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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Buppy is always trying to split hairs, and always thinks he's the smartest person in the room (he's not)...

I think Mantha is the better scorer. Most Wings fans would agree with that. Hell, I'm sure the coach agrees with that, which is why Mantha is constantly on the top line and Athanasiou is constantly on the 2nd / 3rd line.

I find myself agreeing with Buppy quite often lately.

The notion that Athanasiou is the better goal-scorer really isn't all that controversial. Mantha gets the top-line minutes because Blashill thinks Mantha's the better fit there. Is Bertuzzi a better scorer than AA? Nope, but we all seem to be ok with Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha being our top line going into Game 1 of the 2019-20 season. Because Bertuzzi, Larkin, and Mantha seem to work well together. AA's settling in as a guy who can break a game wide open on any given shift but isn't necessarily someone you can fully trust to play the big minutes against the other team's top players. I think Blashill sees him as someone who can potentially devour other teams' secondary and tertiary talent on a consistent basis. Mantha seems to be better suited for the truly heavy lifting.

The real tragedy here is that none of this really matters. Wanna put Athanasiou on the top line and Mantha on the second line? Cool, we're still in the same boat as a team and as an organization. We're a one-line team, and that one line isn't anything special. We have no depth at the NHL level.

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12 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I find myself agreeing with Buppy quite often lately.

The notion that Athanasiou is the better goal-scorer really isn't all that controversial. Mantha gets the top-line minutes because Blashill thinks Mantha's the better fit there. Is Bertuzzi a better scorer than AA? Nope, but we all seem to be ok with Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha being our top line going into Game 1 of the 2019-20 season. Because Bertuzzi, Larkin, and Mantha seem to work well together. AA's settling in as a guy who can break a game wide open on any given shift but isn't necessarily someone you can fully trust to play the big minutes against the other team's top players. I think Blashill sees him as someone who can potentially devour other teams' secondary and tertiary talent on a consistent basis. Mantha seems to be better suited for the truly heavy lifting.

The real tragedy here is that none of this really matters. Wanna put Athanasiou on the top line and Mantha on the second line? Cool, we're still in the same boat as a team and as an organization. We're a one-line team, and that one line isn't anything special. We have no depth at the NHL level.

Do you think the notion that Mantha is the better goal scorer to be controversial? Again, my initial point was that both are very good goal scorers, but I'd personally give the slight edge to Mantha. I know a LOT of other Wings fans would too. Of course there are fans that think Athanasiou is the better goal scorer, which is understandable since they are / have been that close their entire pro careers.

Buppy thinks it's crazy that Mantha could possibly be considered a slightly better goal scorer. He thinks the only reasonable way to quantify that is G/60, and quality of competition should be thrown out the window. It's dumb...

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33 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

he was

I agree, but most won't.  It's all opinion really. I happen to feel that in no world is Bertuzzi better than AA in the scoring role.  Two different players. But I like them all and hope they don't trade any of them.

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54 minutes ago, Dabura said:

...

The real tragedy here is that none of this really matters. Wanna put Athanasiou on the top line and Mantha on the second line? Cool, we're still in the same boat as a team and as an organization. We're a one-line team, and that one line isn't anything special. We have no depth at the NHL level.

totally agree, we definetly need a top six RW and our 2C (choose between Nielsen/Fil) is not really good enough, but it looks like we can only hope that a few of our prospects have a really good camp and preseason or Stevie strings a few unexpected trades together

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

I agree, but most won't.  It's all opinion really. I happen to feel that in no world is Bertuzzi better than AA in the scoring role.  Two different players. But I like them all and hope they don't trade any of them.

Bertuzzi and AA are just so completely different.

Bertuzzi's 200ft game and compete level are off the charts. He does a lot of little things right (intangibles). But he doesn't have nearly the raw skill level that AA does.

AA's intangible/compete/boardwork/defense or however you wanna frame it, is nowhere near Bertuzzi's. But AA can out of nowhere catch defenses with their pants down, and if you give him the opening he WILL score every time. He's speed and hands are probably the most exciting thing to watch on this team.

So I can see why you'd slot either on the 1st line for different reasons. But because Larkin and AA have a lot in common, and Mantha is sort of a big wimp, I think it makes sense to put a gritty type player like Bertuzzi next to those two.

