2023 Playoffs General Thread

[kipwinger 8,533]

2 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

And another thing - pessimism is just not being a homer.

 

Pick the top 5 players off any of our cup teams.

 

Then pick the next 5 best players.

 

Then compare them to our top 5 and the next 5.

 

We f u c k i n g suck still right now.  We need an entire top line.

 

Lidstrom - Seider

Datsyuk - Dont Have

Zetterberg - Larkin

Rafalski - Dont Have

Chelios - Dont Have

 

Draper - Copp

Kronwall - Edvinsson

Filppula - Dont Have

Hudler - Raymond

Drake - Rasmussen

 

You can see its a HUGE stretch to even say these 2023 guys are equals of the 2008 guys.  We need Bedard in a bad way.  We have to get some talent.

I'm saying it's pessimistic because to prove your point you've taken the bleakest view of nearly every current Red Wings and romanticized all the older guys. In some cases laughably so. For instance, Raymond=Hudler? C'mon man? Hudler was in his Draft +7 season before he scored as well as Lucas Raymond did as a 19 yo rookie. If Raymond isn't significantly better in another 5 years then maybe you'll have a point, but for right now he's WAY ahead of Jiri Hudler. This is generally the problem with all these predictions, half the guys on the list aren't even close to being done developing. Edvinsson is only as good as Kronwall? How can you conclude that? He's played literally 9 games in the NHL and is MILES ahead of where Kronwall was at the same age. You've also left off half of our best prospects. Kasper, Berggren, Mazur, Wallinder all project as top six/top four guys and you've conveniently ignored them.

Another problem with the above is that you seem to be suggesting that there's some blueprint for winning teams and we just don't have the pieces. But that's misleading. The Bruins don't currently have any players as good as Datsyuk, Lidstrom, or even Zetterberg. Bergeron doesn't have the offense that either Datsyuk or Zetterberg had and they've got NOTHING like Lidstrom or Rafalski at the top of the defense. But they keep winning anyway. The 2019 Blues had maybe ONE player that would have cracked the top end of Detroit's 2008 lineup (Tarasenko), yet somehow they managed to ice a winner. The LAK won two cups with a team that was across the board worse than what we had in 2008. More rings though. Meanwhile, I probably don't have to remind you how many Cups Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Reilly, McDavid, and Draisaitl have. Hell, how many playoff rounds have those guys won? Yet nearly all of those guys would have been at the top end of our 2008 team.

Finally, (and I've already stated this elsewhere) In at least two, maybe even three, of the last five years we've gotten the best or second best player in the draft irrespective of whether we won a lottery or not. We've taken the best guys we could take, developed them well, and they're improving the team. But it takes time. Drafting Bedard would help sure, but so will any number of other players we may take this year and next. None of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Hudler, Filppula, Franzen or most of the other players on the 2008 team were taken in the first round. Almost all of them had long development to become top players. In terms of team building the 2008 Wings were assembled MUCH more like the current Wings than the current Avs, Oilers, or Leafs.

The problem that fans (including you apparently) seem to have is that you want to skip the line. You want to draft a bunch of top end guys and then be good a few years later and it doesn't work like that. Victor Hedman and Steven Stamkos (the highest drafted players on the current Lightening) were almost 30 before Tampa was a contender. It takes time, even when you do everything right. And we didn't do everything right. We basically wasted 1st and 2nd round picks at the end of the Holland era.  Yzerman basically started from scratch four years ago. You can't turn a franchise around in four years even if you hit on almost every pick (and Yzerman mostly has). Give it a second. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

I dont want to skip the line.  I just want people (you) to understand that our top line is not a top line on a cup contending team.

Matthews/Marner/Nylander

McDavid/Draisaitl/Nugent-Hopkins

MacKinnon/Rantannen/Landeskog

Robertson/Hintz/Benn

Pastrnak/Bergeron/Marchand

 

Then 100 more 3 player combos before we get to: 

 

Larkin/Raymond/Perron

 

It's a fricking joke.  We need talent, and we are not getting it.

