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wings7

Definition of a real fan

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I really have been wondering what you guys think about this topic and if the following would have my fanhood questioned?

This has nothing to do with his recent struggles but ever since the two San Jose series I am not a fan of our goalie. In my own opinion, the bigger the moment, the worse he plays. Horrible timed goals against is my main problem but he can't play the puck or really stop a breakaway often.

I know we are proud of what the Wings did in 7 games against a better Blackhawks team, however I think Howard should have completely shut the door with 3 tries to do so.

Also, I dont like to post in the GDT when all I want to do is post negatively.

So I guess what I'm wondering is am I not considered a good or true fan when I've hated such a big part of our team for so long?

By the way, obviously I would want to win a cup and would be happy if Howard won it for us it's not an agenda against him.

Edited by Desert Rat

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Well, I thought my posts in the other thread were on topic (read: about the game) considering the game was the one that got us in the playoffs, and I was addressing how we got in the playoffs. Then they get deleted for being off-topic, but really, where would have been a good place to discuss it? I did consider starting a new thread, but...well I guess I'll just say it's probably better that I wasn't the one to start it.

Anyway, I certainly think that fans have the right to be negative. Along the lines of what Jesusberg was saying, of course people are going to be reactionary in the moment. I doubt anybody would have a problem with someone being reactionary after something positive happens, but for some reason the 'sky is falling' or 'x player sucks' posts in the same situation are frowned upon. Posts in those situations (positive or negative) should be taken with a grain of salt.

And I guess I'll say this here too. In the context of making a prediction about the outcome of a game, I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about someone predicting a loss. The point of a prediction, after all, is not to be unreasonably optimistic. The point is to be right about the outcome. If the team has been playing poorly, it isn't a stretch by any means to expect it to continue until given a reason otherwise.

And along those lines, I don't see the point to posts along the lines of "Well I know he's not playing great right now, but I'm going to blindly support him through it so when he finally does come through I can say 'I never lost faith in you'"

And I'm not saying you shouldn't hope that they bounce back, I think everybody hopes they do. But it seems more about telling all the "Haters" that you were right and they were wrong, when in fact the "haters" were just giving an honest assessment of the situation as it stood at that time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is when a player or team is performing poorly, there isn't anything wrong with saying so.

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Well, I thought my posts in the other thread were on topic (read: about the game) considering the game was the one that got us in the playoffs, and I was addressing how we got in the playoffs. Then they get deleted for being off-topic, but really, where would have been a good place to discuss it? I did consider starting a new thread, but...well I guess I'll just say it's probably better that I wasn't the one to start it.

Anyway, I certainly think that fans have the right to be negative. Along the lines of what Jesusberg was saying, of course people are going to be reactionary in the moment. I doubt anybody would have a problem with someone being reactionary after something positive happens, but for some reason the 'sky is falling' or 'x player sucks' posts in the same situation are frowned upon. Posts in those situations (positive or negative) should be taken with a grain of salt.

And I guess I'll say this here too. In the context of making a prediction about the outcome of a game, I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about someone predicting a loss. The point of a prediction, after all, is not to be unreasonably optimistic. The point is to be right about the outcome. If the team has been playing poorly, it isn't a stretch by any means to expect it to continue until given a reason otherwise.

And along those lines, I don't see the point to posts along the lines of "Well I know he's not playing great right now, but I'm going to blindly support him through it so when he finally does come through I can say 'I never lost faith in you'"

And I'm not saying you shouldn't hope that they bounce back, I think everybody hopes they do. But it seems more about telling all the "Haters" that you were right and they were wrong, when in fact the "haters" were just giving an honest assessment of the situation as it stood at that time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is when a player or team is performing poorly, there isn't anything wrong with saying so.

I just think it's comical how LGWs active member base triples when we struggle and have bad games.

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And I guess I'll say this here too. In the context of making a prediction about the outcome of a game, I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about someone predicting a loss. The point of a prediction, after all, is not to be unreasonably optimistic. The point is to be right about the outcome. If the team has been playing poorly, it isn't a stretch by any means to expect it to continue until given a reason otherwise.

