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ogreslayer

2012 Lockout Watch

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I guess that is a difference of opinion. Illitch is an outspoken guy. I believe he voted with every other owner to lockout the players. If he didn't like the situation, he would say something.

Illitch has plenty of reasons to vote lockout too. Make no mistake about it.

illitch?

He has never let money stand in the way of pursuing a Cup even if it meant a financial loss

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I think the only way to get rid of Bettman is empty seats when the Lockout is over. I'm not buying tickets to protest Bettman, and I hope other hockey fans do the same thing. 4 lockouts under this moron, there's no reason to go to games until he's gone.

I have a feeling attendance for American teams will suffer. Canadian teams, they're all like sheep, the league could tell them to F-off, and they'd still buy tickets.

I was planning on hitting a game or two this season, but I'll save the money. This is becoming a joke. Attendance will decrease. I hate to say it, but hopefully there are gobs of empty seats in Detroit when they start back up. Places like St. Louis were just getting their fanbase back, and now I doubt they'll be able to sell out ScottTrade after a month or two of no hockey. BankAtlantic Center in Miami will be totally empty, because there weren't great attendance numbers, anyway. Same goes for Jobing.com Arena in Phoenix. AAC in Dallas. Canadian cities and the Rangers will always sell out, regardless. Neither side benefits from a lockout. The NFL, NBA and MLB are loving it, however.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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I guess that is a difference of opinion. Illitch is an outspoken guy. I believe he voted with every other owner to lockout the players. If he didn't like the situation, he would say something.

Illitch has plenty of reasons to vote lockout too. Make no mistake about it.

Agreed.

This is the same Mike Ilitch - who for the past decade has bought up vacant lots/buildings behind the Fox Theatre so he can 1 day build a new arena - of course with the help of taxpayer $$$.

He is afterall - a businessman.

The NFL, NBA and MLB are loving it, however.

Another NHL work stoppage will only give the leagues you already mentioned, and their respective fan base more ammo to mock the NHL, the NHLPA, and us - the fans :confused:

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illitch?

He has never let money stand in the way of pursuing a Cup even if it meant a financial loss

I would bet that Illitch didn't lose money in 2002 when he loaded his roster up and had one of the highest payrolls. Course, I can't find a link that shows the finances of the Red Wings from one year to the next.

Edited by Nightfall

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Another NHL work stoppage will only give the leagues you already mentioned, and their respective fan base more ammo to mock the NHL, the NHLPA, and us - the fans :confused:

I know. The NHL really isn't even considered a "major" sport anymore. From what I've seen and heard, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NASCAR are all more popular than the NHL. Hell, NCAA football and basketball are right there with the NHL.

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It is tough to argue for the owners due to the horrible proposal they put forward. That being said, while the players proposal was a good start, the simple fact of the matter is that neither side is willing to budge off its original stance. In the world of negotiating, two wrongs don't make a right. Sure, its easy for you and many others here to point at the ownership and say they did wrong, because they did and are continuing to do so. At the same time though, the players have got to be willing to come off their original demands as well. Now, you and others here who are pro NHLPA can say that the players have done that, but all I have seen is their original proposal which was to lower their share to 53% in year 1, 55% in year 2, and then back up to 57% in year 3 with a player option at the same amount the next year.

Lack of flexibility, concession, and greed is what caused the strike. The owners feel like they are entitled to more. The players feel that they are entitled to more. The deal that is currently going on right now favors the players and lucrative franchises, but what I don't get is that every owner voted to strike? Are things really that bad in Hockeytown or Toronto? I know those are extreme examples, but I had to add that in there.

...

Details from the second proposal, per Lebrun.

FIRST THREE YEARS OF PROPOSED AGREEMENT

Total payroll is fixed at $1.91 billion in Year 1; $1.98 billion in Year 2; and $2.1 billion in Year 3. Effectively, they are 2 percent, 4 percent and 6 percent raises.

