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At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

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With Cole and Franzen this team would be seriously deep up front, with probably more good 2 way forwards than any of our rivals. But as I said, were it not for freak injuries, car crashes and heart defects the dynasty could have been another couple of cups deep...

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Whether or not he could or should be replaced doesn't negate the fact that it's frustrating how poorly Holland has performed at acquiring NHL talent via trade or free agency. He's done a really lousy job of it for five years. Just because he drafts well doesn't mean that it's not colossally frustrating that he's made so many terrible signings and trades over the last five years.

I feel like I'm in the middle of the road on the issue at this point to be clear. I don't necessarily think he should be fired for what he's done given all that he brings in other areas, and I think he gets too much blame for a lot of things, but I can understand completely why he's become such a frustrating and polarizing GM. At this point, he's definitely deserving of much of the criticism he gets just as he's deserving of much of the praise that he gets.

And what would you have done differently ? If you think Holland didn't try and sign some of the better players, your mistaken. He's been in on a lot of players but they decided to go to other teams which apparently is his fault.

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No problem with Holland except for the clear lack of planning to replace Lids.

Everyone knew it was coming for a few years in advance. Lidstrom wasn't going to last forever, and there was no backup plan put in place..ever.

Throw the book at the top defensive free agents, don't try and underpay.

Hell, at least Philly tried to sign Weber to an offer sheet. Sure it didn't work, but it's an attempt.

I know we tried to get Suter, but we failed. And we haven't done much else.

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I don't think Holland should be blamed for anything, but I hope we all know that Babcock is a large part of why this team still hasn't missed the playoffs no matter what we've had to deal with(injuries, lack of depth etc) Unless Babs leaves I guess we'll never find out but until then there's nothing to complain about. Kenny keeps us competitive and keeps our picks and drafts well, I just hope he doesn't expect Tatar and Nyquist to be the next Zetterberg and Datsyuk..

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I was purely asking when does Holland get blamed for his bad moves.

I appreciate y'all trying to change the direction of the thread though.

It's clear he doesn't get any blame for any bad moves. He can do no wrong in Detroit.

Like I said, I disagree with that.

I think if the Wings made it to the first round of the playoffs for the next 20 years with Holland he'd never get fired and no one would mind on here because the playoffs has become the bar.

Your thread is called "At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?", this title alone insinuates that you believe he either deserves blame now, or soon. Your statements in bold just confirm this, which is fine as you are entitled to your opinion, but you cant be upset that people are defending Holland when this thread was made as a criticism towards him. I'm also surprised that you dont think Holland gets any blame. In the summer there was literally a thread about why he should be fired.

Of course Holland has made mistakes, no GM is perfect. I don't even think Holland himself would say he makes no mistakes, but the reason why some people are so firmly behind him IMO is because he makes many more good decisions then bad decisions.

No problem with Holland except for the clear lack of planning to replace Lids.

Everyone knew it was coming for a few years in advance. Lidstrom wasn't going to last forever, and there was no backup plan put in place..ever.

Throw the book at the top defensive free agents, don't try and underpay.

Hell, at least Philly tried to sign Weber to an offer sheet. Sure it didn't work, but it's an attempt.

I know we tried to get Suter, but we failed. And we haven't done much else.

Lidstrom was the greatest defenseman of the modern era, you cant just replace him. Teams aren't trading away norris caliber d-men, the only real option of a "replacement" in free agency was Suter. Holland did make him one hell of an offer (one that would probably have bit him in the ass down the road) but Suter decided to play on a team with his friend that was close to home. You cant put this on Holland.

As far as Weber goes, sure I would love to have him on this team, but that was never going to happen.

And for the record, reports show that Holland did try to go after Weber.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/07/red_wings_pursued_defenseman_s.html

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I was purely asking when does Holland get blamed for his bad moves.

I appreciate y'all trying to change the direction of the thread though.

It's clear he doesn't get any blame for any bad moves. He can do no wrong in Detroit.

Like I said, I disagree with that.

I think if the Wings made it to the first round of the playoffs for the next 20 years with Holland he'd never get fired and no one would mind on here because the playoffs has become the bar.

Your thread is called "At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?", this title alone insinuates that you believe he either deserves blame now, or soon. Your statements in bold just confirm this, which is fine as you are entitled to your opinion, but you cant be upset that people are defending Holland when this thread was made as a criticism towards him. I'm also surprised that you dont think Holland gets any blame. In the summer there was literally a thread about why he should be fired.