[kipwinger 8,533]

27 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I dont want to skip the line.  I just want people (you) to understand that our top line is not a top line on a cup contending team.

Matthews/Marner/Nylander

McDavid/Draisaitl/Nugent-Hopkins

MacKinnon/Rantannen/Landeskog

Robertson/Hintz/Benn

Pastrnak/Bergeron/Marchand

 

Then 100 more 3 player combos before we get to: 

 

Larkin/Raymond/Perron

 

It's a fricking joke.  We need talent, and we are not getting it.

4 of the 5 top lines you just mentioned have never even played in a conference final. One hasn’t left the first round. 
 

And you’re being disingenuous. Even the most generous forecast of the Wings doesn’t have us winning a Cup for another 3-5 years, at which point Larkin will likely be a 2C, Raymond will be WAY better than he already is, and Perron will be retired. 
 

The reality is that you have no idea what our lines will look like or how good our young guys will be in that timeframe. It’s WAY too early to tell. For example, If SY trades up for Will Smith and Kasper turns out to be as good as Kadri your prognosis is immediately invalid. That’s literally all it would take. Two very realistic events happen and your take is irrelevant. 
 

Also, none of us has a very good track record with prospect predictions anyway. You included. So why are you so sure that Raymond, Kasper, Mazur, Berggren, Sodorblom, Lombardi, etc. won’t be any good? We are the same people that hated the Seider and Edvinsson picks. The same people that thought Mantha was a stud and Zadina was a sniper and Cossa was a bust. Things change DRAMATICALLY with young players, even year to year, but you’re absolutely sure that none of our guys are top line players? On a scale of “Zadina is going to be awesome” to “Tyler Bertuzzi was picked a round too early” how sure are you?

[Walman6million 250]

Based on current discussion, look at Seattle's Daniel Sprong.

I really liked him in his draft year, and have sorta followed him ever since. He got drafted by the Pens in the 2nd. Disappointment, and traded to the Ducks. Disappointment, and traded to the Caps. Disappointment, and exposed to the Kraken at the expansion draft. Another bad first year with Seattle.

But now he suddenly has 46 pts in 66 games for the Kraken and is a pivotal forward on the team. We literally have the best team builder in the league in SY IMO. He's going to grab the Seiders and the Sprongs of the world.

Now worried. Just patient.

[Axl Foley 228]

St Louis didn't have any forward lines anywhere near that caliber when they won their Cup.

 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

21 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

St Louis didn't have any forward lines anywhere near that caliber when they won their Cup.

 

Tarasenko, O'Reilly, Schenn

[kipwinger 8,533]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Tarasenko, O'Reilly, Schenn

 

Might want to do a little research. Dylan Larkin scored more this year than any of those three did the year St. Louis won the Cup. Perron scored more this year than Schenn did the year they won the Cup. If those guys are capable of winning a Cup (and they did) than so are ours.

[Axl Foley 228]

2 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Tarasenko, O'Reilly, Schenn

None of those guys were "elite" tho. Nothing compared to what Edmonton, Toronto, or Boston have now. Or what Colorado had last year.

St. Louis won their Cup with a solid lineup from top to bottom without any holes or significant weaknesses. That is how I imagine SY is building this team.

[Walman6million 250]

24 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

None of those guys were "elite" tho. Nothing compared to what Edmonton, Toronto, or Boston have now. Or what Colorado had last year.

St. Louis won their Cup with a solid lineup from top to bottom without any holes or significant weaknesses. That is how I imagine SY is building this team.

Nah, Seider, Raymond, Kasper, Eddog, and Cossa are superstars. And I will villify and hate them if they become anything less. 

[ely s 457]

On 4/27/2023 at 2:58 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

I dont want to skip the line.  I just want people (you) to understand that our top line is not a top line on a cup contending team.

Matthews/Marner/Nylander

McDavid/Draisaitl/Nugent-Hopkins

MacKinnon/Rantannen/Landeskog

Robertson/Hintz/Benn

Pastrnak/Bergeron/Marchand

 

Then 100 more 3 player combos before we get to: 

 

Larkin/Raymond/Perron

 

It's a fricking joke.  We need talent, and we are not getting it.

