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ogreslayer

2012 Lockout Watch

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Of course it is about timeline.

I can reasonably assume, NHL offer would be the same in January, can't I?

Then, instead of having 4-5 weeks to ping-pong offers, they would have 30+ weeks.

However, PA decided to play blitz.

The only way it's about the timeline is in that they're running out of time and using the deadline as leverage.

It doesn't matter if they started on January 1. If they're deadlocked 3 days from the deadline, what makes you think having 6 months would somehow help things?

It's all about playing chicken with the season to see who swerves first.

And your characterization of the PA playing blitz is inaccurate. It's not like they dropped a massive proposal on the NHL days before the deadline, and now Bettman and the owners are scrambling to make sense of it all.

Three days away and they don't even agree on the core issue. It's not the timeline.

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In reality, both sides are at fault, with the NHL being more at fault for being pricks than the NHLPA. In the end, neither are willing to budge from their positions. ...

Although, prick is not a term used in negotiation, I'd disagree NHL is more pricks.

I don't see any reasonable function of PA in todays world. Who is Don Fehr? Does he play professional hockey? Or does he run a bussness, or manage proffesional hockey organization?

Oh, yes he protects players rights as a group. Not to mentioned an army of agents and lawyers who are also protecting rights, our poor players are left unprotected. I'm crying...

Lets tell Parise hisf****** rights were brutally violated by Minissota Wild... And that poor guy Weber, he's left rotten under the sun by Nashvill Predators... I'm still crying...

Edited by ami
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Are you incapable of responding to people who disagree with you without changing their words and insulting them?

Though you seem unable to grasp the concept, there are more positions than:

1) agreeing with your "it's everybody's fault equally stance"

and

2) the union is absolutely perfect! This is completely 100% the leagues fault.

I never said that one side was doing everything in its power to make sure the season started. I never said one side is totally at fault.

One MAN is totally at fault here, this wouldn't be happening without him and it never would have happened before wothout him

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I have been speaking my mind.

You repeatedly misinterpret and misconstrue what I and others have said in this thread.

Based on your responses, you apparently can only understand that it is a completely 50/50 split or it is 100% the other sides fault. Anything in between gets lost on you.

I've highlighted your most recent overdramatizations.

Right now the ownership is the most glaring problem in the negotiations. I've already touched on some issues the union needs to move on. But those are more detailed points that the negotiations haven't even reached yet.

No offense, but by your comments and most others here, I hear zero harsh words when it comes to the NHLPA, but plenty to say when it comes to the NHL. Since you said you are speaking your mind, I would conclude that you are firmly behind the NHLPA, their stance on the economics of the NHL, and their proposals that they have put forward. You are right on one thing though, maybe I have been too harsh when it comes to the NHLPA fans in this thread. I have twisted your words around a couple times and for that I apologize. At the same time though, when I hear NHLPA fans such as yourself comment on how upset they are with the league, it is infuriating to not see what the NHLPA has been doing through this entire process. No flexibility? Waiting until the last minute to negotiate? No concessions at all? Not seeing the overall problem? These are just examples.

Fans who are backing the league or the NHLPA would be wise to look at the big picture.

In the end, there is nothing wrong with that. Public opinion through this entire process has been pro NHLPA and we the fans can do nothing even if we were for or against one side or the other. All we can do, as fans, is speak with our wallets.

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... what makes you think having 6 months would somehow help things?

Because I believe, eventually we going to see NHL season starts. It is a matter of time.

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Perhaps you should also do the same as you suggest. From all your comments here I would never in a million years have guessed you think the league is 60% to blame. From all of your comments, I would have guess you thought it was about 80-90% the players fault.

I suppose that is the overlying problem. The NHLPA apologists only hear one side of the story. Every comment I have levied at the league about a crappy proposal or being morons have been completely missed by you and other NHLPA fans here because they are right along the lines of what you believe. However, the instant I comment on the NHLPA and how they have done a sucky job, all of a sudden you and other NHLPA fans who have supposedly "read my posts" are all up in arms about how I am for the league and what they stand for.

This is common when it comes to other matters as well such as politics. Pick a side and read the news you only want to read because it falls in line with your belief system.

