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No. What has turned this franchise into what it is is having sustained long term success in a league designed to prevent it. Implementation of a salary cap without even a luxury tax preventing signing of meaningful free agents, and then overpaying pending ones. Going long periods of time without high end draft picks, and missing on the lower ones that were awarded based on the way the draft is set up (punishing success, rewarding failure). No longer having the best scouting staff and pulling gems out of later rounds. Being incredibly unlucky in drafting defenseman and getting duds (Kindl, Smith), as well as fluke injuries/medical issues regarding defensemen who were actually very good (Vladi, Fischer, Kronwall). This team would not be any better today bringing up any of its past prospects sooner than it did. Blaming this team's current state of affairs on how it has handled its prospects in the past is quite irrelevant IMO. It's like that person you work with who blames all of their problems on whoever the President is. In reality, this has very little to do with their personal issues, but they don't like him, so he's a convenient scapegoat. In summary, this team's issues are multifaceted (as mentioned above). It's handling of prospects has never been one of them that i can recall. But it's easy to blame our downfall on that perception for those that didn't agree with it. It's just human nature I suppose.

At this point, I don't care who wins the Cup, just someone please knock off the Penguins!

You need to repair your sarcasm sensor

I'm pretty sure the Wings will be looking to take a defenseman with the first pick, but it's entirely possible that they decide an available forward is better than the available defensemen. Taking Svechnikov over anyone not named Dahlin is, to me, a no-brainer, but you could also make a case for Zadina or Tkachuk being every bit as appealing as any of Hughes, Boqvist, Bouchard, Dobson. I might be a little disappointed if we take Wahlstrom in the 6-8 range, but on the other hand, we're talking about arguably the top centerman in this draft class. Taking Veleno 8th overall? Could be a reach, but I'm not sure he's any less promising than Larkin was in his draft year. I'm so pumped for this draft. Lottery's only 12 days away! http://www.tankathon.com/nhl/mock_draft

This guy gets it.

This idea is simply wrong. The vets are not guaranteed anything nor preventing any kids from making the team. We could bring them all back, plus resign Green, plus sign Beauchemin, strap Vladdy to a sled and sign him to a 3 year deal, and if we go to TC and find 6 copies of prime Bobby Orr our defense next year would be 6 copies of prime Bobby Orr. In the whole of the cap era, the best young defenseman to lose out to a vet would be a toss-up between Ericsson and Quincey. How many Quincey-Ericsson-Kindl-Smith-Lashoff-Dekeyser-Almqvist-Marchenko-Ouellet-Sproul-Jensens will we go through before you start to consider the possibility that the next in line is not necessarily the next big thing, and that the reason they're getting passed over isn't because of vets or contracts or UFA signings, but rather because they just aren't that good? It's already been said that the Wings defense is a pretty low bar. If a Hicketts/Hronek/Cholowski/potential 2018 pick can't make it over that bar, we should probably temper our excitement for them.

Cholowski and Sambrook haven't even played for the Griffs yet but should both be NHLers one day. Sambrook will likely be a Dekeyser type (limited offensively but ok defensively). Cholowski should at least project as a second pair guy but may have first pair upside. He's a great passer, so maybe in the Brian Rafalski mold? Russo and Renouf/Lashoff/McIlrath (not mentioned above) are career AHLers. Hronek needs to get stronger but is a very good offensive defenseman. Very dynamic and creative player with plenty of offensive upside. Saarijarvi is too early to tell. He's a good skater, passer, and is pretty tough despite his size. He reminds me a bit of Ryan Ellis for the Predators. He's currently blocked by Hronek because they're both competing for PP time and to be the primary offensive d-man. Once Hronek gets promoted to the big club Ville will get those bigger minutes and powerplay time and we'll see what he does with them, but he's scored decently well given how few minutes he plays currently. Hicketts (I'm sure KRS will disagree) is nothing special. He's not overly fast, he's not overly skilled, he's small, but he's got gumption. He looked decent in his call up to Detroit, but that's misleading. He was gifted powerplay time and offensive zone starts and he had a very long rope. Had some brutal pinches and giveaways that, had the Wings been in the playoff hunt, would have had him benched (Blashill acknowledged as much). Finally, Libor Sulak is a bit of a darkhorse on the defense. He's older, just came over from Finland (where he toasted the Finnish pro league), and has 2 assists in 2 games for the Griffs. Excellent skater, decent size, offensize d-man, who's still learning the North American game and ice. Might be a decent find but hard to tell with such a small sample size. The big problem in Grand Rapids is that Lashoff, McIlrath, Renouf, and Russo are in the lineup every night so it's going to be hard for these young guys to get ice time to prove themselves. It's been discussed that one problem with the Griffs is that they play to win the Calder Cup, which means having a veteran heavy team, which means young prospects who have NHL upside don't have as many spots to take. Supposedly that's going to change after this season according to Griffs GM Ryan Martin. Anyway, just my two cents.