And along those lines, I don't see the point to posts along the lines of "Well I know he's not playing great right now, but I'm going to blindly support him through it so when he finally does come through I can say 'I never lost faith in you'"

And I'm not saying you shouldn't hope that they bounce back, I think everybody hopes they do. But it seems more about telling all the "Haters" that you were right and they were wrong, when in fact the "haters" were just giving an honest assessment of the situation as it stood at that time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is when a player or team is performing poorly, there isn't anything wrong with saying so.

In response to the first bolded part, I get what you're saying. I think sometimes, though, there are members who continuously predict the team losing. It's one thing to predict that the Wings are going to lose to a "superior" team, or when they're in the middle of a funk. It's another to jump into every GDT and spew the same, "This team is soft - Ken Holland is garbage. We're losing 5-0."

To the second bolded portion, I think this discussion might be better served in another thread. I'm guessing it's in reference to Howard vs. Mrazek.

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I just think it's comical how LGWs active member base triples when we struggle and have bad games.

Why is it comical? I don't think it's unreasonable that people want to discuss what went wrong when things go bad. When things are good there is no reason to discuss at length what is going good. But when thing aren't good, you have more to discuss. It'd be the same for almost any situation where there is a good outcome and a bad one. Think about like Apollo 13. When everything was going good there was just regular discussions. But when things went bad then a TON of people came together to discuss the problems. That's just how it is with anything.

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Can we just agree that none of the mods here are "real fans"?

I mean, Harold is a Kings fan/slappy and the rest of the mods never post anymore. Obviously, they couldn't handle the mediocrity of this team.

A goalie who can play lights out and steal games?

A top Dman who can move the puck, carry it into the zone himself, and throws hip checks?

A top center who plays a similar game to Zetterberg but is 6'3" and 225 lbs?

A sniper who actually gets the puck on net and is also a good two-way forward?

Guys like Nolan and Clifford who pretty regularly drop the gloves, plus half a roster that will fight when called upon?

come to the dark side..... MWUAHAHAHAHAH.

*cough*

ok, right now isn't exactly the best time to follow the Kings but you see what I'm getting at.

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A goalie who can play lights out and steal games?

A top Dman who can move the puck, carry it into the zone himself, and throws hip checks?

A top center who plays a similar game to Zetterberg but is 6'3" and 225 lbs?

A sniper who actually gets the puck on net and is also a good two-way forward?

Guys like Nolan and Clifford who pretty regularly drop the gloves, plus half a roster that will fight when called upon?

come to the dark side..... MWUAHAHAHAHAH.

*cough*

ok, right now isn't exactly the best time to follow the Kings but you see what I'm getting at.

You're actin like a true ceiling fan right meow roldy.

:)

Edited by jimmyemeryhunter

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To the second bolded portion, I think this discussion might be better served in another thread. I'm guessing it's in reference to Howard vs. Mrazek.

Why? I didn't mention them at all. It was just a general example. It could apply to them, but that's the nature of making a general comment.

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Let's see how long this can go without being shut down. Seriously. Let's think of it as a challenge.

Personally, I think every fan has a right to be negative. I get mad at this team all the time. For me, the important thing is putting into perspective later on - weeding out the reactive stuff from the "this is actually an issue" stuff. Initially, I was upset with the way Detroit clinched, then I read the article where Babcock said he didn't think this team was even a contender in July. It's easy to think "wow, they p***** it away", but really... they made it. Who cares how? Los Angeles and Boston are out, and the Red Wings just keep rolling. Model of consistency. I lost my perspective in the mess that was March, but I'm appreciative that this team has been this good for this long.

I think we're always going to look at another fan who views aspects of this team differently and say, "that's not how to be a fan". It's just how it is...

Damn, that's pretty smart.

Still hate Smith, though!

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Its hard to simply define what a "real fan" is, but here is what I think pisses people off and results in some fans questioning others.

