Rumors Thread

[chaps80 1,591]

3 hours ago, gcom007 said:

This is exactly what I’m expecting.

Vanek on a cheap expiring contract only fetching a third from FLORIDA in the final hour last deadline shows that anything can happen.

I hope Green fetches a first, but he probably won't. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 hours ago, chaps80 said:

No he doesn’t deserve anything more than that. He doesn’t even deserve the $4 million qualifier right now. But if he continues playing well and they want to keep him, maybe offer two seasons at $2 million per? Spread that qualifier out a bit, maybe with performance bonus incentives? If he hits the bonuses, good. If not, nothing lost.

If he won’t budge on the $4 million, even though Holland, him, and his agent damn well know he doesn’t deserve it, then it should be a one and done thing. Don’t perform, were letting you walk July 1 without question.

I wish more contracts were set up this way... Imagine every player getting the same base salary, but being able to make the big money based on performance. It would eliminate those terrible contracts and buy-outs, but it would also eliminate the entry level guys out performing their contracts. We wouldn't have Nielsen making $5.25M for another 4 seasons, and you also wouldn't have McDavid, Barzal, Eichel, etc. putting up over a point per game and making under $1M. There would be no more signing big contracts and then coasting. Of course it will never happen, but it would be ideal in my opinion...

16 hours ago, brett said:

predictions

green for a 2nd and some ahl guy

nothing else\

I can see it being a 2nd and a legit prospect playing in the AHL (or juniors / college). We should get more than a 2nd and a career AHLer though. I'm still hopeful for that late 1st and I think we'll get it.

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, chaps80 said:

Vanek on a cheap expiring contract only fetching a third from FLORIDA in the final hour last deadline shows that anything can happen.

I hope Green fetches a first, but he probably won't. 

I don't think you can really compare a winger getting some of the most sheltered minutes in the league vs a defenseman that logs a ton of minutes and ranks 22nd in the league in points and 9th in the league in power-play points (which is where he would primarily be used if acquired) among defensemen. Both are / were on expiring contracts, and the salary doesn't mean a whole lot, because we can (should) eat half of it. Green at $3M as a bottom 3, power-play quarterback on a contending team should get us a very good return.

[Euro_Twins 4,477]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think you can really compare a winger getting some of the most sheltered minutes in the league vs a defenseman that logs a ton of minutes and ranks 22nd in the league in points and 9th in the league in power-play points (which is where he would primarily be used if acquired) among defensemen. Both are / were on expiring contracts, and the salary doesn't mean a whole lot, because we can (should) eat half of it. Green at $3M as a bottom 3, power-play quarterback on a contending team should get us a very good return.

I don't even think we have to retain salary. By then 2/3 of his cap will be paid so they'll only be taking on 2 million anyway. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

52 minutes ago, Euro_Twins said:

I don't even think we have to retain salary. By then 2/3 of his cap will be paid so they'll only be taking on 2 million anyway. 

The team trading for Green would only have to pay that much in actual dollars, but wouldn't they still have to have $6M in cap space to acquire him? At least that's the way I understood it. Could be wrong though. Regardless, we're in a position where we can retain salary, and if doing so lengthens the list of possible trading partners, it'd be dumb not to retain the max (50%).

Not retaining and retaining half could be the difference in a 2nd round pick and 1st round pick.

Edited January 29, 2018 by krsmith17

[kickazz 5,459]

55 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

The team trading for Green would only have to pay that much in actual dollars, but wouldn't they still have to have $6M in cap space to acquire him? At least that's the way I understood it. Could be wrong though. Regardless, we're in a position where we can retain salary, and if doing so lengthens the list of possible trading partners, it'd be dumb not to retain the max (50%).

Not retaining and retaining half could be the difference in a 2nd round pick and 1st round pick.

I would pay Green his entire salary if it meant 1st round pick 

[krsmith17 7,191]

28 minutes ago, kickazz said:

I would pay Green his entire salary if it meant 1st round pick 

Man, I wish I had your money... But yeah, I would too (if I owned / managed the Red Wings), unfortunately though, the most you can retain is 50%.

My bet is we retain between 25-50% and get a 1st or 2nd plus prospect... Maybe even a 1st plus prospect if we're really lucky... There will be somewhat of a bidding war for the only pending UFA offensive defenseman available. There will be a ton of teams interested in him (Washington, Tampa Bay, New York, Toronto, San Jose, Vegas, Winnipeg, etc.) Winnipeg just lost Trouba for 6-8 weeks, so maybe they get desperate...

