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Hockeytown0001

11/4 GDT : Winnipeg Jets 5, at Red Wings 3

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Don't believe what Holland tells you, Nielsen was NOT his #1 choice. He only said that to save face after getting stiffed by not even getting a chance to talk to Stamkos.  That is the only reason he traded Dats contract, not to sign Nielsen, but to get a shot at Stamkos. Hindsight, of course, he should have kept Dats, drafted Chychrun and then tried Vanek.  But, we all were calling for his head if he DIDN'T move that contract, outside of us feeling that Stammer wouldn't choose us, none of us could predict that we wouldn't even get a chance to talk to him. The thing is, I am not so sure anyone else wanted Dats contract, ARZ only wanted it to get Chychrun, if he was already selected, we'd still have Dat's cap hit.

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6 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Well regardless of what people tihnk Jimmy Howard is getting the start on Sunday

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/11/red_wings_hoping_jimmy_howard.html

I figured he would. Mrazek def needs to be better. When I saw his GAA before last nights game i was shocked it was over 3.00. For now i'll take it game by game with Howard..he's got alot to prove. Yes, even though he has only 3 GA in 3.5 games...

The D corps on this team are gonna give whoever is in net fits all season either way unless changes are made. Only this team would drop 3 straight after winning 6 straight.:glare:

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5 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Don't believe what Holland tells you, Nielsen was NOT his #1 choice. He only said that to save face after getting stiffed by not even getting a chance to talk to Stamkos.  That is the only reason he traded Dats contract, not to sign Nielsen, but to get a shot at Stamkos. Hindsight, of course, he should have kept Dats, drafted Chychrun and then tried Vanek.  But, we all were calling for his head if he DIDN'T move that contract, outside of us feeling that Stammer wouldn't choose us, none of us could predict that we wouldn't even get a chance to talk to him. The thing is, I am not so sure anyone else wanted Dats contract, ARZ only wanted it to get Chychrun, if he was already selected, we'd still have Dat's cap hit.

I never thought the Wings had a chance at Stamkos. I didn't think any team besides Tampa did. Why would he want to leave a team that contends for the cup yearly to go to a rebuilding team? He could have gotten Chych. Dats' cap hit wouldn't have been a big deal for one season. This team isn't winning the cup anyways. Nielson def was his backup plan, but they could have done without him and still got Vanek. f*** Holland.

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30 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Don't believe what Holland tells you, Nielsen was NOT his #1 choice. He only said that to save face after getting stiffed by not even getting a chance to talk to Stamkos.  That is the only reason he traded Dats contract, not to sign Nielsen, but to get a shot at Stamkos. Hindsight, of course, he should have kept Dats, drafted Chychrun and then tried Vanek.  But, we all were calling for his head if he DIDN'T move that contract, outside of us feeling that Stammer wouldn't choose us, none of us could predict that we wouldn't even get a chance to talk to him. The thing is, I am not so sure anyone else wanted Dats contract, ARZ only wanted it to get Chychrun, if he was already selected, we'd still have Dat's cap hit.

 

20 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

I never thought the Wings had a chance at Stamkos. I didn't think any team besides Tampa did. Why would he want to leave a team that contends for the cup yearly to go to a rebuilding team? He could have gotten Chych. Dats' cap hit wouldn't have been a big deal for one season. This team isn't winning the cup anyways. Nielson def was his backup plan, but they could have done without him and still got Vanek. f*** Holland.

Yep.. this 100%. 

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23 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

I never thought the Wings had a chance at Stamkos. I didn't think any team besides Tampa did. Why would he want to leave a team that contends for the cup yearly to go to a rebuilding team? He could have gotten Chych. Dats' cap hit wouldn't have been a big deal for one season. This team isn't winning the cup anyways. Nielson def was his backup plan, but they could have done without him and still got Vanek. f*** Holland.

Okay but you do realize that if we didn't move Datsyuk's cap hit the fans would be saying "He's such a bad GM, he couldn't even more Datsyuk's contract, the guy does nothing!"

