Just sticking on the 4th line doesn't work unless we have more point producers higher up the roster. If Jurco or Mantha break out, then all well and good, or if we pick up a genuine scorer on FA.

 

Problem is that this roster is short of people with goal-scoring potential, which makes Franzen worth more to us than he otherwise would be. He's still not Sammy bad, and despite variable courage and on-ice work rate, he knees functioning make him more worthwhile than Cleary or Bert or at this stage Weiss. I also think both he and Legwand were misused by Babcock.



#144 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:49 PM

 

Your arguments are littered with only stats, and not what is played on the ice. It's obvious you turn a blind eye to the turnovers he creates, and I'm assuming it's someone else fault for his give away yesterday. Most people seem on the same page about the same flaws with Franzen, but points are all that seem to matter to you. I don't care if he scores 50 points a year, we can put another player to play with Datsyuk that will do that and more.

 

I compared Franzen with Cleary to show how broken your comparison of Franzen vs Nyquist really is.

 

So because I use stats to support my argument I must not be a real fan who watches games? Come on man, not only is that a fallacious argument, but it's a low blow to my wings ego. I don't spend an inordinate amount of time here and have almost 2,000 posts because I'm a casual fan.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that despite whatever problem you have with Franzen, he's worth 4 million, and could probably get 4.5 per year on the FA market. You don't buyout guys who are worth their cap hit. You don't even buyout guys who are slightly overpaid.

 

I agree we can put a better player with Datsyuk too. I don't want want Franzen playing with Datsyuk. I've said he's a 2nd liner time and time again in this thread. I consider Datsyuk a 1st liner.



#145 lomekian

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:55 PM

They also all make under 1 million and aren't 34 years old and declining.

Franzen can be an effective defensive forward good for 50 points a year but that's not what he's here for. He's here to be our goal scored and until he's gone people will get pissed when he doesn't score goals. The guy doesn't suck, he's just in the wrong role. Which is why I say we should trade him. Someone will give us something for him.

 

Good call...the problem with trading him is the danger if he goes somewhere he's not happy and calls it a day, and the cap hit therein. Much easier to keep him going and control his LITR status if he stays. With the likes of Jurco, Mantha, Pulks, Janmark, AA the greek, and maybe who we draft this year all possible scoring line players in the not too distant future, in addition to tats and nyquist, & the likelehood of having to try to get Weiss going, and the pressure to re-sign legwand due to what was given up, JF as a 3rd line winger on the wings next year, who will try to roll 4 lines, suddenly is a real possibility.



#146 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:59 PM

 

Your arguments are littered with only stats, and not what is played on the ice. It's obvious you turn a blind eye to the turnovers he creates, and I'm assuming it's someone else fault for his give away yesterday. Most people seem on the same page about the same flaws with Franzen, but points are all that seem to matter to you. I don't care if he scores 50 points a year, we can put another player to play with Datsyuk that will do that and more.

 

I compared Franzen with Cleary to show how broken your comparison of Franzen vs Nyquist really is.

 

Oh, so because of yesterdays turnover Franzen is now labeled as an overall turnover machine? Yeah, that was a bad give away. But it was also just one of only two give aways he had in the PO's. He also lead the team in take-aways during the PO's with 4. Now those stats do have some recording errors, but they still don't paint the picture of a guy who consistently gives away pucks.

 

Sincerely,
Guy who only reads boxscores



#147 lomekian

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:03 PM

 

The Wings didn't hand him an 11 year contract because they wanted to lock up a 2nd liner for the next decade.  Especially one who doesn't score in the playoffs.  They may know exactly what he is now, but it's not what they hoped he'd be in 2009.

 

It is why Franzen is likely staying here though.  He'll put up his points assuming he stays healthy.  He just isn't THE guy and never will be.  So the Wings can keep him for some second line scoring during the regular season but need to find a goal scorer who plays like he gives a s*** and will put up points in the playoffs.

 

I'm guessing it'll be at least a couple more seasons until he becomes so intolerable that Holland will buy him out or make a trade.  

 

Agree - If the wings want a premium goal scorer, they need to get one and pay for him. Franzen is a 2nd liner who has bad streaks and good streaks. He is paid accordingly.....he should have been paid a little more for 2 years and less down the line, but right now he gets paid what he's worth in comparison to others.


His goals come in an increasingly smaller amount of games. Don't get caught up on 30 goals a year. If you count them by games its probably like 15. He's fine if we use him as a third liner but Babcock won't. So get rid of him. I think we need to re-evaluate the roles of players. All of our frustrations come from players who are forced into the wrong roles. Franzen is not a top 6 scorer. He is occasional secondary scoring forward. Abdelkader is not a top line power forward, and hence frustration there. Holland and Babcock need to recalibrate the lineup based on roles players can actually play and go from there. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

 

I think we can all find common ground on this one...