Of course Holland has made mistakes, no GM is perfect. I don't even think Holland himself would say he makes no mistakes, but the reason why some people are so firmly behind him IMO is because he makes many more good decisions then bad decisions.

No problem with Holland except for the clear lack of planning to replace Lids.

Everyone knew it was coming for a few years in advance. Lidstrom wasn't going to last forever, and there was no backup plan put in place..ever.

Throw the book at the top defensive free agents, don't try and underpay.

Hell, at least Philly tried to sign Weber to an offer sheet. Sure it didn't work, but it's an attempt.

I know we tried to get Suter, but we failed. And we haven't done much else.

Lidstrom was the greatest defenseman of the modern era, you cant just replace him. Teams aren't trading away norris caliber d-men, the only real option of a "replacement" in free agency was Suter. Holland did make him one hell of an offer (one that would probably have bit him in the ass down the road) but Suter decided to play on a team with his friend that was close to home. You cant put this on Holland.

As far as Weber goes, sure I would love to have him on this team, but that was never going to happen.

And for the record, reports show that Holland did try to go after Weber.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/07/red_wings_pursued_defenseman_s.html

Philly should have made a better offer sheet now that guy is under contract forever.

Yeah Suter and his girlfriend wanted home but there were other top 4 options in the last few years... Myers, Niskanen, Ehrhoff

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Hey I'm not trying to start something but does anyone else think that maybe Ilitch probably isn't asking for of Holland because he's focused on the Tigers? They are closer to a world series win and have no cap- the Wings in the early 2000s. Maybe thats why Ilitch is satisfied with just making the playoffs for now.

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Hey I'm not trying to start something but does anyone else think that maybe Ilitch probably isn't asking for of Holland because he's focused on the Tigers? They are closer to a world series win and have no cap- the Wings in the early 2000s. Maybe thats why Ilitch is satisfied with just making the playoffs for now.

I'm sure he still cares but it's no secret the Tigers our his first priority. He's got 4 cups he wants a WS.

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Lidstrom was the greatest defenseman of the modern era, you cant just replace him. Teams aren't trading away norris caliber d-men, the only real option of a "replacement" in free agency was Suter. Holland did make him one hell of an offer (one that would probably have bit him in the ass down the road) but Suter decided to play on a team with his friend that was close to home. You cant put this on Holland.

As far as Weber goes, sure I would love to have him on this team, but that was never going to happen.

And for the record, reports show that Holland did try to go after Weber.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/07/red_wings_pursued_defenseman_s.html

I disagree regarding Lidstrom. He was definitely one of the best defenseman of all time, which is why you're not going to be able to replace him with any one player. It requires examining the whole makeup of the team and in particular the blueline, and probably requires changing multiple parts, some even before Lids retired. Lidstrom eventually retiring was a pretty known event, plus or minus a couple years.

To me, Holland participating in the ridiculousness that was the Suter sweepstakes is more of a sign that he didn't have a good plan post-Lidstrom rather than he had one and it didn't work out. If your transition plan hinges on landing one or two of the absolute most sought after free agents, you're in trouble. I can't think of another time he involved the team in a bidding war like that.

Add to that Stuart's departure, which was also known event. Like I said overall Holland is a great GM, but this team is still dealing with the lack of an effective transition plan post-Lidstrom. He didn't get out front of it and ended up having to desperately chase free agents like many lesser GM's in the league.

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I disagree regarding Lidstrom. He was definitely one of the best defenseman of all time, which is why you're not going to be able to replace him with any one player. It requires examining the whole makeup of the team and in particular the blueline, and probably requires changing multiple parts, some even before Lids retired. Lidstrom eventually retiring was a pretty known event, plus or minus a couple years.

To me, Holland participating in the ridiculousness that was the Suter sweepstakes is more of a sign that he didn't have a good plan post-Lidstrom rather than he had one and it didn't work out. If your transition plan hinges on landing one or two of the absolute most sought after free agents, you're in trouble. I can't think of another time he involved the team in a bidding war like that.

Add to that Stuart's departure, which was also known event. Like I said overall Holland is a great GM, but this team is still dealing with the lack of an effective transition plan post-Lidstrom. He didn't get out front of it and ended up having to desperately chase free agents like many lesser GM's in the league.

He lost 3 of his top 4 d-men over the course of a year.

I think he deserves some props for keeping us competive through that.

