Ken Holland's Achievements

[Dominator2005 558]

12 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

And thats why i can see firing him. Hes handed out the contracts and NTCs that will make a rebuild very difficult for any GM. If starting fresh is a must i will understand. But also understand this may be his FIRST losing season ever. Would be a shame not to give a legendary GM a shot at navigating that. Weve never seen him do it. Maybe hed be good at it. No one knows.

His goal is to keep playoff streak alive so he's trying to create a playoff contenders and not SC contenders... rebuilding will take 3-6 years and if that's the way organization wants to take well it will need to start with a new GM

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

And just for the record, i wanted Yzerman to have Kens job back when. But it is what it is. Not sure whod we replace Holland with now which is scary.

I can see organization pushing for Draper even if I disagree

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, Dominator2005 said:

Well find it and you will see that Bowman wanted Schneider (or Brisebois) and KH wanted to keep Avery. It's been a while but ultimate decision was made by Bowman. That was KH strength to have right people around him, he was a Bowman's "yes-man".

I dont disagree with u, but to be fair man its on you to provide evidence to prove your own point.

Is it not every executives job to have the right brains around them? An executives job is to listen to all his people, weigh those options, then make the final decision. Im a director at my company, and while i dont get final say, i have heavy influence on my CEO. Im often asked to way "weigh in" on a decision. Sometimes my advice is taken, sometimes its not. You dont become a  successful exec by being a yes man for 25 years. Bowman was a genius, but that shouldnt take away from Holland.

[kliq 3,763]

6 minutes ago, Dominator2005 said:

Well find it and you will see that Bowman wanted Schneider (or Brisebois) and KH wanted to keep Avery. It's been a while but ultimate decision was made by Bowman. That was KH strength to have right people around him, he was a Bowman's "yes-man".

You are really spinning it. Sure Bowman is in the room, and yes Holland is talking it over with Bowman, but to me its pretty clear that Holland is the one in the drivers seat and Bowman is acting in an advisory role. Not to mention, Holland is the one on the phone talking to other GM's not Bowman. In the documentary you see him do the Wooley trade, and you see him on the phone with the Phoenix GM.

As far as Holland thinking its too much to get rid of Avery, you are right but so does Bowman, here is the convo:

Holland: "There's not alot of guys like Avery" "Too much, ehh Scotty"

Bowman: "I think so....I mean" 

Then Bowman stops taking. Not exactly pulling the strings like you suggest. (4:50 mark)

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 minutes ago, Dominator2005 said:

His goal is to keep playoff streak alive so he's trying to create a playoff contenders and not SC contenders... rebuilding will take 3-6 years and if that's the way organization wants to take well it will need to start with a new GM

I can see organization pushing for Draper even if I disagree

That WAS hollands goal. Once the streak is dead it will be his goal to return to contention. If he has even half a brain he will know that the same strategy of the last 6 years will need to be altered. Losing is the wake up call so to speak. Will be interesting to see what he does with it.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

So this is purely word of mouth, but my friend's uncle works in the press box with the Wings.  Rumor from him is that if they keep losing, Blashill is out and Torchetti is in as head-coach (interim I would guess).  Apparently, Blashill is a very ho-hum coach with little to no heart in the locker room.  That's what the press box folks are saying.  Also, Chelios has taken to referring to Blashill as "Jeff Blash s***."  Again, this could be exaggerated, but I find it very interesting that Holland didn't come to defend Blashill in the latest article I read (when the interviewer asked about Blashill's status).  I feel like Holland always openly supports his staff/players when asked about how they're doing.

Take it as you will. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 minutes ago, kliq said:

You are really spinning it. Sure Bowman is in the room, and yes Holland is talking it over with Bowman, but to me its pretty clear that Holland is the one in the drivers seat and Bowman is acting in an advisory role. Not to mention, Holland is the one on the phone talking to other GM's not Bowman. In the documentary you see him do the Wooley trade, and you see him on the phone with the Phoenix GM.

As far as Holland thinking its too much to get rid of Avery, you are right but so does Bowman, here is the convo:

Holland: "There's not alot of guys like Avery" "Too much, ehh Scotty"

Bowman: "I think so....I mean" 

Then Bowman stops taking. Not exactly pulling the strings like you suggest. (4:50 mark)

 

Lol i actually remember watching this back in the day. But yeah Holland never did anything. Bowman was on the horn making calls. Get real ppl. 