Holy wall of LeftWinger posts

Most of those Hall of Famers were much past their prime. Most of the best players of the 08 team was young. They would have beaten the 02 guys at their age in 2002. The Nashville and Dallas struggles you mentioned are nothing compared to the 02 struggle Avs gave the Wings. The Wings in 2008 were just better than most teams in every way. They literally had puck possession most of the game in every game. 08 team is underrated around here because we get spoiled by names like Hull, Robataille, Yzerman. Guys who were pretty far past their prime in 02. Yep. Sure can.

No.

I hope Bawston seals the deal tonight. The Leaf fans chirping is ridiculous where I live and would absolutely love if they could be done tonight!

I think there's a middle ground here. Have the Wings failed miserably to find D prospects who are actually worth a damn? Yes. Have the Wings been obsessed with stocking the depth chart with as much veteran depth as humanly possible and "overripening" prospects? Yes. Does the latter follow from the former? I would say that it does, but only to an extent. I would say the veteran roadblock thing has indeed been a real thing and that even prospects who are better than the Marchenkos and Jensens and Sprouls would have been held back for somewhat artifically created reasons as opposed to it being purely meritocratic. ("A young Lidstrom would make the team out of camp" isn't really an argument.) Hicketts probably should've made the team out of camp this season. Indeed, Cleary said he was damn close to making the cut. If a player is damn close to making the cut and all of the players who make the cut are veterans, it's fair to cry "ROADBLOCK!" and "DEJA VU!" Several years ago, Babcock wanted Ouellet on the opening night roster and Holland overrode him on it. This veteran thing is a thing. It is known. It has been known for a long time. Draper recently suggested there's been another component to all of this, which I guess you could characterize as "failings of the Wings' development program": We need to expedite this process. We need to get these kids bigger and faster and stronger, quicker, to come in and start challenging for spots. That’s how you get better. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2018/02/10/detroit-red-wings-kris-draper/323124002/ All I know for sure is I'm ready for 1) an influx of high-end prospects and 2) the already-underway youth movement. No more "We feel Libor Sulak has the potential to be a real good player for us in 20 years." Please, God, no more.

First try. Keeping the dream alive!

For some people, yes, but I think they're in the minority. Svechnikov is generally considered the top forward in this draft class. For all of the HYPE! around Zadina, Svechnikov quietly obliterated the OHL this season.

Statistically, it's the most likely scenario... There's a 65.5% chance we move back to 6 (34.5%), 7 (26.7%), or 8 (4.3%)... There's only a 26.1% chance we move up to 3 (8.9%), 2 (8.7%), or 1 (8.5%), and an 8.4% chance we stay at 5... F*** the stats though! We're moving up into the top 3!

Somewhat agree on Hicketts. He doesn't seem to be overly fantastic at anything in particular and he's undersized. I think there's some misplaced hope that he'll turn out like a Torey Krug (hope which I share) but that's probably too much to ask. But the kid really does have gumption in spades. He plays likes he's under the impression that he's 6'8", not 5'8". I love that, and it's an attitude/quality I want on the team, even if that's just in a bottom pairing role.

I'm counting on a trade or two. I'll be surprised if they send Rasmussen back to junior.

Penguins seem to make it work. But I get your point.

Some light end of season reading: https://www.si.com/nhl/2018/04/17/penalty-box-history-nhl-playoffs Also, if anyone hasn't heard, the Centre Ice Arena in Traverse City was blind sided last year by the NHL into having to spend $200K to upgrade both ice rinks to NHL standards. There was talk that the Wings would have to move the Prospect Tournament and Training Camp somewhere else if the remodel wasn't completed. That would be a shame as having it there in such a small, quaint atmosphere, getting that close to the players, just wouldn't be the same if it was held at LCA. It is a truly a unique experience. Imagine the Wings playing a scrimmage game at your local indoor ice rink, and bumping into and taking pictures with guys like Kris Draper, Chris Chelios, and Ken Daniels walking around. That's what it's like there. Even the worst seats are only feet from the ice surface, and you not only get to see all of the roster players (no healthy scratches) you also get to see all of the prospects. Luckily, it appears that arena is moving forward with the renovations, which would make sense considering the city generates far more than $200K each year from the Wings being there. And the Wings have agreed to stay there for at least the next 5 years if the renovations are made. This is good news as I plan on attending both the Prospect Tournament and Training Camp this year, and maybe take in some Upper Peninsula while I'm up there. They are currently taking Private donations as well. You can read about it here: http://themalikreport.com/2018/04/16/a-bit-more-about-centre-ice-arenas-fundraising-drive/