#148 lomekian

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:24 PM

He does have those skills for about 10 games a year.  Which is why he gets the criticism.  You see this big hulking guy out there with a wicked shot, skating hard, throwing his body around, going to the net, backchecking, being a pest.  The whole package.  Then there's the other 70 games of the year.  

 

Luke Glendenning scored more goals than Franzen in the playoffs and Franzen makes 8 times as much.  Alfredsson scored more goals in less games than Franzen in the regular season and made less money.  So if you want to compare stats...........  

Alfie made 1.5m more if you include his bonuses. Glendenning also had more goals than Ryan Callahan, Filpulla & Purcell from Tampa, Berglund, Morrow, Backes, Roy & Ott for STL, Hartnell

And so far Hartnell, Couturier, Rick Nash, Brassard, Koivu, Sellane, Krejci, Soderberg & Marchand.....ignoring all the other teams. Indeed Franzen has more or as many points as those guys too.....

 

Not a very useful stat.



#149 nawein

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:29 PM

Alfie made 1.5m more if you include his bonuses. Glendenning also had more goals than Ryan Callahan, Filpulla & Purcell from Tampa, Berglund, Morrow, Backes, Roy & Ott for STL, Hartnell
And so far Hartnell, Couturier, Rick Nash, Brassard, Koivu, Sellane, Krejci, Soderberg & Marchand.....ignoring all the other teams. Indeed Franzen has more or as many points as those guys too.....
 
Not a very useful stat.


Just to correct something I've seen misstated a few times in this thread, Alfie made only 500k more than Franzen this year. Franzens cap hit is just under 4, his salary this year was 5.

#150 wingnut_05

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:40 PM

for this quote alone, he should go. 

"I always want to play defense first and make sure I don't make any mistakes in my own end and try to help out the D"

 

http://www.mlive.com...of_product.html



#151 Playmaker

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:41 PM

I really don't think the expectations should only be based only on his salary.  Those extended year contracts from 5 years ago, weren't signed with the expectation that any of the players were actually going to play until the end of them.  The CBA at the time allowed the teams to be off the hook if the player retired. Those last few years where he was only going to be making a million or whatever, was more of a *wink, wink*, we really expect him to be playing when he's 42.  So while the cap hit right now is 3.9, that isn't what he's actually making.  With the new CBA the Wings are going to be paying the price for the "only 3.9 million dollar second liner Franzen.  

 

Hossa isn't making in the 7-8 million dollar range either.  His cap hit is only a little over 5. Not bad for a second line guy.



#152 Playmaker

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:03 PM

Alfie made 1.5m more if you include his bonuses. Glendenning also had more goals than Ryan Callahan, Filpulla & Purcell from Tampa, Berglund, Morrow, Backes, Roy & Ott for STL, Hartnell

And so far Hartnell, Couturier, Rick Nash, Brassard, Koivu, Sellane, Krejci, Soderberg & Marchand.....ignoring all the other teams. Indeed Franzen has more or as many points as those guys too.....

 

Not a very useful stat

Yawn, you can stat us to death and ignore all the ones that disprove your theories.  Find the stat that refutes that his own coach didn't think he was doing enough.  



#153 DeGraa55

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:54 PM

Filppula: on pace for 63 pts
Franzen: on pace for 62 pts

Fil costs about a million more than Franzen, so Tampa should buy him out right?

Franzen buy out a no brainer? U ppl live in a bizarre fantasy land
Hudler: on pace for 59 pts and he costs the same as Franzen. Calgary definitely going to buy him out too *rolls eyes*



What a clown. Do you watch hockey? Fil plays defense and actually makes an effort. Franzen floats floats and does some more floating.

#154 lomekian

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:17 PM

for this quote alone, he should go. 

"I always want to play defense first and make sure I don't make any mistakes in my own end and try to help out the D"

 

http://www.mlive.com...of_product.html

 

Why?



#155 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:22 PM

What a clown. Do you watch hockey? Fil plays defense and actually makes an effort. Franzen floats floats and does some more floating.


Franzen plays D as well.

What about Hudler? Buy out candidate? Nope
BTW, none of u watch hockey. Only me.

#156 lomekian

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:32 PM

Yawn, you can stat us to death and ignore all the ones that disprove your theories.  Find the stat that refutes that his own coach didn't think he was doing enough.  