Having one of the leagues top lines is nice but without a good surrounding cast, team chemistry and the right mindset its worth is limited.Step 1 is learn to play the right way, step 2 is to get used to winning and the numbers will follow.

I don´t know where this alleged lack of talent thing is coming from but I think we are loaded with talent, it´s just not developed yet and more to come with 5 picks in the top 50 in this years draft. Ras development isn´t done and he was picked in 2017. SY asked for patience and I´ll give him that.

To build a team, it takes more than putting together a bunch of high picks.

 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

Stamkos, Kucherov, Point

[Axl Foley 228]

3 hours ago, Walman6million said:

Nah, Seider, Raymond, Kasper, Eddog, and Cossa are superstars. And I will villify and hate them if they become anything less. 

You gonna be disappointed then cuz this team will be more like St. Louis than Colorado.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

7 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

You gonna be disappointed then cuz this team will be more like St. Louis than Colorado.

not if we get Bedard

[TLGTrico 627]

10 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

not if we get Bedard

Which we're not

[Dabura 12,207]

Isles are out, so our second 1st will be #18 - unless something crazy happens...

ON A COMPLETELY UNRELATED NOTE: How about those Panthers, eh?

Gimme Edvinsson-Gudas.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Dabura

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

4 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Stamkos, Kucherov, Point

1st rd

2nd rd

3rd rd

is this what your’re trynna say ya big ol dope 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

1st rd

2nd rd

3rd rd

is this what your’re trynna say ya big ol dope 

we need an impact player

[Dabura 12,207]

5 hours ago, ely s said:

Having one of the leagues top lines is nice but without a good surrounding cast, team chemistry and the right mindset its worth is limited.Step 1 is learn to play the right way, step 2 is to get used to winning and the numbers will follow.

I don´t know where this alleged lack of talent thing is coming from but I think we are loaded with talent, it´s just not developed yet and more to come with 5 picks in the top 50 in this years draft. Ras development isn´t done and he was picked in 2017. SY asked for patience and I´ll give him that.

To build a team, it takes more than putting together a bunch of high picks.

I think we all pretty much know the situation: Barring a miracle or two, we're building a team in the mold of the 2019 Blues. That is: a team that's short on gamebreaking, susperstar-tier talent - but solid from top to bottom and a pain in the ass to play against.

The bad news is it's probably gonna take a while for it all to come together. And I think that's what ticks people off. And I think that's understandable. Hell, I'm one of those people. I don't wanna wait for our lives to be over, I want to know right now, what will it be.

But the good news is...well... I suppose the good news would be that we do have some good young talent, and at least two of those young players - Raymond and Seider - were basically top-3 picks, and at least one of those two players - Seider - is exactly the kind of player championship teams are built around. It's absolutely silly that we got Seider at 6th overall. (And that Holland was two picks away from snagging him. lmao rekt)

Raymond struggled a bit this season, which has taken some of the HYPE! shine off his name. And that's understandable. But, still, the dude's put up 102 points across his first two seasons - and he turned 21 last month. He's far ahead of where Zetterberg was at his age. And, unlike Zetterberg at his age, he's not surrounded by all-stars and HOFers.

The Edvinsson HYPE! took a bit of a hit this season too, because a lot of people were hoping for a Seider encore and that very much did not happen. But the talent's 100% there and the potential is unreal and I'm fairly confident his floor - *FLOOR* - is basically taller Kronwall. He did make some mistakes in his short stint with the big club, but overall I thought he looked really good. The sky's still the limit for him, IMO.

Kasper was the guy I wanted us to take with that pick and we did and I was thrilled and I still am pretty thrilled. And the reason I'm thrilled is I've been saying for years now, re: our hole at the center position, that we need either a superstar or simply a second Larkin - and I'm confident Kasper can be the latter, and possibly quite soon, as his game's more mature than Larkin's was at his age. I love that he plays with an edge and always goes to the hard areas. "Pain in the ass to play against"? That's Kasper.