FINAL TWO YEARS

If revenue doesn’t adequately grow: NHL option to extend two more years at a payroll of $2.1 billion

If revenue skyrockets: NHLPA option to extend two more years at $2.1 billion, plus 57 percent of new revenue only in years 4 and 5

If revenue falls in between, deal automatically extended two more years, as follows:

Year 4 = Year 3 share plus 54 percent of hockey-related revenue growth in Year 4

Year 5 = Year 4 share plus 54 percent of hockey-related revenue growth in Year 5

The players' offer fluctuates based on revenue growth.

Example: Based on historical revenue growth of 7.1 percent a year, the players' share would start at 54.3 percent in Year 1 and phase down to 52.3 percent in Year 5.

No info on what constitutes "adequate" or "skyrockets", but either way they have in fact given up the 57% share. I trust you will now finally stop saying they're unwilling to give up anything.

A couple notes on the numbers:

Using the Forbes revenue figures for the first 6 years of the last CBA, and the oft-cited $3.3B figure for revenue last season, growth rate has been 6.5%. Projecting that forward, and assuming that would be "skyrocketing" revenue, I come up with the following percentages: 54.3, 52.9, 52.7, 52.9, and 53.2%. Projecting 7.1% growth going forward, I get: 54, 52.3, 51.8, 52.1, and 52.5%. Trying to reconcile the Forbes numbers to "Hockey Related Revenue", it comes out: 52.3, 50.6, 50.1, 50.5, and 50.8% of "actual" revenue.

So basically, the players are offering to cut their share by 4%, and very close to a 50/50 split of actual revenue. Cap numbers would be around $69, 71.3, 75.3, 80.3, and 85.5M. Interestingly, these numbers are probably less friendly to low revenue teams than what I was expecting to see. I was basing some of my projections off last season's cap number, but a closer look at the revenue numbers suggests that it was lower than it should have been, per the CBA. It should have been around $68M instead of $64.3. I'd still want some more recent revenue reports before I'll believe those numbers aren't workable, and I'd still be surprised if there are more than a handful of teams that would be unable to make the floor.

However, if there are as many as 9 teams who would struggle (it's possible), then I can see why there isn't a fair middle ground. The players shouldn't settle for anything significantly less than they are offering, so if the rich owners aren't willing to make up any difference needed by the poor ones, then the basic core structure needs to be changed. Either widen the gap between the floor and ceiling, or allow trading cap space for cash.

Edited by Buppy

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I would bet that Illitch didn't lose money in 2002 when he loaded his roster up and had one of the highest payrolls. Course, I can't find a link that shows the finances of the Red Wings from one year to the next.

http://www.forbes.co...roit-red-wings/

Lost $3.4M in 2001-02.

Of course, when you consider that he bought the team for $8M in 82, and it's now worth over $300M, it's hard to say he's ever lost anything. That's another factor to consider. Unlike a small business, a hockey team is a major asset that is likely to appreciate over time regardless of actual business performance.

I already know why Illitch voted yes.

Foolish owners signing players to long term deals they can't afford

Illitch has to pay out millions in revenue sharing to these owners who can't run their clubs in a financially sound manner

Players are getting paid too much

Contract length is too long

Illitch believes that the owners deserve more than 43% of the revenues of a $3.3 billion dollar industry

He may not be able to control the other owners, but he can control how much the owners get in their share of the pie. Illitch is a sound businessman, and if the other owners weren't idiots that didn't write checks their franchises couldn't cash, then he would probably be more forgiving.

I highly doubt Ilitch or any owner is thinking on those terms.

A businessman will be thinking risk-reward:

Likelihood the owners will "win", and money they will earn doing so weighed against the potential losses from locking out.

Apparently all the owners currently think the former outweighs the latter.

Edited by Buppy

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I feel a little uneasy in regards to how outspoken Zetterberg has been about all this, especially with his recent shot at Bettman.