This isn't targeted at you directly, but to those who believe I am a fan of the league.

One MAN is totally at fault here, this wouldn't be happening without him and it never would have happened before wothout him

Thats the ticket!

This should be required reading for those who hate Bettman. The guy is slime, but he isn't the reason for the lockout. Blame all the owners.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/8365817/gary-bettman-leading-cba-talks-owners-direction

The only way it's about the timeline is in that they're running out of time and using the deadline as leverage.

It doesn't matter if they started on January 1. If they're deadlocked 3 days from the deadline, what makes you think having 6 months would somehow help things?

It's all about playing chicken with the season to see who swerves first.

And your characterization of the PA playing blitz is inaccurate. It's not like they dropped a massive proposal on the NHL days before the deadline, and now Bettman and the owners are scrambling to make sense of it all.

Three days away and they don't even agree on the core issue. It's not the timeline.

No offense, but only a fool would say that more time is bad when it comes to a negotiation. You are right, no one knows what would have happened, but when the league was ready to negotiate and the NHLPA didn't step up to the table, that went largely unnoticed. To not at least say that it was a bad move by the NHLPA to not start negotiating early and wait until June is telling.

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It seems you are a fan of the league to me because you have been cheerleading for the GMs while making suble digs at the players this whole thread. (very Bettman-esque of you)

And you have been going on about how it is EQUALLY 50/50 both sides fault (until your most recent 60/40 post) when in the current situation it is clearly, to anyone paying attention, more the fault of the GMs than the players. The players are not blameless here either, but it is blaringly obvious that more fault rests with the GMs than the players this time around.

Edited by sleepwalker

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No offense, but by your comments and most others here, I hear zero harsh words when it comes to the NHLPA, but plenty to say when it comes to the NHL. Since you said you are speaking your mind, I would conclude that you are firmly behind the NHLPA, their stance on the economics of the NHL, and their proposals that they have put forward. You are right on one thing though, maybe I have been too harsh when it comes to the NHLPA fans in this thread. I have twisted your words around a couple times and for that I apologize. At the same time though, when I hear NHLPA fans such as yourself comment on how upset they are with the league, it is infuriating to not see what the NHLPA has been doing through this entire process. No flexibility? Waiting until the last minute to negotiate? No concessions at all? Not seeing the overall problem? These are just examples.

Fans who are backing the league or the NHLPA would be wise to look at the big picture.

In the end, there is nothing wrong with that. Public opinion through this entire process has been pro NHLPA and we the fans can do nothing even if we were for or against one side or the other. All we can do, as fans, is speak with our wallets.

Boycott spending money on the NHL untill Bettman is fired for it

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No offense, but only a fool would say that more time is bad when it comes to a negotiation. You are right, no one knows what would have happened, but when the league was ready to negotiate and the NHLPA didn't step up to the table, that went largely unnoticed. To not at least say that it was a bad move by the NHLPA to not start negotiating early and wait until June is telling.

I pretty clearly spelled out why extra time doesn't matter. But I'll try and put it more simply. We're three days away and both sides are deadlocked. Yet you're saying starting 6 months earlier would've somehow helped? As if back then with little real threat of losing a season, they somehow would've started making concessions?

I didn't say it was a bad or good move. I'm saying it doesn't matter. Lack of time is not the issue.

And you say no offense, then call me a fool?

I'm tired of the insults built into your arguments and the constant misrepresentations of what I've said. Your mind seems made up and you're constantly responding to some idea of what you think I believe, instead of what I've actually stated I believe.

Carry on your merry way, but I'm done discussing this with you.

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I recall Bettman stalling negotiations too. He said something to the tune of, "We have a good end of the season going on, there is no reason to ruin that."

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According to McKenzie's twitter, the league is asking for "an immediate and significant reduction in the $ spent on players salaries" while the union "won't take an actual decrease to $ spent on salaries."

If true, that contradicts how Bettman made it sound in his press conference. The impression I got was that the league's latest offer would be a more stepped down reduction as revenue grew, so it wouldn't require a rollback. I know the initial deals it sounded like the league was trying to avoid calling it a rollback by referring to the escrow, but unless the NHL made massive revenue gains next season, the players would end up giving money back, which is essentially a rollback.

