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sputman

Wings In Running For Victor Ejdsell

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John Chayka?

And yeah, I think a guy with years of managerial experience and also a 20+ year relationship with the Red Wings organization would be given a similar opportunity.

Broadcasting I don't think is a fair example. The goal of broadcasting is ratings. It's reasonable to assume that a former player could generate interest (especially a popular one), plus there's also at least the illusion of expertise, which in TV is likely more important than actual expertise that no one knows about. But even in that there are plenty of examples of people from outside of hockey getting opportunities. 

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Me too...but if the guy grew up playing RW, at least that'd be better than trying to put a natural LW over there...

Sure. I guess I'm just saying we don't currently have many (any?) forwards who are firmly LW or firmly RW. Tatar can play either side. Mantha can play either side. Nyquist can play either side, and he's a former centerman. Abdelkader can play either side, and, if memory serves, he's a former centerman. Zetterberg can play any forward position. Larkin can play any forward position. Athanasiou can play any forward position. Helm can play any forward position. Sheahan can play any forward position. Glendening can play any forward position. Svechnikov can play any forward position.

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On 4/26/2017 at 11:44 PM, Buppy said:

I didn't say it does, but I would say it is a prerequisite. Those with the passion and interest needed to become a student of the game; to actually be an expert on talent analysis, or game theory, or what have you, are likely to have tried playing at some point.

I don't buy the "NHL club" angle. Sure, former players naturally have connections, and are thus more likely to find an opportunity than a common fan, but I would argue that they also have a high aptitude. Not because they are former players, but because the same qualities that helped them become players help to make them better scouts/coaches/GMs/etc. Of course, those who aren't former players can have those same qualities as well. And there are a large number of people in management positions who weren't, which proves there is plenty of opportunity for those not in "the Club".

There was never any assertion that a non-former-player or random fan can't become just as good or better than a pro, just a specific comment about a specific person. But in general, an average fan isn't going to be near as competent as someone doing it for a living, if for no other reason than the amount of time invested in gathering and analyzing all the information. You do something 40+ hours a week, every week, as your full-time job, you're likely to be well-informed at the very least. Spend an hour on a Saturday, or ******* around online at your real job hoping your boss doesn't catch you...then maybe you never even hear of one of the top prospects, and other people rightfully question your expertise.

 

This is my life.  I spend about 14 hours a day doing policy analysis for the Federal Government, and you would be amazed how many goofballs think they know more about this stuff than they do, and want to argue with you about it.  People don't realize the amount of information they AREN'T privy to because they (reasonably) spend all their time thinking about the information they ARE, and they begin to think they know a whole lot more than they do.  Not their fault, you only know what you're capable of knowing.  But there's likely quite a lot about playing NHL hockey that you need to have played at that level to understand.  Information you and I aren't privy to because we can only speculate about it.  For the casual fan, thinking about what makes a player successful in the NHL is almost entirely theoretical.  And in some areas, like talent scouting in any industry, you need people with experiential knowledge IMO.

 

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14 hours ago, Echolalia said:

I'm not suggesting I or anyone on the forums personally knows more about these positions than the people currently in them, but I do think there are way more people that are accepted into said positions based more on the fact they played in the NHL than any other merit.  Yzerman wanted to be a GM.  They immediately made him special assistant to the GM to learn directly from Ken Holland.  I wonder if the same offer would have been handed to a guy with years of managerial or actuarial experience who expressed the same interest.  Osgood wanted to be a tv analyst and was immediately given the job.  I wonder if the same opportunity would be given to the intern who's been studying the field all through college and invested years of time and money and effort to being the best he can be at it.

 

I do think that teams often promote home town heros to positions they haven't earned (yet), because they like the guys, want to take care of them, or think it will be popular.  There's a reason why Sakic runs the Avs, Hull ran the Stars, Stevens was in charge in New Jersey, Lowe and McTavish in Edmonton, and so on.  It does happen. 

