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wings7

At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

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I think Holland's plan for post-Lidstrom was..."We'll take a run at Suter, and if not, no harm done. We've got Kronwall and he's a legit number 1".

I don't think failing to replace Lids was as big of a screw up as failing to round out the top four with legit top four players. We replaced Lids with the best we coudl manage, but we didn't replace Rafalski, Stuart, or Kronwall with anything special.

That's a better way of putting it.

It's not that I expected him to replace Lidstrom, because that's not gonna happen. You have to re-evaluate the whole defense, and even team, with the loss of a player that great. Since there's not another Lidstrom around in the league, the more manageable move is to bolster your 2,3,4 guys.

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Great points.

Don't mistake my post. I think we win tomorrow. But I think we can be a better team for sure and some of the mistakes are on Holland. That's all.

The timing is just a question. It would be weirder to me to just bring it up if we lose. I think we win anyways. Doesn't mean I think Holland has done a lot. I think Babcock wins in spite of what Holland puts on his bench.

And just because those moves are old doesn't mean they are forgotten...

Do you remember the awful Adam Oates trade? Still losing sleep over that one. And don't get me started on Adam Graves! Sheesh!

/sarc

Those were bad moves but even frustration has a shelf life.

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Do you remember the awful Adam Oates trade? Still losing sleep over that one. And don't get me started on Adam Graves! Sheesh!

/sarc

Those were bad moves but even frustration has a shelf life.

Man that Oates trade was friggin brutal. The Graves one wasn't much better.

The Wings need to do some serious considering before they ever trade an Adam again.

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Guest Playmaker

I think it's pretty clear that Holland had no idea that Rafalski was retiring. While everyone looks back now and thinks it was highly obvious that Lidstrom was retiring, he conceivably could have played another 3 or 4 years. Not true to say he did nothing to plan for Stuart's departure. He acquired Quincey in anticipation. Say what you will about him, but at the time, he had put together some good years with the Kings and Avs and Holland had been criticized for letting him walk.

Yeah, he could have had a Plan B if the Suter thing didn't work out, but I think he and Parise kind of threw a last minute monkey wrench into the process by selling themselves as a pair. He also signed DeKeyser, who was coveted by Yzerman and every other NHL team.

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I think he deserves blame for consistently fielding a small soft team. It's not the brand of hockey I want to see and we see all too often how easily they're pushed around in the playoffs

I agree that we're pretty small, and soft - however Holland & Co have been drafting the players with what they perceive to have the most talent more than anything else.

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I think he deserves blame for consistently fielding a small soft team. It's not the brand of hockey I want to see and we see all too often how easily they're pushed around in the playoffs

He has been drafting bigger players for a while now. The team won't get bigger over night, but it is going in that direction.

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The feeling is mutual with the KH attackers. I guess they don't like multiple cup winners.

People don't understand/accept that we are going through a re-build. Pretty much every elite team in today's NHL was horrible at a point. In our case, horrible is losing in the first round of the playoffs. While it completely sucks and its frustrating to see us lose, you have to see the big picture.

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Not sure I trust anyone else though. HAS to be someone within the organization because otherwise we get somebody just trading away Tatars and Nyquists and gutting the concept of the Red Wings Way that is passed down. Too bad Nill and Yzerman are gone just as Holland really needs to go and we have nobody to step in from within the organization.

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Lidstrom was the greatest defenseman of the modern era, you cant just replace him. Teams aren't trading away norris caliber d-men, the only real option of a "replacement" in free agency was Suter. Holland did make him one hell of an offer (one that would probably have bit him in the ass down the road) but Suter decided to play on a team with his friend that was close to home. You cant put this on Holland.

As far as Weber goes, sure I would love to have him on this team, but that was never going to happen.

And for the record, reports show that Holland did try to go after Weber.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/07/red_wings_pursued_defenseman_s.html

No you can't just replace Lidstrom, but you can have a plan in place. Try and get a few guys to improve your top 6...not just Quincey. There was not a whole lot done here. Trades can be explored. Not asking for norris-calibre defenceman, but some solid reliable players. Why not Wideman or Boychuk (who has been great since being traded). Why not go after Keith Yandle, Tyler Myers?...Weber/Doughty/Subban are obviously not realistic, but there are other good D-men who have been available.