All of a sudden Wings games have a referee rotation of only Dan O'Halloran, Denis LaRue and Brad Watson.

Then again I suppose Cheli has said worse.

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As a result of the lockouts under Bettman's reign, Wings fans have missed:

1994-95: 35 games for a 29 year old Yzerman, 24 year old Fedorov, 24 year old Lidstrom, and a 27 year old Konstantinov.

2004-05: 82 games for a 39 year old Yzerman, 34 year old Lidstrom, 36 year old Shanahan, 26 year old Pavel Datsyuk, 23 year old Zetterberg. Both Z and Dats led the Wings with 85 and 87 points when the league resumed games the next season. Shanny scored 40 goals and 81 points. Lids won the Norris.

2012-13: ??? games for a 34 year old Datsyuk, 31 year old Zettberg, 32 year old Franzen, 29 year old Jimmy Howard.

Over his 20 year career, Lidstrom missed only 46 games, including playoffs. Because of the lockouts under Bettman, Lidstrom missed an additional 117 games. Thankfully he decided to retire this year so we were saved the heartache of him deciding to come back for another season, only for there not to be a season.

Obviously these are only a few highlighted Wings players and don't even include potential playoff games in 05, but you get the idea. Careers are short, prime years even shorter. All the scoring records in the Bettman era should have an asterisk because of the games lost.

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I feel a little uneasy in regards to how outspoken Zetterberg has been about all this, especially with his recent shot at Bettman.

All of a sudden Wings games have a referee rotation of only Dan O'Halloran, Denis LaRue and Brad Watson.

Then again I suppose Cheli has said worse.

I think Bettman has a ref or 2 that help certain teams win or lose games. What other reason could there be for the Intent to Blow the Whistle rule. Funny thing about that rule anytime I have seen it called the replay showed that they ruled it wrong and goals there were disallowed, shouldn't have been and goals that were allowed, shouldn't have been

As a result of the lockouts under Bettman's reign, Wings fans have missed:

1994-95: 35 games for a 29 year old Yzerman, 24 year old Fedorov, 24 year old Lidstrom, and a 27 year old Konstantinov.

2004-05: 82 games for a 39 year old Yzerman, 34 year old Lidstrom, 36 year old Shanahan, 26 year old Pavel Datsyuk, 23 year old Zetterberg. Both Z and Dats led the Wings with 85 and 87 points when the league resumed games the next season. Shanny scored 40 goals and 81 points. Lids won the Norris.

2012-13: ??? games for a 34 year old Datsyuk, 31 year old Zettberg, 32 year old Franzen, 29 year old Jimmy Howard.

Over his 20 year career, Lidstrom missed only 46 games, including playoffs. Because of the lockouts under Bettman, Lidstrom missed an additional 117 games. Thankfully he decided to retire this year so we were saved the heartache of him deciding to come back for another season, only for there not to be a season.

Obviously these are only a few highlighted Wings players and don't even include potential playoff games in 05, but you get the idea. Careers are short, prime years even shorter. All the scoring records in the Bettman era should have an asterisk because of the games lost.

And because of the much bigger goalie equipment. Because of Bettman and his restricting skill and talent for the sake of parity to allow weaker teams a better chance of winning, major offensive records will never be broken and hockey is not as fun to play or watch as it could be.

I know. The NHL really isn't even considered a "major" sport anymore. From what I've seen and heard, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NASCAR are all more popular than the NHL. Hell, NCAA football and basketball are right there with the NHL.

NCAA football and basketball are much more popular then the NHL. I even hear that the WNBA has a bigger television audience

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Now that Carrie Underwood is a hockey wife, I think it behooves her to write sad, sappy, lamenting, wailing songs about how bad this is for the players, their families, the people who are employed by hockey, and the fans.

Then she needs to follow Bettman around singing them all non-stop until he cracks and signs whatever is put in front of him, preferably his own pink slip.

Heck, I'll sing backup vocals. Anything to speed this along.