Green can log a lot of minutes, but can also produce in a reduced role as a 2nd/3rd pair, power-play specialist. I think he would be a great add for any contending team.

[LoveMyRedWings56 73]

Reportedly Jacob Trouba is out 6-8 weeks with a supposed ankle injury, Cue the Mike Green to Winnipeg trade 2018 1st round pick Chevy and he's yours.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Man, I wish I had your money... But yeah, I would too (if I owned / managed the Red Wings), unfortunately though, the most you can retain is 50%.

My bet is we retain between 25-50% and get a 1st or 2nd plus prospect... Maybe even a 1st plus prospect if we're really lucky... There will be somewhat of a bidding war for the only pending UFA offensive defenseman available. There will be a ton of teams interested in him (Washington, Tampa Bay, New York, Toronto, San Jose, Vegas, Winnipeg, etc.) Winnipeg just lost Trouba for 6-8 weeks, so maybe they get desperate...

Green can log a lot of minutes, but can also produce in a reduced role as a 2nd/3rd pair, power-play specialist. I think he would be a great add for any contending team.

Hah yea I mean if I was the Red Wings.

Didnt realize 50% is max retained though

Edited January 29, 2018 by kickazz

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 1/27/2018 at 11:12 PM, MileHighWingsGuy said:

You guys crack me up worried about trade value while plodding out the same overpriced garbage night after night. Just sign Howard for the next decade and be done with it.

So we shouldn't worry about getting the biggest return on assets? OK. Let's just trade everyone away with the first offer that comes along. That's the smart way to rebuild. This team is years away from being a contender. A rebuild takes time and careful planning. Holding onto assets just a little longer in order to get maximum value back is how you do that. Even with the "overpriced garbage" on this team, you still try to get the biggest return you can, even if you have to wait. This team is not good now, nor will they be next year. Trading Howard now, at the TDL, over the summer or next season doesn't change that. But trading Howard at the right time and getting the most back does affect the rebuild. The more you get back, the more to rebuild with. I don't see why that's funny or difficult to comprehend.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

21 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

I'd buy that. 2 years for 2 million per with some shutout bonuses thrown in etc. Anything over, drop him.

The qualifying offer isn't $4 mil spread out over however many years, it's per season.  Also, bonuses can only be given in specific situations to rookies or older players on a one year contract

7 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I wish more contracts were set up this way... Imagine every player getting the same base salary, but being able to make the big money based on performance. It would eliminate those terrible contracts and buy-outs, but it would also eliminate the entry level guys out performing their contracts. We wouldn't have Nielsen making $5.25M for another 4 seasons, and you also wouldn't have McDavid, Barzal, Eichel, etc. putting up over a point per game and making under $1M. There would be no more signing big contracts and then coasting. Of course it will never happen, but it would be ideal in my opinion...

 

I think you'd see a lot more selfish, poor play, and players getting pissed at playing defensive roles.  It would also screw over a guy who might not score a lot but does other things to make him valuable, as well as guys who play on bad teams.  

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

The qualifying offer isn't $4 mil spread out over however many years, it's per season.  Also, bonuses can only be given in specific situations to rookies or older players on a one year contract

I think you'd see a lot more selfish, poor play, and players getting pissed at playing defensive roles.  It would also screw over a guy who might not score a lot but does other things to make him valuable, as well as guys who play on bad teams.  

There would obviously have to be more bonus incentives than just points. You'd have to take everything into account, from goals / assists to hits / blocked shots / faceoff percentage, etc. Imagine players actually being motivated to bring their all every night though. Most do anyway, but it would in theory eliminate players from floating, or at least fans calling them out for floating... How many times have we heard, so and so "is useless ever since he signed his big contract"... I know it would never really work though, and the PA would never go for it.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 1/26/2018 at 7:06 PM, joesuffP said:

Mrazek as an asset is still worth more to teams than Howard

Mrazek isn't worth anything

On 1/27/2018 at 1:55 PM, chaps80 said:

https://www.nhl.com/lightning/news/what-exactly-is-a-restricted-free-agent/c-721878

• Player does not have to take amount offered in a qualifying offer. After the offer is made they can reject it and remain an RFA, while negotiating for another amount.

 

That being said, if a player does sign the qualifier at any time, it becomes binding at the qualifying amount. So there is a small loophole. If there is another amount discussed and agreed on, he can reject the qualifier and sign for that amount if he chooses.

Not saying it’ll happen, but it’s perfectly legal under the CBA.

Also, the part of my post above about accepting the qualifier then renegotiating was wrong. He can’t sign the qualifier without the team being on the hook for full amount.