Dekeyser was a great signing and he's going to be a top 2 D man for us, but at least some of that was to play for his hometown team.

Kronner has been stellar for along time, but he's on the downside of his career now as well. TIme to again start looking for some D.

Upfront, i can't blame Holland. He's been trying and drafting well. Tatar and Nyqvist have bags of ability, and lots of potential, though they both need to improve their playoff performances.

Glendening is a stroke of genius, and going to be a key part of this team.

Very high hopes for Mantha, I hope this kid comes through.

What the hell happened to Jurco. Id consider putting him a package deal.

Howard can be a marketable asset this summer, but if we're going to trade him, lets get a good return.

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The feeling is mutual with the KH attackers. I guess they don't like multiple cup winners.

ONE cup in the salary cap era. 3 first round exits in the last 4 seasons.

By the way, go take a look at that 07/08 roster one more time and compare it to what KH has put together now.

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the Wings at least make the post season, and have been for many years.

So what, if we made the playoffs for 24 consecutive seasons (you don't get a trophy for it). Its not about making it to the playoffs, it's what you do in the playoffs that matters.

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What are you trying to start?

What should Holland be blamed for exactly?

The embarrassment of prospects the Wings have stock-piled despite a top 10 pick in 24 years?

But at least we made the playoffs with those kids right?

I love first round exits!!!

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No you can't just replace Lidstrom, but you can have a plan in place. Try and get a few guys to improve your top 6...not just Quincey. There was not a whole lot done here. Trades can be explored. Not asking for norris-calibre defenceman, but some solid reliable players. Why not Wideman or Boychuk (who has been great since being traded). Why not go after Keith Yandle, Tyler Myers?...Weber/Doughty/Subban are obviously not realistic, but there are other good D-men who have been available.

Dekeyser was a great signing and he's going to be a top 2 D man for us, but at least some of that was to play for his hometown team. Fell into our lap.

Kronner has been stellar for along time, but he's on the downside of his career now as well. TIme to again start looking for some D.

Upfront, i can't blame Holland. He's been trying and drafting well. Tatar and Nyqvist have bags of ability, and lots of potential, though they both need to improve their playoff performances.

Glendening is a stroke of genius, and going to be a key part of this team. More credit should go to Babcock picking him to play than holland being a genius.

Very high hopes for Mantha, I hope this kid comes through.

What the hell happened to Jurco. Id consider putting him a package deal.

Howard can be a marketable asset this summer, but if we're going to trade him, lets get a good return.

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The only other option is to tank. We haven't had a top ten pick since Marty LaPointe! What was that? 1990? How many cup winners since 2008 can say that?

Actually I'm serious, have any other teams won recently without a high draft pick leading their team? I honestly have no idea.

I just don't know what else could've made this team better without getting better picks.

You either let the cap era system make you rebuild, or you fight it and retool like Holland has.

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The only other option is to tank. We haven't had a top ten pick since Marty LaPointe! What was that? 1990? How many cup winners since 2008 can say that?

Actually I'm serious, have any other teams won recently without a high draft pick leading their team? I honestly have no idea.

I just don't know what else could've made this team better without getting better picks.

Hmm I'd like to look that up but you might be right.

I think we have failed miserably at free agency though, too.

So it's not just low picks. Though I see your point.

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Hmm I'd like to look that up but you might be right.

I think we have failed miserably at free agency though, too.

So it's not just low picks. Though I see your point.

Free agency has been a completely different game since the cap as well, the contracts are longer so there's less options during the off season, and more competition for players. We don't have young superstars to lure in free agents, there's lots of other exciting teams to choose from.

I don't know that I can say with certainty that Holland is the best GM, but I think he's done very well considering the circumstances.

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Free agency has been a completely different game since the cap as well, the contracts are longer so there's less options during the off season, and more competition for players. We don't have young superstars to lure in free agents, there's lots of other exciting teams to choose from.

I don't know that I can say with certainty that Holland is the best GM, but I think he's done very well considering the circumstances.

Some of those "circumstances" were his fault. Keeping Cleary, Sammy and Bertuzzi around for too long. Trading a first rounder for Quincey. Spending too many trade deadlines on the phone ordering pizza instead of doing his job.

His defenders make it sound like he's a victim of bad luck or something. He's made his own troubles the last few years. Yeah, there were some bad breaks in there but he's not absolved of guilt.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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