I agree 100%. Tkachuk is also listed as a slash too. He won't be a center at the NHL level. The highest ranked "true" Center is Veleno. Whenever I See C/LW or C/RW I always see that as the equivalent of "padding a resume". Svech Sr. was listed as a C/LW when he was drafted IIRC, but i don't think there's much argument about him being a winger at the NHL level. I think if it Dahlin and Svech are gone, I draft one of the D, then I look to trade up into the teens and draft Veleno if I can get him. The problem with that scenario is they'll probably want an early second back in the trade. I guess my point is, unless it's Svechnikov, there are too many good young D to draft a winger with the first pick.

I'd rather that then us sign a UFA to a multi year deal.

Kronwall Ready for Next Season Looks like he'll play out the contract and spend next year mentoring the kids. Perhaps this is one of the reasons motivating Holland to avoid FA and bring up more kids next year?

I guess extending that playoff streak doesn't seem so bad now, huh? It was all part of the long con.

The fundamental problem here is that the Wings' system is extremely low on players with really substantial trade value. (Another way of saying we don't have enough high-end talent.) This means that in addition to our trade options being incredibly limited, any big trades that we could pull off probably wouldn't do much for us -- and, indeed, could easily hurt us. Trade Larkin for a stud defenseman and now we're in need of a stud centerman, with only one other high-end centerman in the system (Rasmussen) and with no guarantee that the stud defenseman we're getting is going to work out for us the way we're hoping he will. Trade Mantha for a stud defenseman and now we're in need of a stud scoring winger, with essentially zero comparable wingers in the system and, again, with no guarantee that the stud defenseman is going to be a stud for us. Trade Svechnikov and you're not even getting a 1st-round pick in return. Nyquist might get us a 1st at next season's trade deadline. Trade Hronek or Cholowski and you're giving up one of our top two D prospects. This is why I'm so excited about the next couple of drafts. The Wings have learned to scrape by in drought conditions, but now they're finally in for some heavy rain. 21(+) picks across two very deep drafts means a hell of a lot more to the Wings than it would to most other organizations. The 2018 draft alone could totally reshape our talent pool. We could double the number of Rasmussen/Cholowski/Hronek-tier prospects in our system practically overnight.

hey Ken Daniels is commentating on Washington Columbus game. Pretty neat

Yeah but hockey is real.

Nevermind. I forgot who I was arguing with about Franzen. I may as well ask DraperFan (is he still around?) how he feels about Todd Bertuzzi.

This is right in Kenny's wheel house!!! 4 years $6Mill per come on Kenny lets see what your made of we didn't just re-up with you for nothing...lets see a glorious NTC thrown in to boot. Manning went to 2 Superbowls and won a Championship after his surgery, not the best of examples.

Regardless of what type of surgery it is, statistically he has a risk of further complications and another surgery. That's inherent of spinal/back surgeries in general. If he was like Zetterberg who was mid contract it would be one thing because we have no choice and hope for the best (so far so good). But for a team like us that's rebuilding. To sign a guy who is a free agent AFTER he had a spinal surgery? That's not really the smartest of decisions. We actually have a choice here. Walk away. We don't need him. If we resign him, do it for cheap. I mean like 2-3 million at most and only for a year. See how he does. God ffs stay away otherwise.

We're not going to have multiple defensive prospects in the press box. If they're not in the top 6, they will be in the minors where they should be. Better to have Lashoff/Russo/Sulak in those 7/8 spots. If we carry 8. Which we won't.

If you're going to respond to a week-old post at least have the decency to read the thread so you can offer something new to the discussion. You made me think I'd stumbled on to time travel, and now I'm sad. Jerk. Also, if your intent is to ask if the Wings will retire a number, you should edit the title. As worded it is clearly asking for the opinion of the respondents.