Because Empirical evidence is less useful than emotional reactions to a disappointing end to a tough season where much of the team played badly.?

 

So the stat that a limited player scored 1 more goal than him, in first round playoffs,  where a s*** load of better paid players on better teams got zero goals, less points and worse +/- scores  than Franzen means that he's worthless and totally overrides the generally positive statistical output over the course of the last few regular seasons, which give him a better points per dollars ratio than most veterans in the league.

 

And you accuse me of cherry picking stats? Despite the fact I have several times acknowledged his streaky form and disappointing late season and playoff output, and am trying to look at management decisions from a removed perspective.

 

I'm sorry that you find my holding a contrary viewpoint so offensive, and that my capacity to elucidate my opinion in a manner that outlines a cohesive argument as to my standpoint makes you yawn. 

Too many words?


What a clown. Do you watch hockey? Fil plays defense and actually makes an effort. Franzen floats floats and does some more floating.

 

Do you watch hockey? Why the f*** would anyone be posting on here the day after we get bumped out of the playoffs if they didn't. Whenever people actually try to use this as a form of argument on these board, the universe gets slightly more inarticulate and intolerant. 


Just to correct something I've seen misstated a few times in this thread, Alfie made only 500k more than Franzen this year. Franzens cap hit is just under 4, his salary this year was 5.

Fair enough.....I was thinking in cap hit rather than salary. I stand corrected.


Edited by lomekian, 27 April 2014 - 07:33 PM.


#157 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:44 PM

All right people, let's throttle back the name calling and sarcasm in this thread please.

 

Argue the points being made, not the person making them. 



#158 Playmaker

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:45 PM

Where have you been?  This isn't exactly a new thing.  Franzen has had horrible playoff stats since 2010.  This isn't like oh, we lost in the first round and Franzen is the only reason.  I also don't get the constant use of "consistent" when applied to Franzen.    

 

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both outstanding defensively, but would you see them tell the media they aren't responsible for scoring goals?  What he's trying to do is make excuses for his failure.   Hey, don't look at me, I'm not the goal scoring guy. I'm the defensive forward. Hey, Boston is just good, whattya do.  Not on me.  I'm not a goal scorer. What a crock of s***.  He would have earned a whole lot more respect if he had said, hey, I didn't get the job done.  I'm a veteran on this team and I need to lead and contribute and I didn't do that.  It just kind of summed up all that is wrong with Franzen.  



#159 DeGraa55

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:49 PM

Franzen plays D as well.

What about Hudler? Buy out candidate? Nope
BTW, none of u watch hockey. Only me.


Lol if Franzen plays defense then I guess we all can get signed to NHL deals to. Playing the same level of defense I mean floating.


The biggest thing you're FORGETTING is the length. If Franzen only has 4 more years like fil then maybe not. But he has six more years at age 34 until he is 40!

Fil has four years left and the deal is up when he is 34-35.

Please tell me you see the difference.

One guy is one yea past the prime years the other is five years past. SIGNED LONGER and he DOES LESS.

Edited by DeGraa55, 27 April 2014 - 07:50 PM.


#160 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:02 PM

"Lazy" "Floater"

I still don't buy into those excuses.

He's never been fast. He's never been physical. He's average at D. He has a good wrister.... So basically when he's not scoring he's going to look pretty invisible no matter what u do. He isn't Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He doesn't have elite top line skills like them that get you noticed even in a slump. And that's why he's not paid like them.

 

Not true.   We've just gotten used to his lazy floating. Early on he was a solid more of a solid two-way forward.  He's better than average at D when he wants to be.  He used to be on the second PK unit with Cleary. 

 

 

From 2005, and a reminder how he got his nickname:

 

To Yzerman's credit, it's a pretty good fit. Franzen, the Wings' third-round pick in the 2004 draft, has impressed teammates and coaches alike with his sturdy, dependable game and a tireless work ethic.

"Yzerman nicknamed him the Mule, and that's what he is: a big, strong guy who just goes over the top of you," coach Mike Babcock said

 

 

http://articles.chic...an-franzen-mule

 

tireless work ethic?  Goes over the top of you?  I kind of remember a guy who would play like that, but haven't seen him in several years.   Franzen never goes around leveling guys, but he used to go to the hard areas of the ice.

 

Yzerman dubbed Franzen "The Mule" because of he was big, strong, and worked really hard.  Not because he was an unremarkable player with a good wrist shot. 

 

Several people have mentioned how we need big strong physical forwards to contend with teams like Boston.  What's sad is we already have one, he just doesn't play like it anymore. 







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