So that's all very good. It's pretty easy to miss on 1st-round picks, but, thus far, it seems SY's gotten it right. I really wish we had a 2nd/3rd/4th-round pick success story scoring 40 goals for us, but, well, we don't. And that's life. Maybe Mazur's gonna be that guy. Maybe Lombardi's gonna be that guy. Maybe Wallinder's gonna be that guy. Maybe Berggren ends up becoming a core player. We'll see.

Bottom line: We're all tired of waiting, but waiting's all we can really do at this point, and it's not all doom and gloom.

[Walman6million 250]

5 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

You gonna be disappointed then cuz this team will be more like St. Louis than Colorado.

 

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

I think we all pretty much know the situation: Barring a miracle or two, we're building a team in the mold of the 2019 Blues. That is: a team that's short on gamebreaking, susperstar-tier talent - but solid from top to bottom and a pain in the ass to play against.

The bad news is it's probably gonna take a while for it all to come together. And I think that's what ticks people off. And I think that's understandable. Hell, I'm one of those people. I don't wanna wait for our lives to be over, I want to know right now, what will it be.

But the good news is...well... I suppose the good news would be that we do have some good young talent, and at least two of those young players - Raymond and Seider - were basically top-3 picks, and at least one of those two players - Seider - is exactly the kind of player championship teams are built around. It's absolutely silly that we got Seider at 6th overall. (And that Holland was two picks away from snagging him. lmao rekt)

Raymond struggled a bit this season, which has taken some of the HYPE! shine off his name. And that's understandable. But, still, the dude's put up 102 points across his first two seasons - and he turned 21 last month. He's far ahead of where Zetterberg was at his age. And, unlike Zetterberg at his age, he's not surrounded by all-stars and HOFers.

The Edvinsson HYPE! took a bit of a hit this season too, because a lot of people were hoping for a Seider encore and that very much did not happen. But the talent's 100% there and the potential is unreal and I'm fairly confident his floor - *FLOOR* - is basically taller Kronwall. He did make some mistakes in his short stint with the big club, but overall I thought he looked really good. The sky's still the limit for him, IMO.

Kasper was the guy I wanted us to take with that pick and we did and I was thrilled and I still am pretty thrilled. And the reason I'm thrilled is I've been saying for years now, re: our hole at the center position, that we need either a superstar or simply a second Larkin - and I'm confident Kasper can be the latter, and possibly quite soon, as his game's more mature than Larkin's was at his age. I love that he plays with an edge and always goes to the hard areas. "Pain in the ass to play against"? That's Kasper.

So that's all very good. It's pretty easy to miss on 1st-round picks, but, thus far, it seems SY's gotten it right. I really wish we had a 2nd/3rd/4th-round pick success story scoring 40 goals for us, but, well, we don't. And that's life. Maybe Mazur's gonna be that guy. Maybe Lombardi's gonna be that guy. Maybe Wallinder's gonna be that guy. Maybe Berggren ends up becoming a core player. We'll see.

Bottom line: We're all tired of waiting, but waiting's all we can really do at this point, and it's not all doom and gloom.

Yeah well I think you both are ******* retarded.

"Boohoo we don't win draft lotteries so now we're building a STL level lowgrade wildcard cup team."

This is the honestly the worst take i've seen seriously made on this site in a while. And Scott exists.

You don't even have the ground to stand on of being a doom n gloomer. Ur just the same old limp wristed spoiled Wings fans from 97-08 who havent changed at all.

Seider is over here being a legit supestar at age 20. "But I didn't win this year". Oh no my second best player in his entire draft year didn't dominate his second season at 19/20 "waaaaaaa" Kasper and Edvinsson aren't on the team yet! "w'ere forever a second rate team"

Honestly consider necking yourselves, or go be pathetic Leafs fans or something. Cause you don't have the brains or patience to recognize what is being built here. Amateurs.

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Walman6million

[Akakabuto 1,756]

3 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

we need an impact player

And you bring up examples that was drafted outside of the first round and took years to develop into what they are today. The Red Wings are right now doing exactly what they have to do to find those. 