Some fans want to win at all costs, and have absolutely zero empathy for the players. The kind of people who are legitimately angry at a player for getting a concussion, and think that a player should sacrifice his life after hockey for a win, which is ultimately to give that fan immediate gratification and IMO extremely selfish. These people I have an issue with, and do question.

I think its okay for a fan to be frustrated that a player is hurt, but when you are mad at the player for getting hurt, I believe a line is crossed, especially when insults are thrown at the player. No player wants to be hurt. Could you imagine if a person broke their leg at a factory job because something random and flukey happened, and their co-workers were mad at them for it, seems ridiculous...right? When I hear people say thing like "F U Datsyuk, if you cant play" it embarrassing.

Secondly, we are the luckiest fan base in all of hockey, I'm not going to list our resume as we all know it. We are now in a league that has been created to have parity. Some people still have the expectations of the late 90's, early 2000's, they want this team to be a top seed every year, and to ALWAYS be Stanley cup favorites. This is just not realistic anymore, and when fans don't get this, they attack the people in the organization. Personally I don't think this makes you not a fan, just a bit delusional. We cant outspend other teams by 20mil anymore.

A Lot of people hate the constant negativity. There are certain posters who if you go into their post history, every single thing they write is negative. I think this has more to do with a persons outlook on things in general then their fandom, or they are just trolling.....Tank It?

Lastly, there are the people who hate the fact that the Wings play a European style (Don't hit etc.) This I find funny, because this has been the Wings for years. If you have not accepted this by now, you probably are watching the wrong team lol.

That's my thoughts.

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I noticed in the Game Day Thread there was a lot of talk about what a real fan is.

What do you think the answer is?

Are real fans not allowed to be negative? I know some people feel this way. I think it's bulls***. You should be allowed to care. Complain. And want more from your team.

Like sneaking into the playoffs to me isn't good enough for Detroit. It wouldn't be good enough for Scotty or Yzerman, so why is it for Zetterberg or Babcock?

Let's talk it out.

How about someone who doesn't want the team to lose, just so it proves to everyone on a message board that they were right, and the team does in fact suck, Ken Holland sucks, Howard sucks etc.

A real fan can say "Howard has sucked since coming back from injury" but isn't happy about it. The fan who gloats "see, I've always said Howard sucks, I told you we should have traded him whilst he had value, I told you we should have tanked", well......

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Why is it comical? I don't think it's unreasonable that people want to discuss what went wrong when things go bad. When things are good there is no reason to discuss at length what is going good. But when thing aren't good, you have more to discuss. It'd be the same for almost any situation where there is a good outcome and a bad one. Think about like Apollo 13. When everything was going good there was just regular discussions. But when things went bad then a TON of people came together to discuss the problems. That's just how it is with anything.

Except most (not all) don't come to have discussions. They come to ***** and rant.

"Holland sucks" "Trade Howard", "Quincey is a whistle fart". That's not discussion and it get's old.

Again...not all are like this. But it's those that make a bad name for the rest.

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Guest Playmaker

"Fandom" isn't quantifiable, so it's a non issue. The "I'm a bigger fan that you are" kind of sounds like playground talk, to be honest. Like, I'm totally a bigger Justin Bieber fan than you are!

Reactions have more to do with personalities, life experiences, etc.

For me, winning 4 (Should've been 5!) Cups tempers things quite a bit. I look back now at my younger days at how angry I'd get and I think I wasted way too much time and energy on it. I was furious when they lost to the Avs in 96, and then when it seemed like they were destined for the same in '97, only for them to come through and win the Cup. Then what happened to Vladdie, kind of put things in a different perspective. Sure, I still get disappointed and frustrated at times because it's just so damn fun when they win. To have witnessed all those Cups and so many exciting games, not to mention the legendary players, most of whom are just as great off the ice. Well, our Cup literally runneth over as Wings fans.