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As a result of the lockouts under Bettman's reign, Wings fans have missed:

1994-95: 35 games for a 29 year old Yzerman, 24 year old Fedorov, 24 year old Lidstrom, and a 27 year old Konstantinov.

2004-05: 82 games for a 39 year old Yzerman, 34 year old Lidstrom, 36 year old Shanahan, 26 year old Pavel Datsyuk, 23 year old Zetterberg. Both Z and Dats led the Wings with 85 and 87 points when the league resumed games the next season. Shanny scored 40 goals and 81 points. Lids won the Norris.

2012-13: ??? games for a 34 year old Datsyuk, 31 year old Zettberg, 32 year old Franzen, 29 year old Jimmy Howard.

Over his 20 year career, Lidstrom missed only 46 games, including playoffs. Because of the lockouts under Bettman, Lidstrom missed an additional 117 games. Thankfully he decided to retire this year so we were saved the heartache of him deciding to come back for another season, only for there not to be a season.

Obviously these are only a few highlighted Wings players and don't even include potential playoff games in 05, but you get the idea. Careers are short, prime years even shorter. All the scoring records in the Bettman era should have an asterisk because of the games lost.

Then again, we came back in 95 winning the Western Conference, came back in 05 winning the presidents trophy with 58 wins.

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I am still a bit disappointed to see that Illitch voted yes. This was his chance to finally can this atrocious person and now they support him and his failed idea of expansion.

Having said that I fully understand, why players like Z, Crosby and Morrison are speaking up. For years the only thing they've heard how everything is fine, record after record and now all of a sudden things are bad and need to be fixed? Screw that and even knowing that they are willing to give and did put in a good proposal, yet the NHL didn't even look at it. I can understand when some guys or girls are saying both are to blame maybe, but the big junk of blame has to go to the owners here:

1. for keeping a failed dwarf

2. not seeing the big picture and the big picture is, that some teams can't even survive with revenue-sharing, because they are playing it cheap and using money from guys like Sneider, Mr. I and MLSE to give out ridiculous contracts.

Just contract the league by 4 to 5 teams, relocate some of the sunshine teams and you are going to end up with a healthier league, where we can finally get rid off the cap and have a luxury tax system, win win.

When was the last time we have seen an original 6 stanley cup final?! Right, not since a long long time but yet all these teams are the backbone of this league. The players know, they can't bulk this time because this would mean a serious damage to the NHLPA and shifting too much powers to the owners and that overpaid a**h***.

Personally I also can't stand the fact how both parties are always using MLB, NFL and NBA as example who cares what they are doing? This is hockey a differen t sport.

In a few hours we are all going to be very pissed and I for one hope the NHL won't recover from that, they need to learn a lesson.

Maybe the Perfect Human knew what was up and decided to hang em up, I feel sorry for Teemu too....The dwarf has cost us tons of games from allstar-players and sadfully the list is growing every year this guy is allowed to ru(i)n the league.

Edited by frankgrimes

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I think it just did.

Laughing out loud I think so too.

Wonder why NBC hasn't put some pressure into getting a FAIR deal done? They've paid the NHL millions of $ and yet they aren't getting anything out of it t his season.

Dabura likes this

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Laughing out loud I think so too.

Wonder why NBC hasn't put some pressure into getting a FAIR deal done? They've paid the NHL millions of $ and yet they aren't getting anything out of it t his season.

How does it work? Would every lost broadcast just be an unequivocal disaster (i.e. total loss, total waste of money) for NBC? Or is there some kind of, I dunno, escape clause or something?

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How does it work? Would every lost broadcast just be an unequivocal disaster (i.e. total loss, total waste of money) for NBC? Or is there some kind of, I dunno, escape clause or something?

Doesn't sound like there is, but I'm not sure.

Everything I've read makes it sound like the owners get paid $200 million from NBC even if there is no hockey.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/08/nhl_owners_will_receive_200_mi.html

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