Hindsight = 20/20 

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2 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Okay but you do realize that if we didn't move Datsyuk's cap hit the fans would be saying "He's such a bad GM, he couldn't even more Datsyuk's contract, the guy does nothing!"

Hindsight = 20/20 

True. But if eating the 7+ million for one season meant getting top ranked D prospect who they'd have for years who is compared to Scott ******* Stevens in regards to how hard he plays and how he hits, you'd think anyone with even the slightest hockey knowledge would see that's something we desperately need. I know I could deal.

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Edmonton looking pretty good tonight. Not looking forward to playing them tomorrow. They're finally starting to get their s*** together up there..tons of scoring, picked up some tough forwards, finally got some D (Hey Holland, Larsson may have cost Edmonton Hall, and they may have lost the trade, but that's how you get good players you need to fill holes. Take note.), got a solid starting goalie in Talbot. Once they finally changed the old boys 80's dynasty club for better coaching and management, it's come together pretty quick.

Maroon-McDavid-Eberle

Pouliot-Nugent Hopkins- Pulijujarvi

Lucic-Draisaitl-Kassian

Lander-LeTestu-Pitlick

 

Klefbom-Larsson

Sekara-Gryba

Nurse-Benning

 

Talbot

Gustavsson

 

Not bad.

Edited by chaps80

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4 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Okay but you do realize that if we didn't move Datsyuk's cap hit the fans would be saying "He's such a bad GM, he couldn't even more Datsyuk's contract, the guy does nothing!"

Hindsight = 20/20 

Most people think this anyway. What would of been any different. None would of cared once Stamkos resign up TB without even looking our way. At least we would of had Chych, not Nielsen at 31mil over 6 years. No Hindsight about it, doesn't take a hockey insider to know Stamkos wasn't coming here, Chych was a top 5 pick from almost half of last year we had a rare chance to get a top 5 at least top 10 talnet in the draft at our weakest position and pissed it away.

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5 minutes ago, xault said:

Most people think this anyway. What would of been any different. None would of cared once Stamkos resign up TB without even looking our way. At least we would of had Chych, not Nielsen at 31mil over 6 years. No Hindsight about it, doesn't take a hockey insider to know Stamkos wasn't coming here, Chych was a top 5 pick from almost half of last year we had a rare chance to get a top 5 at least top 10 talnet in the draft at our weakest position and pissed it away.

Actually there IS hindsight. If Nielsen had 20 points in 12 games and leading the league you or anyone else wouldn't be making this argument. Also let's not start overrating Chych, we don't even know if he's going to be a flub. Not to mention a lot superstar defenseman aren't actually out of the top 5 or 10 talent of the draft. Defenseman are some of the hardest prospects to predict when it comes to how good they're going to be. 

Edited by kickazz

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4 minutes ago, xault said:

Most people think this anyway. What would of been any different. None would of cared once Stamkos resign up TB without even looking our way. At least we would of had Chych, not Nielsen at 31mil over 6 years. No Hindsight about it, doesn't take a hockey insider to know Stamkos wasn't coming here, Chych was a top 5 pick from almost half of last year we had a rare chance to get a top 5 at least top 10 talnet in the draft at our weakest position and pissed it away.

There is a lot wrong with this. Many hockey insiders thought he was coming here. TSN listed the Wings as the favourites to land him the day before he signed in TB. The only people that thought the Wings had zero change are cynical Wings fans who like to create the false narrative that we cant lure free agents. This post is the definition of hindsight being 20/20, kickazz is 100% right. Had Stamkos not signed in TB and then been a UFA who Holland could not have afforded him, Wings fans would have gone absolutely nuts! You had to do what you could for a chance at Stamkos. Holland has made mistakes, but this one was the right move at the time and anyone to tell you other wise is basing it on what happened after the fact.

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I wouldn't of cared at all if he had 20points in 12games. Because I don't get cough up in fools gold that's 31 years old. Like I said, we had a chance at a top 5-10 talent and pissed it away. Something we've not had a chance at in over 20 years. I'd rather not taken a contact+player like Nieslsen and taken a chance on Chych. 