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5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, okay. Quality of competition is not a stat at all... If I asked, which player is faster, Athanasiou or Mantha? Most people would say Athanasiou, would they not? But how do we know Athanasiou is faster when there's no stat for it???

What is Athanasiou's speed? Specifically, not just some vague and unsubstantiated "really fast" nonsense. Like how fast is he at top speed? And on an average shift? Then provide the same data for Mantha...

I don't know about you, but most people know Athanasiou is faster because we watch the games... Most people also know that Mantha plays against tougher competition most nights because we watch the games...

The Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi line and top lines in general get matched up against the opposition's best most nights. That's not exactly a secret. That then leaves Athanasiou playing against weaker competition. If you don't think quality of competition effects player output in any way, just because there's not a specific stat I can reference, this conversation is dumber than I thought...

Buppy is always trying to split hairs, and always thinks he's the smartest person in the room (he's not)...

I think Mantha is the better scorer. Most Wings fans would agree with that. Hell, I'm sure the coach agrees with that, which is why Mantha is constantly on the top line and Athanasiou is constantly on the 2nd / 3rd line.

He's fighting this as if I said Mantha is an elite goal scorer and Athanasiou sucks, when in reality I said that both are very good goal scorers (very comparable, capable of 30+ goals each), but I'd give the *slight* edge to Mantha.

It's easy to watch two cars and see which is moving faster. Little harder to watch a highway 82 times in a year and glean any useful information from your memory. And again, it's not just that we don't have a good measure of QoC, but that we also don't have a good idea of the impact. Same goes for QoT which you want to dismiss. The analytics crowd generally says QoC is mostly irrelevant.

From here:

Quote

Ultimately, the work that has gone into these models, as well as work independent of WAR models, seems to have come to a similar conclusions: Quality of Competition just isn’t that important. Or, to put it another way, it’s not that Quality of Competition doesn’t matter; it’s just that other factors matter a lot more.

It’s hard, however, to dismiss the eye test that suggests the opposite is the case. This seems to be a case of the micro versus the macro. On a micro level — looking at a single shift, a single game, or even a few games in a row — of course Quality of Competition matters. We can see it with our eyes and we can see it in the numbers.

On a macro level — over the course of a full season or across multiple seasons — the effects of Quality of Competition fade. It may be hard to pinpoint why, but that doesn’t change the data. Perhaps it’s because a coach can’t get those ideal matchups consistently over the course of an entire season. As much as a coach might want perfect line-matching at all times, that’s an impossible goal.

I'm debating this with the same intensity you are. You think Mantha is a better goal scorer, I think AA is. My argument is based on the data. Yours is based on fallacies, assumptions, and a love affair with Mantha over a thing he did a million years ago in JRs.

Mantha is a better player overall, mostly because he's a better playmaker but also better defensively, on the cycle, in the corners,, etc. I'd say Bert is probably better overall as well. But AA is currently our best goal scorer. It's close enough that Mantha (or Larkin) could move ahead of him, but as of now AA is on top. 

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5 minutes ago, Buppy said:

It's easy to watch two cars and see which is moving faster. Little harder to watch a highway 82 times in a year and glean any useful information from your memory. And again, it's not just that we don't have a good measure of QoC, but that we also don't have a good idea of the impact. Same goes for QoT which you want to dismiss. The analytics crowd generally says QoC is mostly irrelevant.

From here:

I'm debating this with the same intensity you are. You think Mantha is a better goal scorer, I think AA is. My argument is based on the data. Yours is based on fallacies, assumptions, and a love affair with Mantha over a thing he did a million years ago in JRs.

Mantha is a better player overall, mostly because he's a better playmaker but also better defensively, on the cycle, in the corners,, etc. I'd say Bert is probably better overall as well. But AA is currently our best goal scorer. It's close enough that Mantha (or Larkin) could move ahead of him, but as of now AA is on top. 

Fair enough. I still don't really agree, simply because I do believe QoC has a significant impact on production. I think it's kind of foolish to say it doesn't, but whatever.

I honestly have no idea where this Mantha "love affair" is coming from. I like him as much as any really good player that has ever played for the Red Wings. No more, no less. If people were always ragging on Larkin, or any other top player on the team, I'd defend them the same way I do Mantha.