It's confusing without knowing all the details. How does the league expect to reduce the cap without a rollback? Why can't they be gradually stepped down? The players revenue percentage should come down and they absolutely need limits on contract length. I just don't see why easing the pain of that over a few seasons couldn't happen.

Either way, it sounds like Gary's getting his lockout hat trick.

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According to McKenzie's twitter, the league is asking for "an immediate and significant reduction in the $ spent on players salaries" while the union "won't take an actual decrease to $ spent on salaries."

If true, that contradicts how Bettman made it sound in his press conference. The impression I got was that the league's latest offer would be a more stepped down reduction as revenue grew, so it wouldn't require a rollback. I know the initial deals it sounded like the league was trying to avoid calling it a rollback by referring to the escrow, but unless the NHL made massive revenue gains next season, the players would end up giving money back, which is essentially a rollback.

It's confusing without knowing all the details. How does the league expect to reduce the cap without a rollback? Why can't they be gradually stepped down? The players revenue percentage should come down and they absolutely need limits on contract length. I just don't see why easing the pain of that over a few seasons couldn't happen.

Either way, it sounds like Gary's getting his lockout hat trick.

Only NHL hat trick we will see for a while

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The lockout will happen, to think that some earth shattering agreement could happen overnight is stupid.

The players think they hold the cards, the owners think they hold the cards... It's a stand of and the only way to solve it is months of negotiations and a far solution....

What sucks for us red wings fans is that this will probably mean a season opener of the winter classic. 05 they started the season on hype with the Crosby lottery... Now it will be the winter classic.... It hurts us cause we miss out on 24/7... But atleast we get half a season... And once again we get screwed... First the reallignment, now 24/7.... The players will back down and i respect them for that...

The league asked them to take a pay cut for the good of the league... "make less now to make more later" now that there making "more" they are being asked to cut salaries again... If that was my boss id tell him to screw off....

The lockout will happen, to think that some earth shattering agreement could happen overnight is stupid.

The players think they hold the cards, the owners think they hold the cards... It's a stand of and the only way to solve it is months of negotiations and a far solution....

What sucks for us red wings fans is that this will probably mean a season opener of the winter classic. 05 they started the season on hype with the Crosby lottery... Now it will be the winter classic.... It hurts us cause we miss out on 24/7... But atleast we get half a season... And once again we get screwed... First the reallignment, now 24/7.... The players will back down and i respect them for that...

The league asked them to take a pay cut for the good of the league... "make less now to make more later" now that there making "more" they are being asked to cut salaries again... If that was my boss id tell him to screw off....

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The NHL would never have had a lockout without Bettman and we are now going on the 3rd one with him.

I wasn't disagreeing about Bettman being bad for the NHL or even that he is a big part of why the lockout is coming. I was disagreeing about boycotting spending any money on the NHL.

If league revenues dropped for a season Bettman still wouldn't be fired. He is in place because as much as we hate him, the owners don't. If the owners get their way it will be because of his ultimatums and lockouts and then they'll have more money and love him even more.

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I wasn't disagreeing about Bettman being bad for the NHL or even that he is a big part of why the lockout is coming. I was disagreeing about boycotting spending any money on the NHL.

If league revenues dropped for a season Bettman still wouldn't be fired. He is in place because as much as we hate him, the owners don't. If the owners get their way it will be because of his ultimatums and lockouts and then they'll have more money and love him even more.

Some of the owners may like him because he has duped them into believing that his plan will benefit them but I think they must be getting tired of his plans not coming to fruition as he said they would. If the fans boycott spending on the NHL because of him, the owners that do like him won't when it causes a big affect on their pocket books.

I know Illitch always opposed him before he put a gag order on them

Edited by Johnz96

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I think the only way to get rid of Bettman is empty seats when the Lockout is over. I'm not buying tickets to protest Bettman, and I hope other hockey fans do the same thing. 4 lockouts under this moron, there's no reason to go to games until he's gone.

I have a feeling attendance for American teams will suffer. Canadian teams, they're all like sheep, the league could tell them to F-off, and they'd still buy tickets.