I don't recall ever hearing that other than on this forum, but I assume it's just another "we like our team" piece of nonsense. And as usual, when you judge things based on media soundbites, it gives a ridiculously inaccurate depiction of reality. In the last 6 seasons, we have had 15 different defensemen play at least 20 games for a total of 45 player-seasons. 16 of those 45 were players 25 or under. 855 of 2615 total games. Roughly one third of our defense roster over the last six years has been devoted to bringing in young players. 8 of the 15 played at least one year at 25 or younger. 6 at 23 or younger. Suggesting that kids aren't given legit opportunities is laughably false. The kids we've had just haven't been very good. Whine all you want about "tie goes to the vet", but the fact is neither Hicketts nor Sproul were anywhere close to a "tie" with any of our s***ty vets. One, that's not a middle ground. That's just saying the same thing while acknowledging that the kids have sucked. Two, your second question is demonstrably false (see above). The "veteran thing" is a fan thing, because the most popular player on a struggling team is the one who isn't playing. Funny you'd mention Ouellet. Several years later he still isn't as good as the several years older and worse version of Ericsson everyone wanted him to replace, and is now himself included as a "vet" that's holding back the kids.

I'd do it without hesitation. Doubt Carolina would though...

Tkachuk. Not a bad piece at 8 eh?

I'd love to see Vegas win the cup and put Canada in total TILT.

Yes, I think that trade would be accepted. Would I do it? IDK, that's one of those trades I'm glad I don't have to decide.

Yup. Tkachuk might be an NHL center, but my money's on him becoming a winger like his his older brother and performing more or less the same as his bro has. I'm thinking Veleno probably goes in the top 12. That said, I'd be thrilled if we could somehow trade up and get him with our second pick. Maybe an AA+ package gets us there? AA + Vegas's 1st + one of our 2nds? Does that get us a pick in the 9-12 range and, if so, would Veleno be worth it?

1. Calling the Rangers a better team to support your argument is pretty weak. They finished a whole 1 spot above Detroit in the east and also missed the playoffs easily. Detroit was 2-0-1 against the Rangers this season. The Rangers were 3-11-2 in games that Ryan Sproul played. Also, your statement that Sproul beat Daley in every statistical category per game is inaccurate. 1 goal in 16 games is not better than 9 in 77. 2. This statement is completely unsubstantiated. The team's performance for an entire season can't be blamed on one player (unless it's the goaltender, in some cases). 4. We already know what we have/had in XO, Sproul, and Jensen. XO is passably responsible, but has little offensive upside and is always the slowest skater on the ice....I'd just assume play Lashoff at this point - I think they have the same ceiling. Sproul is the defenseman equivalent of Tomas Jurco (a LGW super-hyped prospect that turned out to be a fringe-NHL player). The fact that he couldn't stick around here over XO speaks volumes about his time in the organization. Jensen I actually like, but I like him only if he is a bottom pairing or #7 defenseman on the team and continues to get paid essentially the league minimum...again, though, he's already shown what he is. I agree that it would've been nice to see more of Hicketts at the NHL level this season (since he's the only one of those you listed for which the team would need to figure out "what they have"), but for me that's as simple as waiving XO.

AA and Vegas' 1st might get a quality d-man.

Oh, I know. Just sayin'.

It's gonna be really interesting seeing how the second half of the 1st round and the first half of the 2nd round play out. Does a guy like Serron Noel go in the middle of the 1st? Near the end of the 1st? Does he slide into the 2nd? I honestly don't know. There's so much to like in the top two or three tiers of this draft class that it seems wide open once you get past the top 12 or so.

Don't forget Datsyuk.

I have negative zero interest in a multi-year deal. Next summer Holland will have the opportunity to walk away from Kronwall, Howard, Nyquist and maybe put that cap space towards signing one of the many high-end UFAs that could be available. No preemptive handcuffing plz. I think the best argument for bringing Green back on a one-year deal is that we could flip him at the deadline. But I imagine that's a big reason why he probably won't sign a one-year deal, certainly not one without trade protection. He'd have to be pretty desperate. Maybe the neck thing scares teams away, but I've gotta think someone's gonna offer him a pretty tasty deal. I just hope it's not Ken Holland.

He can walk away sure, but I’m referring to the fact that Holland said he was going to stop him from playing in the KHL had he left in 2014

________ - ________ - Mantha Athanasiou-Larkin-Frk Bertuzzi-Svechnikov-Rasmussen Helm-Glendening-Smith Turgeon/Holmstrom _______ - _______ Cholowski-Jensen Hronek-Sambrook Hicketts Petruzzelli Coreau Bottom line is the Red Wings need to start trading their bad contract players so spots can open up. Abdelkader, Nielsen, Nyquist, Ericsson, DeKeyser, and Howard all need to be gone. Ken Holland is no where near capable enough to make this happen, but we aren't getting better until it does. Take my line up there and throw in Kovalchuk, Tavares, Dahlin, and Karlsson. Rebuild Over!