But I don't think that means that other guys from outside the old boy network aren't getting chances either.  Kyle Dubas, Ryan Martin, the aforementioned Chayka, are all on the rise right now in their respective organizations.  I'm sure there are more if I dug in a little bit because analytics is on the rise and is ushering these guys into organizations.  BUT, while these guys didn't play NHL hockey, they aren't exactly "average joes" either.  They've all got years and years of training in things like statistical analysis, econometrics, organizational theory, etc.  A regular fan lacks the experiential knowledge of the player, and has nothing close to the  specialized knowledge these guys have.  So it's unclear what equities they'd bring to bear on scouting (for example) beyond "well I watch a lot of hockey", which is true of all these guys too. 

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10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 

This is my life.  I spend about 14 hours a day doing policy analysis for the Federal Government, and you would be amazed how many goofballs think they know more about this stuff than they do, and want to argue with you about it.  People don't realize the amount of information they AREN'T privy to because they (reasonably) spend all their time thinking about the information they ARE, and they begin to think they know a whole lot more than they do.  Not their fault, you only know what you're capable of knowing.  But there's likely quite a lot about playing NHL hockey that you need to have played at that level to understand.  Information you and I aren't privy to because we can only speculate about it.  For the casual fan, thinking about what makes a player successful in the NHL is almost entirely theoretical.  And in some areas, like talent scouting in any industry, you need people with experiential knowledge IMO.

 

Oh, you do policy analysis for 14 hours a day? Cute, I've read over 1,000 facebook posts about federal policy. Step to me.

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Any news as to where this kid is leaning towards signing for?  Thought originally he was making a decision by Wednesday,anyway I'm thinking that maybe our front office would have told him about the seasoning process we have and that may put him off coming here. 

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17 minutes ago, Andy Pred 48 said:

Any news as to where this kid is leaning towards signing for?  Thought originally he was making a decision by Wednesday,anyway I'm thinking that maybe our front office would have told him about the seasoning process we have and that may put him off coming here. 

Are we sure he even met with the Wings?

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21 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 

I do think that teams often promote home town heros to positions they haven't earned (yet), because they like the guys, want to take care of them, or think it will be popular.  There's a reason why Sakic runs the Avs, Hull ran the Stars, Stevens was in charge in New Jersey, Lowe and McTavish in Edmonton, and so on.  It does happen. 

But I don't think that means that other guys from outside the old boy network aren't getting chances either.  Kyle Dubas, Ryan Martin, the aforementioned Chayka, are all on the rise right now in their respective organizations.  I'm sure there are more if I dug in a little bit because analytics is on the rise and is ushering these guys into organizations.  BUT, while these guys didn't play NHL hockey, they aren't exactly "average joes" either.  They've all got years and years of training in things like statistical analysis, econometrics, organizational theory, etc.  A regular fan lacks the experiential knowledge of the player, and has nothing close to the  specialized knowledge these guys have.  So it's unclear what equities they'd bring to bear on scouting (for example) beyond "well I watch a lot of hockey", which is true of all these guys too. 

I would agree with this.  Obviously an NHL job is not a 100% exclusive thing, but its definitely a good ol boy network where former players get preferential treatment when considerations are made for office roles, regardless of their prior non-NHL experience, which was my original point.

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/hockey/blackhawks/ct-blackhawks-david-kampf-20170502-story.html

I wonder if this changes anything in the race for Ejdsell.  Would be nice to see the Wings win out on one of these promising European FA's.  

They've missed on many quality players in the last few years.  They can at least offer playing time (oh wait I forgot.  Holland and Blashill are still running things).  

Also, one of the articles (in Swedish) mentioned Ejdsell would be making a decision when he got home.  Is he home yet?  

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22 minutes ago, Ishuak said:

Also, one of the articles (in Swedish) mentioned Ejdsell would be making a decision when he got home.  Is he home yet?  

He is old school and travels by Viking longship. He's probably got another 4-5 weeks at least until he is safe in port.

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1 hour ago, sputman said:

He is old school and travels by Viking longship. He's probably got another 4-5 weeks at least until he is safe in port.