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2 minutes ago, kliq said:

There is a lot wrong with this. Many hockey insiders thought he was coming here. TSN listed the Wings as the favourites to land him the day before he signed in TB. The only people that thought the Wings had zero change are cynical Wings fans who like to create the false narrative that we cant lure free agents. This post is the definition of hindsight being 20/20, kickazz is 100% right. Had Stamkos not signed in TB and then been a UFA who Holland could not have afforded him, Wings fans would have gone absolutely nuts! You had to do what you could for a chance at Stamkos. Holland has made mistakes, but this one was the right move at the time and anyone to tell you other wise is basing it on what happened after the fact.

Why would insiders think he was going to Detroit if Holland didn't even end up getting a damn meeting with him? Makes you wonder where they get this "insider" info from.

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Case and point, you don't hear complaints about the Vanek signing. If that guy hadn't been producing and leading the team in points we'd be hearing things like "See what a waste of a signing that was, we should have just let the young kids play blah blah blah Holland sucks, they're screwing Mantha out of his play time"

Instead we see people post "Omg this team needs Vanek back" "I miss Vanek" "Vanek at the Disco baby!!!!" 

 

Edited by kickazz

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21 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Why would insiders think he was going to Detroit if Holland didn't even end up getting a damn meeting with him? Makes you wonder where they get this "insider" info from.

The TSN guys led by Bob Mckenzie are good, I wouldn't question their credibility. Remember, if you go back to that time they didn't know that Stamkos was done taking meetings, in their minds at the time he just hadn't met with the Wings yet. If I remember correctly, he met with the Leafs and TB then realized he wanted to stay in TB.

My guess is that after one meeting outside of TB, Stamkos felt like anywhere but TB wasn't right and didn't want to waste anyone else s time. I dont think this was a result of poor approach on the part of Holland or any other GM's, if anything give the credit to Yzerman as he obviously did one hell of a job in his meeting selling Stamkos on TB.

Edited by kliq

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3 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Case and point, you don't hear complaints about the Vanek signing. If that guy hadn't been producing and leading the team in points we'd be hearing things like "See what a waste of a signing that was, we should have just let the young kids play blah blah blah Holland sucks, they're screwing Mantha out of his play time"

Instead we see people post "Omg this team needs Vanek back" "I miss Vanek" "Vanek at the Disco baby!!!!" 

 

While i've been a fan of the Vanek signing from the start (former 30 goal scorer, contract just bought out, wants to show he still has it, picked up for 2.6 million for one season) and it has worked out well so far..even if it didn't, it wasn't much of a gamble for potential huge rewards. Nielson on the other hand is a big risk at 6 million for what is it? 6-7 years? I know he wanted long term and probably wouldn't have signed if he was only offered 2 years, but at this point it wasn't the best move with Dats' cap hit coming off the books at the end of this season. Holland could have waited to sign Dats' "replacement".

3 minutes ago, kliq said:

The TSN guys led my Bob Mac are good, I wouldn't question their credibility. Remember, if you go back to that time they didn't know that Stamkos was done taking meetings, in their minds at the time he just hadn't met with the Wings yet. If I remember correctly, he met with the Leafs and TB then realized he wanted to stay in TB.

My guess is that after one meeting outside of TB, Stamkos felt like anywhere but TB wasn't right and didn't want to waste anyone else s time. I dont think this was a result of poor approach on the part of Holland or any other GM's, if anything give the credit to Yzerman as he obviously did one hell of a job in his meeting selling Stamkos on TB.

Well put. Makes sense. Sucks that Yzerman's team has been the source of alot of troubles for the Wings the past couple years though. If only Holland had taken his promotion....

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6 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

While i've been a fan of the Vanek signing from the start (former 30 goal scorer, contract just bought out, wants to show he still has it, picked up for 2.6 million for one season) and it has worked out well so far..even if it didn't, it wasn't much of a gamble for potential huge rewards. Nielson on the other hand is a big risk at 6 million for what is it? 6-7 years? I know he wanted long term and probably wouldn't have signed if he was only offered 2 years, but at this point it wasn't the best move with Dats' cap hit coming off the books at the end of this season. Holland could have waited to sign Dats' "replacement".