9 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

So this is purely word of mouth, but my friend's uncle works in the press box with the Wings.  Rumor from him is that if they keep losing, Blashill is out and Torchetti is in as head-coach (interim I would guess).  Apparently, Blashill is a very ho-hum coach with little to no heart in the locker room.  That's what the press box folks are saying.  Also, Chelios has taken to referring to Blashill as "Jeff Blash s***."  Again, this could be exaggerated, but I find it very interesting that Holland didn't come to defend Blashill in the latest article I read (when the interviewer asked about Blashill's status).  I feel like Holland always openly supports his staff/players when asked about how they're doing.

Take it as you will. 

Wow thanks for this. I used to know Dan Milstein pretty well and always appreciated his updates about Dats. I dont know much about Torchetti tbh. Blash has got to go thou. Maybe Torch can be our Mike Sullivan?

Edited December 27, 2016 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[SwedeLundin77 460]

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Lol i actually remember watching this back in the day. But yeah Holland never did anything. Bowman was on the horn making calls. Get real ppl. 

Wow thanks for this. I used to know Dan Milstein pretty well and always appreciated his updates about Dats. I dont know much about Torchetti tbh. Blash has got to go thou. 

 

Yeah, I agree.  I would have thought that he'd be gone by now, considering last year and now the start of this season.  I hate the fact that Holland is basically standing pat instead of shaking things up now, while there is still a chance to turn things around.   I don't think Torchetti is the long-term answer, but give him a chance to help turn this season around.  Blashill just doesn't show any emotion and it's frustrating when the team is playing so poorly.  His lines and TOI management is also beyond frustrating.  AA is finally above the 4th line, but he should have been playing at least 2nd line all season so far.  Sheahan should have been on the 4th line after the first 2 weeks, and should have been benched multiple times.  It's not all Blashill's fault, but these are the same guys he had a lot of success with in the AHL, so he should be able to get more out of them.  Holland needs to fix a lot and stop signing terrible contracts and handcuffing the team's future.    Holland needs to go, but I don't know who would replace him.  Maybe Jimmy D.  It just sucks that we let Yzerman go and then let Nill go.  I'd take either one here in a heartbeat.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Yeah, I agree.  I would have thought that he'd be gone by now, considering last year and now the start of this season.  I hate the fact that Holland is basically standing pat instead of shaking things up now, while there is still a chance to turn things around.   I don't think Torchetti is the long-term answer, but give him a chance to help turn this season around.  Blashill just doesn't show any emotion and it's frustrating when the team is playing so poorly.  His lines and TOI management is also beyond frustrating.  AA is finally above the 4th line, but he should have been playing at least 2nd line all season so far.  Sheahan should have been on the 4th line after the first 2 weeks, and should have been benched multiple times.  It's not all Blashill's fault, but these are the same guys he had a lot of success with in the AHL, so he should be able to get more out of them.  Holland needs to fix a lot and stop signing terrible contracts and handcuffing the team's future.    Holland needs to go, but I don't know who would replace him.  Maybe Jimmy D.  It just sucks that we let Yzerman go and then let Nill go.  I'd take either one here in a heartbeat.

Agreed brother

[kickazz 5,459]

This thread is the perfect venting thread. Whoever made it props. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

 Four Red Wings — Yzerman, Chelios, Shanahan and Lidstrom — even deferred part of their pay to allow the Wings to sign Hull. Believe me, you will never see the New York Yankees do that.

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columns/ted/2002-06-14.htm

[kickazz 5,459]

3 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

 Four Red Wings — Yzerman, Chelios, Shanahan and Lidstrom — even deferred part of their pay to allow the Wings to sign Hull. Believe me, you will never see the New York Yankees do that.

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columns/ted/2002-06-14.htm

I thought that was common knowledge? 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

1 hour ago, Dominator2005 said:

Well find it and you will see that Bowman wanted Schneider (or Brisebois) and KH wanted to keep Avery. It's been a while but ultimate decision was made by Bowman. That was KH strength to have right people around him, he was a Bowman's "yes-man".

That video posted in the thread made it pretty clear that Bowman thought Avery as part of the Schneider deal was too much as well.  Apparently Holland changed his mind later, or the other trade just plain fell through and that was their best option.

 

2016 Holland would never make that deal though.  Can't trade away a home grown kid.

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

I thought that was common knowledge? 

At the time it was.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[kickazz 5,459]

6 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

At the time it was.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?

It still is common knowledge, why do you assume it's not? Some people might not have paid attention at the time but those who did still remember. Some people forget and remember when it's talked about. It's not that serious. 