Hopefully Ægir provides him safe travels.

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4 hours ago, Ishuak said:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/hockey/blackhawks/ct-blackhawks-david-kampf-20170502-story.html

I wonder if this changes anything in the race for Ejdsell.  Would be nice to see the Wings win out on one of these promising European FA's.  

They've missed on many quality players in the last few years.  They can at least offer playing time (oh wait I forgot.  Holland and Blashill are still running things).  

Also, one of the articles (in Swedish) mentioned Ejdsell would be making a decision when he got home.  Is he home yet?  

Bowman now calls him "Mein Kampf"

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Hawks roster is to loaded  for him to get a place anytime soon. A year in Milwaukee then a chance with the Preds or 3 years in Toledo learning the process with a chance of a game in Grand Rapids then another year before a chance in the bigs if there's plenty of injuries. I can see why he's taking his time in deciding lol 

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22 minutes ago, Andy Pred 48 said:

Hawks roster is to loaded  for him to get a place anytime soon. A year in Milwaukee then a chance with the Preds or 3 years in Toledo learning the process with a chance of a game in Grand Rapids then another year before a chance in the bigs if there's plenty of injuries. I can see why he's taking his time in deciding lol 

I don't really think that's the case though.  Grand Rapids isn't teeming with quality NHL-level center prospects.  Only Holmstrom has a realistic chance of ever playing in the NHL regularly.  Guys like Lorito and Street aren't in anybody's plans for the future, so I'd expect that if Ejdsell chose Detroit he'd go right to Grand Rapids.  What he does there is anybody's guess, but I think that given our lack of quality center prospects (or centers at the NHL level) that his path to the big club is not noticeably different with Detroit than it would be with most other teams. 

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33 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Grand Rapids for a year or two or Sweden for more money and staying in his home country.

 

Tough call.

The average salary in Swedish Elite League is 200,000 and he'd make less than that as a rookie. You really think he'd pass up a chance at an NHL contract because he'll make about 100,000 more for a year or 2? If he makes it the NHL, even an entry level deal is about 4 times what he'd make in the the Swedish elite league.

Anyway, since he's signing as a free agent (and one in demand), his AHL deal might be something like what Street (275,000) Lorito (250,000), or Lashoff (250,000) make. And that's probably more than he'd make in the SEL 

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Those guys were signed to AHL deals, not a 2-way NHL contract.  Different stories.  And why would not coming over here now block him from coming later?  Play a year or two in the top league in Sweden and then come over to an NHL deal.  I know what I'd do.

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3 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Those guys were signed to AHL deals, not a 2-way NHL contract.  Different stories.  And why would not coming over here now block him from coming later?  Play a year or two in the top league in Sweden and then come over to an NHL deal.  I know what I'd do.

Yeah, that is true. So he will make less if he only plays in the AHL, but that was just an add on to my original point.

I just don't get your logic where you think he's valuing a year or 2 of the Swedish Elite League salary the development for an NHL career. Who's to say whether an NHL team would even want him in 2 years. Got to go for the opportunity while it's there. Even if your motivations are only monetary, getting in line for an NHL contract still makes more sense. Maybe he has a horrible agent, though...

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

If they won't want him in two years of playing in Sweden they won't want him after two years of the AHL. Teams always want talent.

Obviously, but if he sucked after 2 the AHL he just goes back home and keeps playing. But at least he tried the route toward playing in the NHL, becoming rich, etc.

Anyway, we don't even know how long he would be in the minors so this is all a guess. It just seems very ridiculous to say that he's going to turn down the opportunity just over some time in the AHL. He's not a Euro star, big buck player. He's a 21 year old, undrafted guy who's only played around 25 odd pro games. I'm sure he's dreamed of playing in the NHL and is probably just thinking that his dream is rekindled after not being drafted. We've had some prospects go back home after a few year when they see a lack of opportunity, but that's different than turn things down at very beginning of the road. And he was in a 2nd tier league, so who's to say that he would even think that more development time was beneath him.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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