You're probably right here, but when you have a mandate to make the playoffs, this is what happens. Not an easy task to re-build while making sure you make the playoffs every year. I like the addition of Nielson, but I also dont like the contract.

Edited by kliq

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4 minutes ago, kliq said:

You are probably right here, but when you have a mandate to make the playoffs, this is what happens. Not an easy task to re-build while making sure you make the playoffs every year.

Yeah. I guess until the Wings actually do miss the playoffs, Illitch's mandate won't change. Even then I doubt he'd want to commit to a full rebuild. Maybe Holland should have a talk with him and try to convince him to. The only fans that may complain would probably be the younger ones who have only known wins, playoffs, cups, and hall of fame players. It's pretty much agreed by most fans that this team needs a real rebuild. Rebuilding on the fly just leaves the organization spinning their wheels and bogging down early in the first round.

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1 minute ago, chaps80 said:

Yeah. I guess until the Wings actually do miss the playoffs, Illitch's mandate won't change. Even then I doubt he'd want to commit to a full rebuild. Maybe Holland should have a talk with him and try to convince him to. The only fans that may complain would probably be the younger ones who have only known wins, playoffs, cups, and hall of fame players. It's pretty much agreed by most fans that this team needs a real rebuild. Rebuilding on the fly just leaves the organization spinning their wheels and bogging down early in the first round.

I think re-building on the fly can work if it's done the right way. The best example I can give is the Wings in 2008. Of course they still had Lidstrom which was a HUGE help, but that team was completely transformed from the teams of the late 90's and in between they never had to crash to the bottom of the standings.

It can work if you give your kids a chance to play with the vets, the issue I have right now with the Wings is the fact that guys like AA, Sproul, XO, Mantha etc. are not getting the ice time they should be getting. I have no issue with having some vets (ie. guys like Helm and Abby), my issue is with guys like Miller, Ott, and E that dont deserve to be on the roster and are not as good as the kids. Make those swaps, pull off a trade for a top D-man (ie. Trouba) and I think this team is in good shape. 

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I was just saying that don't be fooled by Holland when he says Nielsen was his first choice. We all felt that if Holland didn't move Pav's contract he should be fired. It's just more lies trying to fool the fans that he wasn't interested in Stamkos in the first place by saying Nielsen was his first choice. 

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

I was just saying that don't be fooled by Holland when he says Nielsen was his first choice. We all felt that if Holland didn't move Pav's contract he should be fired. It's just more lies trying to fool the fans that he wasn't interested in Stamkos in the first place by saying Nielsen was his first choice. 

When did Holland say that he wanted Nielson over Stamkos? All I have heard him say is that Nielson was his first choice in free agency. Stamkos never hit free agency, so I don't see how that is a "lie". Or did he say flat out that he wanted Nieson over Stamkos? If he did, my bad and that is a stupid statement.

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Nah i'm sure he wanted Stamkos above all, just like any team with cap room did. When he didn't get a meeting and Stamkos stayed in Tampa, he targeted Nielson once July 1 hit. I think that was a panic reflex move though. Some fans were already questioning the move that sent Dat's ghost contract to Arizona and cost them Chychrun, and he felt pressure to make that open cap room turn into something that would help the loss of Dats' goal scoring. He ended up giving Nielson too long a contract and a NMC because he wanted him signed quickly so he'd look like that was his backup target all along and he didn't come out of free agency without one of the high profile players locked up.

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1 minute ago, DatsyukianDekes said:

Neilson is a 45-50 point two way center, why are people expecting him to all of a sudden replace Datsyuk? or people pretending to know what went on in discussions.

I dont think anyone on here was expecting him to come in here and replicate what Datsyuk did in his prime. Most people were expecting him to replace the 2016 version of Datsyuk who scored 49 points. I think he can do that.

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