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I think the only way to get rid of Bettman is empty seats when the Lockout is over. I'm not buying tickets to protest Bettman, and I hope other hockey fans do the same thing. 4 lockouts under this moron, there's no reason to go to games until he's gone.

I have a feeling attendance for American teams will suffer. Canadian teams, they're all like sheep, the league could tell them to F-off, and they'd still buy tickets.

I've been trying to tell people this since the first lockout. Even without the lockouts he is the worst thing that has ever happened to the game of hockey. I haven't spent any of my money on the NHL since the first lockout and won't until he is gone. If more of us do it he will be gone

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I pretty clearly spelled out why extra time doesn't matter. But I'll try and put it more simply. We're three days away and both sides are deadlocked. Yet you're saying starting 6 months earlier would've somehow helped? As if back then with little real threat of losing a season, they somehow would've started making concessions?

I didn't say it was a bad or good move. I'm saying it doesn't matter. Lack of time is not the issue.

And you say no offense, then call me a fool?

I'm tired of the insults built into your arguments and the constant misrepresentations of what I've said. Your mind seems made up and you're constantly responding to some idea of what you think I believe, instead of what I've actually stated I believe.

Carry on your merry way, but I'm done discussing this with you.

The point is that we don't know what would have happened. To say that, well, since we are 3 days away and no concessions have been made to this point doesn't mean that it wouldn't have worked with more time is ludicrous. Just the fact that you won't call out the NHLPA for even their lack of desire to negotiate early speaks volumes. I think its pretty much a foregone conclusion that you are willing to blindly believe the NHLPA, even when shown that they haven't been as "on the ball" as you believe them to be.

I have to agree with you that maybe it is best that we don't carry on this discussion. We can carry on our merry ways.

Edited by Nightfall

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Hell no. Emmerton can wear #25 on a different team when we trade him away. 25 will ALWAYS be Darren McCarty.

I don't understand why everyone is blaming Bettman alone? Why this guy Don Fehr and his little brother are not to blame too? Is this because Bettman salary is two times greater than Fehr's.

NHL has been ready for negotiation long before New Year 2012, it's been said too many times. Fehr responded once saying talks will start sometime after All-Star break. Well he was right, talks started well after All-Star break.

It is clear that owners want to have more than 50% of revenues while players are not willing accept less than 50%. If positions cannot be reconciled it does not matter when you start negotiating.

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Its beyond me that someone would watch either of those press conferences and think that one side is doing everything in its power to make sure a season starts while the other is totally at fault in these negotiations. I suppose you have to have your lips firmly planted on the ass of the NHLPA to really come to that conclusion.

I think that making sure that seasons starts is not the main goal of either side. The goal is to make sure that over the lifetime of the next CBA it would be most beneficial to that particular side. From that point of view each side is just following their agenda. Fans and people whose paychecks depend on NHL games (apart from players) are interested in not losing any games but they are not part of the process.

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I haven't spent any of my money on the NHL since the first lockout and won't until he is gone. If more of us do it he will be gone

I always think that if you don't vote then you can't complain about whoever is in office...I'm gonna go with the same theory here and say that if we as fans don't support the league then we have no right to complain about what the league does.

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I think that making sure that seasons starts is not the main goal of either side. The goal is to make sure that over the lifetime of the next CBA it would be most beneficial to that particular side. From that point of view each side is just following their agenda. Fans and people whose paychecks depend on NHL games (apart from players) are interested in not losing any games but they are not part of the process.

Very true. Which is even more the reason why both sides are a fault. They are playing for themselves. Not for the good of the fans.

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I always think that if you don't vote then you can't complain about whoever is in office...I'm gonna go with the same theory here and say that if we as fans don't support the league then we have no right to complain about what the league does.

WTF???

Fans have been expressing hatred for the man ever since he has been in the League, Rather than booing him or holding signs or spouting off in some forum about him, he would have been long gone if only more fans did what I did. Hopefully they will after this lockout. I will support them as soon as he is gone, I can't wait to get a Konstantinov shirt

He is the worst thing to ever happen to the game of hockey and I will not support a league run by him

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