Age, logic and common sense have also set in. The Wings just aren't going to win every year. No team in any sport does. Plus, I've been wrong so many times on so many things with the Wings. I thought they'd for sure lose this series or win that one, was positive this player or that player would never amount to anything, that this coach or GM doesn't know what he's doing. I nail a few, but in most cases, the true experts usually know best. I post on a professional board and I know we constantly make fun of the internet "experts" who try and tell us how to do our jobs, because, yanno, they read it on the internet! I imagine the players, coaches and management of the Wings do the same things.

Waiting and hoping to be proven wrong again this year.

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Its hard to simply define what a "real fan" is, but here is what I think pisses people off and results in some fans questioning others.

Some fans want to win at all costs, and have absolutely zero empathy for the players. The kind of people who are legitimately angry at a player for getting a concussion, and think that a player should sacrifice his life after hockey for a win, which is ultimately to give that fan immediate gratification and IMO extremely selfish. These people I have an issue with, and do question.

I think its okay for a fan to be frustrated that a player is hurt, but when you are mad at the player for getting hurt, I believe a line is crossed, especially when insults are thrown at the player. No player wants to be hurt. Could you imagine if a person broke their leg at a factory job because something random and flukey happened, and their co-workers were mad at them for it, seems ridiculous...right? When I hear people say thing like "F U Datsyuk, if you cant play" it embarrassing.

Secondly, we are the luckiest fan base in all of hockey, I'm not going to list our resume as we all know it. We are now in a league that has been created to have parity. Some people still have the expectations of the late 90's, early 2000's, they want this team to be a top seed every year, and to ALWAYS be Stanley cup favorites. This is just not realistic anymore, and when fans don't get this, they attack the people in the organization. Personally I don't think this makes you not a fan, just a bit delusional. We cant outspend other teams by 20mil anymore.

A Lot of people hate the constant negativity. There are certain posters who if you go into their post history, every single thing they write is negative. I think this has more to do with a persons outlook on things in general then their fandom, or they are just trolling.....Tank It?

Lastly, there are the people who hate the fact that the Wings play a European style (Don't hit etc.) This I find funny, because this has been the Wings for years. If you have not accepted this by now, you probably are watching the wrong team lol.

That's my thoughts.

nietzsche.jpg

You can't run away from this.

Your level of involvement in this is over, idk, at least a few thousand.

Maybe three times that.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

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When it comes to being a fan, I think the ability to view your team critically is important but in the end, I think you should support them and hope for the best. This is what I used to see around here.

Lately however...the hate for our goaltender is out of control, people complain about the GM in nearly every thread despite the fact that most experts believe him to be better than average, and people are calling to fire Babcock, who is arguably one of the best coaches ever.

Being critical is one thing but some fans seem to think that we should win every game, every year, and collect Stanley cups easily. They also seem to believe that we should be able to sign every desirable player ever and trade nobodies for superstars. It's frustrating because I don't feel like I can discuss the issues the team is facing because it will only be met with replies of "duh, everybody on the Red Wings sucks"

I guess people can be fans in many different ways and in the end, it's not for any of us to decide but imo a real fan is watching the games thinking "I love this team, win or lose, but I really hope they win"

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I agree with OP's opening statement. Fan doesn't mean just support through anything and not calling them out when they are playing below their ability or with no heart. Fan can expect excellence, hard work every night, and the upholding of the Red WIngs tradition.

I get that sometimes we lose but if they give an honest effort and they lose, that's hockey, that's sports ... I'm perfectly fine with that. But when they sleep for 20 mins and get down 0-2 and then play hockey for next 40 mins but can't equalize, and lose ... that deserves some sh*t raising.

Edited by RedWingsRox

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At times like this, I like to ask myself "who does Gary Bettman think constitutes "real fans?". Because his is the only opinion on hockey that really matters/I care about.

If you don't choose Gary's model of fandom, or more importantly if that model doesn't choose you, then you're not a fan.

Plain and simple, Gary Bettman IS hockey fandom.

Edited by kipwinger

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