I get the frustration over us not being as far in the rebuild as we should be but thats on Holland. And crying and bitching about Holland is getting very old.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Akakabuto

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 hour ago, Walman6million said:

 

Yeah well I think you both are ******* retarded.

"Boohoo we don't win draft lotteries so now we're building a STL level lowgrade wildcard cup team."

This is the honestly the worst take i've seen seriously made on this site in a while. And Scott exists.

You don't even have the ground to stand on of being a doom n gloomer. Ur just the same old limp wristed spoiled Wings fans from 97-08 who havent changed at all.

Seider is over here being a legit supestar at age 20. "But I didn't win this year". Oh no my second best player in his entire draft year didn't dominate his second season at 19/20 "waaaaaaa" Kasper and Edvinsson aren't on the team yet! "w'ere forever a second rate team"

Honestly consider necking yourselves, or go be pathetic Leafs fans or something. Cause you don't have the brains or patience to recognize what is being built here. Amateurs.

 

Nobody here likes you or your sh**ty take on NHL hockey.

 

[Walman6million 250]

7 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

And you bring up examples that was drafted outside of the first round and took years to develop into what they are today. The Red Wings are right now doing exactly what they have to do to find those. 

I get the frustration over us not being as far in the rebuild as we should be but thats on Holland. And crying and bitching about Holland is getting very old.

It is on Holland. The Larkin/Bertuzzi/Mantha/Hronek era was Holland's version of a rebuild, and SY basically tore all that down and restarted us.

7 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Nobody here likes you or your sh**ty take on NHL hockey.

If you think SY is building 2018/19 Blues team that blows entire halves of seasons and then lucks its way into one cup every 60 years, then I'm also putting you on the short bus in the mornings.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

_______ - _______ - _______

Kasper-Larkin-Raymond

Rasmussen-Copp-Mazur

Berggren-Veleno-Rasmussen

Zadina/Fabbri

 

Walman-Seider

_______-Edvinsson

Maata-Johansson

Wallinder

 

Husso

Cossa

 

This is where we stand as of now with 17 months to go until the 2024-25 season.  We need an entire top line and a 2RD.  How do we get them?

 

 

[Akakabuto 1,756]

6 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

This is where we stand as of now with 17 months to go until the 2024-25 season.  We need an entire top line and a 2RD.  How do we get them?

We keep developing Raymond into a first line winger.

 

7 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Rasmussen-Copp-Mazur

Berggren-Veleno-Rasmussen

And then we clone Ras again but only this time max his goalscoring talent and make him shoot righthanded.

Finding a 1C is a pickle, though.

9 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Zadina/Fabbri

You honestly believe these two are still on the roster 24-25?

12 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

_______-Edvinsson

Colorado won last year with Erik Johnson as 2RHD. I bet we can find someone like him in FA.

[Axl Foley 228]

10 hours ago, Walman6million said:

 

Yeah well I think you both are ******* retarded.

"Boohoo we don't win draft lotteries so now we're building a STL level lowgrade wildcard cup team."

This is the honestly the worst take i've seen seriously made on this site in a while. And Scott exists.

You don't even have the ground to stand on of being a doom n gloomer. Ur just the same old limp wristed spoiled Wings fans from 97-08 who havent changed at all.

Seider is over here being a legit supestar at age 20. "But I didn't win this year". Oh no my second best player in his entire draft year didn't dominate his second season at 19/20 "waaaaaaa" Kasper and Edvinsson aren't on the team yet! "w'ere forever a second rate team"

Honestly consider necking yourselves, or go be pathetic Leafs fans or something. Cause you don't have the brains or patience to recognize what is being built here. Amateurs.

 

No one is talking about building a "lowgrade wildcard team". This team can actually be a future contender, but it's not going to have that elite talent that we have had in the past. That isnt a negative take. I see this as a team with high end, but not elite, talent with a solid, but deep roster that is more than capable of winning a Cup down the line. Calm down.