This is for players seeking more than their qualifying offer lol

In what world does a player turn down $4 million to take $2 million? Go ahead, I'm ready for the mental gymnastics

[LoveMyRedWings56 73]

2 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Would be nice to get it done early.

Agreed from the sound of things, I think they just might go ahead and move him early seeing that we're pretty much out of it as of now any ways.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Mrazek isn't worth anything

This is for players seeking more than their qualifying offer lol

In what world does a player turn down $4 million to take $2 million? Go ahead, I'm ready for the mental gymnastics

Says who?  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 minutes ago, Hockeymom1960 said:

Says who?  

I'm sorry your right, he's probably worth at least $1 million Koruna's to HC Vitkovice

[chaps80 1,591]

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Mrazek isn't worth anything

This is for players seeking more than their qualifying offer lol

In what world does a player turn down $4 million to take $2 million? Go ahead, I'm ready for the mental gymnastics

If it was only for players seeking more, i’m sure that would be written into the CBA alongside the RFA negotiation option. 

I didn’t say he WOULD take a lesser amount, just that it IS POSSIBLE for a player to agree to a lesser amount. $4 million is not locked in if he wants to work out another deal, upwards or downwards. 

No mental gymnastics there.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

12 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

If it was only for players seeking more, i’m sure that would be written into the CBA alongside the RFA negotiation option. 

I didn’t say he WOULD take a lesser amount, just that it IS POSSIBLE for a player to agree to a lesser amount. $4 million is not locked in if he wants to work out another deal, upwards or downwards. 

No mental gymnastics there.

Are you obtuse? It's not in the specified in the CBA because it's implied. No one says wow that's a great qualifier, but I'd like to take less money. I mean you could, but you'd be working against yourself...

Nope, you simply avoided the point. So less gymnastics, more high jump where the bar is the point....

Again, why on gods green earth would he negotiate downwards for less money?

Edited January 30, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[chaps80 1,591]

4 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

The qualifying offer isn't $4 mil spread out over however many years, it's per season.  Also, bonuses can only be given in specific situations to rookies or older players on a one year contract

I think you'd see a lot more selfish, poor play, and players getting pissed at playing defensive roles.  It would also screw over a guy who might not score a lot but does other things to make him valuable, as well as guys who play on bad teams.  

Yes the qualifier is per season. The $2 million per for two was just an example of how things could be negotiated if the Wings want to keep him and he wants to stay. He hasn’t earned the qualifier. If Holland can get him to pass on the qualifier, he’d still be an RFA and he can sign for any amount or term he wants to.

If bonuses are for one year deals, that would be a perfect opportunity for him to earn his money. Lower salary plus bonuses for one season.

I mean, the guy can’t honestly think he’s worth $4 million at this point and will be qualified. If he walks from Detroit he’s going to get a one year ‘show me’ deal at half that amount at most anywhere else in the league i’d think.

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Are you obtuse? It's not in the specified in the CBA because it's implied. No one says wow that's a great qualifier, but I'd like to take less money. I mean you could, but you'd be working against yourself...

Nope, you simply avoided the point. So less gymnastics, more high jump where the bar is the point....

Again, why on gods green earth would he negotiate downwards for less money?

Because he’s not worth the money? He won’t get $4 million anywhere else. So he doesn’t get qualified in Detroit, and instead of taking less to stay, he walks and gets less as a UFA anyways. Either choice he makes, he’s not getting that amount of money.

[chaps80 1,591]

It’s a very simple concept. If you can look past the fact you don’t want him around anymore that is.

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

It’s a very simple concept. If you can look past the fact you don’t want him around anymore that is.

I want him around, but I don't think what you're saying is correct. It just doesn't make much sense to me. I think if both parties agree on a qualifying offer, Mrazek would be making $4M, regardless of what he or the Red Wings believe he's worth. If management doesn't think he's worth the $4M on a one year deal, they won't qualify him, and either sign him this summer as a UFA (for less) or let him walk. If Mrazek thinks he's worth more than $4M (I doubt that's the case), he wouldn't sign the qualifying offer and test free agency. I've never seen a qualifying offer signed only for the player to take less or the team to offer more. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

12 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Yes the qualifier is per season. The $2 million per for two was just an example of how things could be negotiated if the Wings want to keep him and he wants to stay. He hasn’t earned the qualifier. If Holland can get him to pass on the qualifier, he’d still be an RFA and he can sign for any amount or term he wants to.

If bonuses are for one year deals, that would be a perfect opportunity for him to earn his money. Lower salary plus bonuses for one season.