Well at least we agree on the underlined.

As for the bold, this is why I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that any of the three are the better goal scorer.

It'll be interesting to see if either will be able to make some separation in the "best goal scorer" department this season...

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7 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Do you think the notion that Mantha is the better goal scorer to be controversial? Again, my initial point was that both are very good goal scorers, but I'd personally give the slight edge to Mantha. I know a LOT of other Wings fans would too. Of course there are fans that think Athanasiou is the better goal scorer, which is understandable since they are / have been that close their entire pro careers.

Buppy thinks it's crazy that Mantha could possibly be considered a slightly better goal scorer. He thinks the only reasonable way to quantify that is G/60, and quality of competition should be thrown out the window. It's dumb...

TBH, I kind of skimmed over most of the conversation. My bad.

Feels like Mantha and Athanasiou are the new Nyquist and Tatar.

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14 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

And there you have it. At least we can finally put the last 4 years of Trouba rumors to bed finally.

Who will be our new fantasy Dman now is the real question?

Krug?

As for Trouba...Gotta be a weird feeling that he's finally signed a contract that's worthwhile for both player, and team.

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3 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

He maybe should've seeked advice from Suter before letting "the lady" tell him where to play. Is what it is though. He's got some money and happy woman.

Happy pseudo wife happy life ...he got $$ kept his woman happy ...dude is in a near perfect place at this point....LOL

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31 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Krug?

As for Trouba...Gotta be a weird feeling that he's finally signed a contract that's worthwhile for both player, and team.

Thank you. Krug it is.

Used to watch him when he played for MSU, before the bottom fell out on that program.

Anyone from Livonia wanna confirm that he wants to come home to Detroit?

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Given that the Rangers now need to dump someone to be cap compliant if I were Yzerman I'd consider taking a look at Chris Kreider.  If he can be had at a reasonable price he'd be a good asset to move at the deadline next year.  He'd also slot in well opposite AA on the 2nd line for the season given he's fast and a good puck retrieval guy.  Would likely have to dump one of our lesser forwards in a trade/waive one/keep a kid down until the deadline but the return would be worth it. 

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On 7/17/2019 at 8:51 AM, Dabura said:

I find myself agreeing with Buppy quite often lately.

The notion that Athanasiou is the better goal-scorer really isn't all that controversial. Mantha gets the top-line minutes because Blashill thinks Mantha's the better fit there. Is Bertuzzi a better scorer than AA? Nope, but we all seem to be ok with Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha being our top line going into Game 1 of the 2019-20 season. Because Bertuzzi, Larkin, and Mantha seem to work well together. AA's settling in as a guy who can break a game wide open on any given shift but isn't necessarily someone you can fully trust to play the big minutes against the other team's top players. I think Blashill sees him as someone who can potentially devour other teams' secondary and tertiary talent on a consistent basis. Mantha seems to be better suited for the truly heavy lifting.

The real tragedy here is that none of this really matters. Wanna put Athanasiou on the top line and Mantha on the second line? Cool, we're still in the same boat as a team and as an organization. We're a one-line team, and that one line isn't anything special. We have no depth at the NHL level.

I got sad

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9 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Given that the Rangers now need to dump someone to be cap compliant if I were Yzerman I'd consider taking a look at Chris Kreider.  If he can be had at a reasonable price he'd be a good asset to move at the deadline next year.  He'd also slot in well opposite AA on the 2nd line for the season given he's fast and a good puck retrieval guy.  Would likely have to dump one of our lesser forwards in a trade/waive one/keep a kid down until the deadline but the return would be worth it. 

They'll probably buyout Shatty and Smith.  After the fact, I wouldn't mind giving Shatty a year contract, He, like most, went to NY and fizzled under the spotlight pressure, Trouba will do the same.  Shatty here would be top 4, if not top 2 and probably benefit from not being under the spotlight so much.

Kreider would be a nice little addition, but would we be on his 11 team list to where he won't accept a trade is the question there.

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However good or great Trouba is going to be, the price the Rangers have to pay for him is quite high. They still have 3 RFAs to sign and are already over the cap. So in the end the Rags didn´t only give a up a 1st + Pionk, they have to trade at least two good players, without any leverage because of the cap pressure, for cheap as well. I´m not sure that their team will be better after that...

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