Google searching it popped up on my feed as a top link. A lot of news back then was still paper rather than online. Anything in the more modern internet era will stay around for ages. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by kickazz

[kliq 3,763]

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

 Four Red Wings — Yzerman, Chelios, Shanahan and Lidstrom — even deferred part of their pay to allow the Wings to sign Hull. Believe me, you will never see the New York Yankees do that.

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columns/ted/2002-06-14.htm

Thanks for posting. I'm not sure why but I never knew that.

You cant blame me for asking considering I didn't know, especially with all the BS "facts" that certain posters have been putting out there lately (not you).

Edited December 27, 2016 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

11 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Not sure whod we replace Holland with now which is scary.

That's the problem. People want the guy fired. (I want us to move on in 2018 and honor his contract), but who is actually going to do a job that meets fans' expectation? 

It's like Blashill/Babcock all over again. A lot of people wanted Babcock gone and now that we have a replacement in Blashill we see how much hate Blashill's getting.

Even with a new GM, that doesn't take away all the contracts we're locked down with.

If Kris Draper became our GM I would laugh my ass off to eternity. Love the player but not sure I see him as a GM yet.

Edited December 27, 2016 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

That's the problem. People want the guy fired. (I want us to move on in 2018 and honor his contract), but who is actually going to do a job that meets fans' expectation? 

It's like Blashill/Babcock all over again. A lot of people wanted Babcock gone and now that we have a replacement in Blashill we see how much hate Blashill's getting.

Even with a new GM, that doesn't take away all the contracts we're locked down with.

If Kris Draper became our GM I would laugh my ass off to eternity. Love the player but not sure I see him as a GM yet.

Yup. Everyone says screw tier 1 coach "his voice is stale" (whatever that means) bring on blash. Now look at us. Holland will probably be missed when hes gone. 

[frankgrimes 1,836]

That's the problem. People want the guy fired. (I want us to move on in 2018 and honor his contract), but who is actually going to do a job that meets fans' expectation? 
It's like Blashill/Babcock all over again. A lot of people wanted Babcock gone and now that we have a replacement in Blashill we see how much hate Blashill's getting.
Even with a new GM, that doesn't take away all the contracts we're locked down with.
If Kris Draper became our GM I would laugh my ass off to eternity. Love the player but not sure I see him as a GM yet.

Jason Botterill, Don Maloney, Doug Armstrong (if the Blues move on from him), Brisebois (AGM in Tampa)

The Wings can honor his contract by making him vice president of hockey too.

Draper would be the wrong choice, he doesn't have the experience and he doesn't know how to do a rebuild either. Love the player but that wouldn't end well make him the interim GM till someone who the Wings really want is available.

[kickazz 5,459]

All I know is that as an original 6 franchise, they better get a godamn good replacement. As much as I hate Toronto when they hired their new folks for their re-build they got some big guns in Shanny, Babcock, Lou.

If people want Holland to go just for the sake of it, that's ridiculous. We HAVE to have a superior replacement, simple as that. Otherwise it's a dumb decision to let him go and likely will result in the team getting worse and worse. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by kickazz

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

40 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

 

Jason Botterill, Don Maloney, Doug Armstrong (if the Blues move on from him), Brisebois (AGM in Tampa)

The Wings can honor his contract by making him vice president of hockey too.

Draper would be the wrong choice, he doesn't have the experience and he doesn't know how to do a rebuild either. Love the player but that wouldn't end well make him the interim GM till someone who the Wings really want is available.

 

Jason Botterill?  Guy was an NHL first round bust, who became an AHL scrapper.  I didn't know he was working his way up in a front office.  Interesting.  

29 minutes ago, kickazz said:

All I know is that as an original 6 franchise, they better get a godamn good replacement. As much as I hate Toronto when they hired their new folks for their re-build they got some big guns in Shanny, Babcock, Lou.

If people want Holland to go just for the sake of it, that's ridiculous. We HAVE to have a superior replacement, simple as that. Otherwise it's a dumb decision to let him go and likely will result in the team getting worse and worse. 

We need a man with experience who holds his players accountable.

 

 

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

1 hour ago, F.Michael said:

Now - if you were to photoshop a tiny brown mustache under his nose...

I didn't know you were a Charlie Chaplin fan.  

[kliq 3,763]

4 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

Draper would be the wrong choice, he doesn't have the experience and he doesn't know how to do a rebuild either. Love the player but that wouldn't end well make him the interim GM till someone who the Wings really want is available.

To be fair though, every point you have made against Draper could have been used against Yzerman a few years back. 