I mean, the guy can’t honestly think he’s worth $4 million at this point and will be qualified. If he walks from Detroit he’s going to get a one year ‘show me’ deal at half that amount at most anywhere else in the league i’d think.

Because he’s not worth the money? He won’t get $4 million anywhere else. So he doesn’t get qualified in Detroit, and instead of taking less to stay, he walks and gets less as a UFA anyways. Either choice he makes, he’s not getting that amount of money.

You're still not understanding how this works...

If he doesn't get qualified he becomes UFA automatically. That's it. There's no more negotiating till UFA.

You have been suggesting he will be qualified at $4 mill and then voluntarily work out a lesser deal... which is why I'm asking you why in the heck would Mrazek voluntarily want to work out a less deal?

It’s a very simple concept. If you can look past the fact that you want him around that is.

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

I want him around, but I don't think what you're saying is correct. It just doesn't make much sense to me. I think if both parties agree on a qualifying offer, Mrazek would be making $4M, regardless of what he or the Red Wings believe he's worth. If management doesn't think he's worth the $4M on a one year deal, they won't qualify him, and either sign him this summer as a UFA (for less) or let him walk. If Mrazek thinks he's worth more than $4M (I doubt that's the case), he wouldn't sign the qualifying offer and test free agency. I've never seen a qualifying offer signed only for the player to take less or the team to offer more. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve...

Thank you, this is like beating your head against a wall lol 

[chaps80 1,591]

25 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I want him around, but I don't think what you're saying is correct. It just doesn't make much sense to me. I think if both parties agree on a qualifying offer, Mrazek would be making $4M, regardless of what he or the Red Wings believe he's worth. If management doesn't think he's worth the $4M on a one year deal, they won't qualify him, and either sign him this summer as a UFA (for less) or let him walk. If Mrazek thinks he's worth more than $4M (I doubt that's the case), he wouldn't sign the qualifying offer and test free agency. I've never seen a qualifying offer signed only for the player to take less or the team to offer more. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve...

I’m not talking about Mrazek signing any qualifying offer. He can reject it, remain an RFA, and negotiate another deal. It can be for any amount or term. If he signed the qualifier, yes, the team would be on the hook for $4 million. Or if he’s offer sheeted (not happening) and accepts, then Detroit has to match or let him go and take draft picks. Or, like you said, he can choose UFA and Detroit can sign him for less then. It’s all up to Mrazek basically. 

There are instances where players haven’t earned the set qualifier and deserve less. Just as there are instances where the player has earned the qualifier and deserves the same or more. It has to work both ways, or what’s the point of the RFA status? Both sides have to benefit. His qualifier is a set price if accepted, but it can be rejected and negotiations can then begin. Yes, it’s rare that those result in less money, but the fact is they CAN.

If you guys don’t agree with that, I dunno what else to say. Maybe the CBA should stipulate that any deal signed by an RFA has to be for more money if they reject the qualifying offer. But it does not. Loophole?

[chaps80 1,591]

50 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

Thank you, this is like beating your head against a wall lol 

I feel that way from this side as well sometimes. 

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

I’m not talking about Mrazek signing any qualifying offer. He can reject it, remain an RFA, and negotiate another deal. It can be for any amount or term. If he signed the qualifier, yes, the team would be on the hook for $4 million. Or if he’s offer sheeted (not happening) and accepts, then Detroit has to match or let him go and take draft picks. Or, like you said, he can choose UFA and Detroit can sign him for less then. It’s all up to Mrazek basically. 

There are instances where players haven’t earned the set qualifier and deserve less. Just as there are instances where the player has earned the qualifier and deserves the same or more. It has to work both ways, or what’s the point of the RFA status? Both sides have to benefit. His qualifier is a set price if accepted, but it can be rejected and negotiations can then begin. Yes, it’s rare that those result in less money, but the fact is they CAN.

If you guys don’t agree with that, I dunno what else to say. Maybe the CBA should stipulate that any deal signed by an RFA has to be for more money if they reject the qualifying offer. But it does not. Loophole?

This isn't what you were saying before though... You previously said that he can sign the qualifying offer and then negotiate for less. That is what people were disputing. If he signs the qualifying offer, he would make a minimum of $4M per for x years. He would be stupid not to accept such a deal, assuming it would be short term. However, unfortunately it may be stupid for the Red Wings to offer such a deal, unless he plays lights out for the remainder of the season. Anyway, yes, Mrazek can and likely will become a UFA this summer, and then he can, like any UFA, negotiate a deal with any team. I hope he remains with the Wings, but he'll probably look for a fresh start elsewhere...