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I don't think you can really do too much if you're Ken Holland at this point nowadays. 15 years ago you could've patched up whatever pieces you were missing to an already stacked lineup and boom...Stanley Cup Finals. Hasek, Robitaille, Hull, etc. You'd have to give up the farm(literally) for even one of those player's caliber in today's NHL. Not gonna happen. You are seeing a team that has a salary cap they have to abide by and an aging superstar nucleus from a Cup win from 7 years ago. Franzen, Datsyuk, Zetts and Kronwall in their primes. No one is gonna let Shea Weber go. No one is gonna trade Tarasenko for Kindl, Tatar, Nyquist and Howard. Just isn't gonna happen. If you're a Wings fan you simply have to wait to see if there's a player we need during free agency and pray we either have the money, trade assets or if that said player wants to even play here. Simple as that. You can't expect Holland to plug holes on a non championship caliber team and win a championship. So you either appreciate the 24 straight playoff appearances and not go far or you watch them tank 5-10 seasons and stock up on talent that may or may not work out for you in the long run. Ask Edmonton, Buffalo and the Islanders about that. Also will you be a hardcore fan if the Wings are winning 25 games a year in a brand new, empty home stadium? Yes I also would've loved to keep Hossa but things just didn't work out.

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He lost 3 of his top 4 d-men over the course of a year.

I think he deserves some props for keeping us competive through that.

Sadly, I can't wait until we miss the playoffs, half the users here will be gone.

The beginning of this series half the forum was saying Tampa in 4 or 5, we go 7 games and "Holland sucks" "Holland builds soft teams".

Do you see half the forum members trade offers? They are pathetic. They cater only to the Wings needs and doesn't meet any needs for the other teams. It just shows people don't understand how a GM works, or how to gauge trade value / signings.

Edited by darkmanx

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Philly should have made a better offer sheet now that guy is under contract forever. Yeah Suter and his girlfriend wanted home but there were other top 4 options in the last few years... Myers, Niskanen, Ehrhoff

Those players are not really relevant to this conversation as Lidstrom retired in 2012, these players were not available until 2014. If you are going to bring them up, IMO none of them would have been a suitable replacement for Lidstrom. Erhoff has had a horrible season this year, Niskansen was not worth the contract he was given, and Myers required trading ManthaI....right? I dont want any of those guys, and especially Myers who I read is overrated for possibly our biggest prospect.

I disagree regarding Lidstrom. He was definitely one of the best defenseman of all time, which is why you're not going to be able to replace him with any one player. It requires examining the whole makeup of the team and in particular the blueline, and probably requires changing multiple parts, some even before Lids retired. Lidstrom eventually retiring was a pretty known event, plus or minus a couple years.

To me, Holland participating in the ridiculousness that was the Suter sweepstakes is more of a sign that he didn't have a good plan post-Lidstrom rather than he had one and it didn't work out. If your transition plan hinges on landing one or two of the absolute most sought after free agents, you're in trouble. I can't think of another time he involved the team in a bidding war like that.

Add to that Stuart's departure, which was also known event. Like I said overall Holland is a great GM, but this team is still dealing with the lack of an effective transition plan post-Lidstrom. He didn't get out front of it and ended up having to desperately chase free agents like many lesser GM's in the league.

I cant disagree with you, but I think this is alot easier written then done. I think when any team loses a franchise player, they are going to struggle replacing him. Holland did try the immediate fix in Suter (which I agree with your assessment on) but when that didnt work, he went into re-build mode and stock piled young D, and signed some vets to hold the fort until the young guys were ready. The re-build part is what which I believe frustrates people as Wings fans are conditioned to "WIN NOW". If we didn't have the depth of prospects that we have, I would be more incline to blame Holland for this.

Think of the following with 2012 eyes; you have DD, Smith, and Kindl, then in 2011 you draft Sproul, Marchenko, and Oulette (not a coincidence). This was the plan in replacing Lidstrom.....re-build the D.

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He lost 3 of his top 4 d-men over the course of a year.

I think he deserves some props for keeping us competive through that.

And two of them he knew about and should be planning for. He may have even known about Raf.

To be clear I think he's recovered well and it's impressive the team is still rolling along. But he seemed ill prepared for what was obviously going to be the biggest transition the team faced under his tenure. Uncharacteristic is the word that keeps coming to mind because he's usually three moves ahead of everyone else.

When Yzerman left he was a third liner and we had Datsyuk and Zetterberg, whereas Lidstrom was still our #1 d-man. Holland seemed surprisingly unprepared for what should have been something the franchise was planning for years in advance.