Personally I would be interested in seeing what Ken Holland could do if he was given the green light to no longer worry about making the playoffs for a few years. 

As far as the long term contracts go, I'm not too worried. A couple dont hurt (just look at TO signing Martin). The one's I dont mind are Abby/Helm, and contracts like Zetterberg and Franzen should be easy to trade once the cash amount per year drops (ie. a Pronger situation for a floor team). Howard I think can be traded, if we begin to really struggle I think Nielsen would drop his no-trade clause and I would put money on it that Kronwall is permanently on LTIR in a year or so. The only one that really may bite us IMO is E. Come on Vegas....you need a big D-man!

Edited December 27, 2016 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

2 minutes ago, kliq said:

To be fair though, every point you have made against Draper could have been used against Yzerman a few years back. 

Personally I would be interested in seeing what Ken Holland could do if he was given the green light to no longer worry about making the playoffs for a few years. 

Yeah Yzerman looks good now but that's in hindsight with the Tampa Bay successes. Draper in hindsight might end up being good or bad, we won't know. I agree, if Holland was given the green light we could see a different GM approach.

Maybe the problem is the constraints put on by the ownership for us to make playoffs. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by kickazz

[kliq 3,763]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Yeah Yzerman looks good now but that's in hindsight with the Tampa Bay successes. Draper in hindsight might end up being good or bad, we won't know. I agree, if Holland was given the green light we could see a different GM approach.

Maybe the problem is the constraints put on by the ownership for us to make playoffs. 

That is what I think, though I will be the first to admit it is pure speculation on my part. 

I have mentioned before, I am a GM for the company I work for. I have pretty much free reign to do what I feel is best for the company, but like most GM's I am given an overall direction by the owner of my company and my decisions have to fall in line with the big picture. I just cant see a world where a family like the Illitch's, a family that was known for being very involved back in the 90's would just tell Holland "do what you think is right, we have no opinion". I just have a hard time believing that.   

[frankgrimes 1,836]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Yeah Yzerman looks good now but that's in hindsight with the Tampa Bay successes. Draper in hindsight might end up being good or bad, we won't know. I agree, if Holland was given the green light we could see a different GM approach.

Maybe the problem is the constraints put on by the ownership for us to make playoffs. 

Well till I've seen a source claiming that he ownership is putting any constraints on Holland I have a hard time believing it. But even if it isn't I don't think Holland is the guy for a real rebuild. Look at Toronto under Burke the team needed a rebuild and he just wouldn't admit it or act in the best longterm interests because he never had to do one.

Botterill has seen the Pittsburgh rebuild, Brisebois the Tampa Bay one and Armstrong the Blues. Of course the guy I would really really want is under contract and might even sign an extension after his current one is up but there are options, that have experienced a rebuild. Yeah, the Wings are an Original 6 team and should get the best of the best but sadly neither the best coach nor GM are available.

[kliq 3,763]

40 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

Well till I've seen a source claiming that he ownership is putting any constraints on Holland I have a hard time believing it. But even if it isn't I don't think Holland is the guy for a real rebuild. Look at Toronto under Burke the team needed a rebuild and he just wouldn't admit it or act in the best longterm interests because he never had to do one.

Botterill has seen the Pittsburgh rebuild, Brisebois the Tampa Bay one and Armstrong the Blues. Of course the guy I would really really want is under contract and might even sign an extension after his current one is up but there are options, that have experienced a rebuild. Yeah, the Wings are an Original 6 team and should get the best of the best but sadly neither the best coach nor GM are available.

Toronto is a bad example as its a place where there have always been too many chefs in the kitchen so to speak. Even this current regime, all it takes is the board getting inpatient with the re-build and it would not shock me if things went south quickly. I am not a giant Burke fan or anything, but I dont think Burke was given free reign in TO.

As far as the Holland/Ownership thing, I understand how you are not sold on that as if memory serves me right you don't follow baseball. For me, the Tigers/DD/Illitch situation solidified it for me. 

I know I make it pretty clear that I am not an anti Holland guy. I appreciate what he has done for this franchise, and I do think he has one of the strongest resumes of any GM in history, With that being said, I agree with both you and kickazz in that when his contract is up I would like to see him placed in a different role, and in a perfect world Yzerman brought in as GM. It really bothers me that Yzerman is not apart of this organization anymore. I think Yzerman is more in tune with what is happening in 2016 then Holland. At the same time, what I dont want is another Babs/Blashill situation where people assume that different = better. Trust me people, it can get wayyyyy worse then it is now. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by kliq