I cant disagree with you, but I think this is alot easier written then done. I think when any team loses a franchise player, they are going to struggle replacing him. Holland did try the immediate fix in Suter (which I agree with your assessment on) but when that didnt work, he went into re-build mode and stock piled young D, and signed some vets to hold the fort until the young guys were ready. The re-build part is what which I believe frustrates people as Wings fans are conditioned to "WIN NOW". If we didn't have the depth of prospects that we have, I would be more incline to blame Holland for this.

Think of the following with 2012 eyes; you have DD, Smith, and Kindl, then in 2011 you draft Sproul, Marchenko, and Oulette (not a coincidence). This was the plan in replacing Lidstrom.....re-build the D.

It's certainly easier written than done. Holland has an incredibly hard job, but has done it very well for so long. As I said above, I was just surprised how unprepared he seemed for something that was inevitable. Lidstrom's retirement was second only to the implementation of the salary cap in terms of its impact on the team.

I'm glad he drafted those players but it kind of supports my case. That's way too late to expect those guys to contribute to the lineup in Lidstrom's absence, especially with defensemen. It's almost like Holland was in as much denial as the rest of us that Lids would ever retire.

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I think Holland's plan for post-Lidstrom was..."We'll take a run at Suter, and if not, no harm done. We've got Kronwall and he's a legit number 1".

I don't think failing to replace Lids was as big of a screw up as failing to round out the top four with legit top four players. We replaced Lids with the best we could manage, but we didn't replace Rafalski, Stuart, or Kronwall with anything special.

Edited by kipwinger

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I think Holland's plan for post-Lidstrom was..."We'll take a run at Suter, and if not, no harm done. We've got Kronwall and he's a legit number 1".

I don't think failing to replace Lids was as big of a screw up as failing to round out the top four with legit top four players. We replaced Lids with the best we coudl manage, but we didn't replace Rafalski, Stuart, or Kronwall with anything special.

Dekeyser and Kronwall look good to me, I Say snag up a guy in FA Hope one of our kids can develop by this time next year or hope E can elevate his play in a lesser role, to me DD can play top two minutes right now, he's a top tier number three so close to being a number 2

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I think Holland's plan for post-Lidstrom was..."We'll take a run at Suter, and if not, no harm done. We've got Kronwall and he's a legit number 1".

I don't think failing to replace Lids was as big of a screw up as failing to round out the top four with legit top four players. We replaced Lids with the best we coudl manage, but we didn't replace Rafalski, Stuart, or Kronwall with anything special.

This is literally my biggest problem with Holland in recent years.

It's idiotic to think you're replacing Lidstrom, at least after the fact. I wasn't bothered by missing out on Suter, and I never gave Holland crap for it. That Holland couldn't bring in anyone comparable to even Stuart though in all these years??? That's the issue I have. I don't even give him much flack for not "replacing" Rafalski. But how in all this time do you not even manage to bring in a Stuart-level defenseman? Quincey is not that guy, nor is Dekeyser, at least yet. This is literally the single point that just boggles my mind more than any other.

Like Harold, I do think Holland could've done a better job of planning for Lidstrom's departure, especially in light of knowing that Stuart was on the out and Rafalski was at most a year away from being done. I would've liked to see something bold go down to prepare for that before Lidstrom left as opposed to chasing the big name free agents after the fact. But again, I don't get too worked up about that so much as the guy failing to bring in even one truly respectable 3-4 guy with NHL experience.

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I think Holland's plan for post-Lidstrom was..."We'll take a run at Suter, and if not, no harm done. We've got Kronwall and he's a legit number 1".

I don't think failing to replace Lids was as big of a screw up as failing to round out the top four with legit top four players. We replaced Lids with the best we coudl manage, but we didn't replace Rafalski, Stuart, or Kronwall with anything special.

That's a better way of putting it.

It's not that I expected him to replace Lidstrom, because that's not gonna happen. You have to re-evaluate the whole defense, and even team, with the loss of a player that great. Since there's not another Lidstrom around in the league, the more manageable move is to bolster your 2,3,4 guys.

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Great points.

Don't mistake my post. I think we win tomorrow. But I think we can be a better team for sure and some of the mistakes are on Holland. That's all.

The timing is just a question. It would be weirder to me to just bring it up if we lose. I think we win anyways. Doesn't mean I think Holland has done a lot. I think Babcock wins in spite of what Holland puts on his bench.

And just because those moves are old doesn't mean they are forgotten...

Do you remember the awful Adam Oates trade? Still losing sleep over that one. And don't get me started on Adam Graves! Sheesh!

/sarc

Those were bad moves but even frustration has a shelf life.

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