[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

[kipwinger 8,520]

tsn guys talking about where talks go from here

No s***.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

No, I do understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is...if the owners said they would give 300 million in make whole, under the condition that the players accept the contracts length and cba length provisions, and the players did not accept those provisions, then you definitely pull the 300 million. The owners made one contingent on the other, and when that wasn't accepted, they pulled their offer.

I'm with you though, I don't care who's right, I want hockey. But when I see an offer that seems very fair to me, turned down because of something that almost all fans and owners want anyway (shorter contracts and longer cba), it's hard not to be pissed off at the union.

I agree with you, but I don't think throwing a temper tantrum and walking away was the right move, they should have said if you want 8 year deals and an 8 year cba then you get $240million on the make whole instead of 300

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

tsn guys talking about where talks go from here

Talk about cherry picking details.

I do agree with Dreger though that the players may have missed their best window. I hope Dreger is wrong about the hawks taking over on the league side.

More than anything I agree with Lebrun on how ridiculous it is that we're at this point on what should have been a relatively easy negotiation of splitting up such a massive increase in revenue.

[Nightfall 871]

I agree with you, but I don't think throwing a temper tantrum and walking away was the right move, they should have said if you want 8 year deals and an 8 year cba then you get $240million on the make whole instead of 300

Just for reference....David Backes and other players walked out of the meeting as well. So if you are going to demonize the owners for that behavior, you have to levy the same criticism to the players who disagreed and left too.

[kipwinger 8,520]

I agree with you, but I don't think throwing a temper tantrum and walking away was the right move, they should have said if you want 8 year deals and an 8 year cba then you get $240million on the make whole instead of 300

that's exactly what I asked you on the last page, whether you'd be ok with that. I'd be ok with that too. We agree, it just took us a minute.

[kipwinger 8,520]

Talk about cherry picking details.

I do agree with Dreger though that the players may have missed their best window. I hope Dreger is wrong about the hawks taking over on the league side.

More than anything I agree with Lebrun on how ridiculous it is that we're at this point on what should have been a relatively easy negotiation of splitting up such a massive increase in revenue.

I agree, I hope the union realizes that this might have been their best chance and figures something out. If not, then they've given all the hardline owners all the fuel they need to make this thing protracted. In which case we'll lose the season, and players will end up with a MUCH s***tier deal than the one the owners just proposed.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

that's exactly what I asked you on the last page, whether you'd be ok with that. I'd be ok with that too. We agree, it just took us a minute.

I don't think we ever really disagreed, we just misinterpreted what the other said

EDIT: or as the nhl/pa would say we were very close to a deal, but we differed on a few key issues which has caused us to break off talks for the next month

Edited December 7, 2012 by Euro_Twins

[RippedOnNitro 22]

So if I am correct, the deal was not finalized because of the 5-year (or 7-year in case of re-sign) limit on contracts? How many players actually have longer contracts then that? Maybe 2%???

Is this issue really so important for the PA that they are willing to lose the entire season for it? It seems the owners have no problem with that...

And why did Fehr did not put the latest offer to vote to the players? Then you will really know if the players find these contract limits a real issue.

I do not understand...

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Wow just wow, screw them:

The NHLPA made a great proposal and the blowfish group got greedy asking for even more, so in the end I'd say green light for decertification, teams like us will benefit heavily from that and no more bulls*** of growing the game.

Man if I were a player, after such pressers I'd be fully unloading on a certain guy.

Nobody is forcing the owners to hand out 8 year contracts, but they do provide safety for players and some are going to offer them.

Edited December 7, 2012 by frankgrimes

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Uncle Gary telling Donald Fehr how to negotiate. I laugh.

I haven't seen a head bob as much as Bettman's did at the podium since Muhammad Ali in his prime.

Uncle Gary is a putz.

[Nightfall 871]

This really is the most embarrassing negotiation session in the history of pro sports. Fehr and Bettman are out of the room, and progress is made. They come back in, and it all comes crashing down. Both these asshats need to be fired. There is no defending the NHL or NHLPA in these negotiations.

There is no defense for greed.

There is no defense for refusing to negotiate in good faith.

There is no defense for stall tactics

There is no defense for pontificating to the media after you don't get your way

There is no defense for leaving when your side doesn't get what they want

There is no defense for not taking calls from the other side, and there is no defense for leaving a voicemail message turning down a deal

Fans have to unite at this stage and be sure to speak with their wallets when the NHL does come back.

I am not spending any money on NHL tickets or merchandise for a long time. Both sides can go f*** themselves.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Nightfall

[drwscc 212]

Donald Fehr in a rare candid photo from his presser yesterday.

[rrasco 1,312]

You do come off it if you proposed it in a quid pro quo manner, as was made clear repeatedly by the ownership. You get 300 in exchange for 5 years contracts and a 10 year cba. It wasn't an open ended offer.

And that's the problem. The owners are making demands and throwing a fit if the PA didn't accept it. The PA should have just said, fine, we'll give you contract term and variance, we want our $389M in make-whole. Would that have been fair then?

[drwscc 212]

And that's the problem. The owners are making demands and throwing a fit if the PA didn't accept it. The PA should have just said, fine, we'll give you contract term and variance, we want our $389M in make-whole. Would that have been fair then?

That's the thing. At some point, there has to be a line where you say "This is as far as I can come," and that's what's happened here, per Daly, I believe.

Fehr is the one that blew things up this round. According to Adrian Dater, a player involved said that the players were ready to take the latest offer to a vote with all the players, and Fehr said not to, because they were going to get a better offer. I hope that that's true, but I am betting this pushed the more moderate owners into the hardline camp.

[rrasco 1,312]

That's the thing. At some point, there has to be a line where you say "This is as far as I can come," and that's what's happened here, per Daly, I believe.

Fehr is the one that blew things up this round. According to Adrian Dater, a player involved said that the players were ready to take the latest offer to a vote with all the players, and Fehr said not to, because they were going to get a better offer. I hope that that's true, but I am betting this pushed the more moderate owners into the hardline camp.

I did read that quote from an undisclosed player.

This came out this morning, so maybe that had something to do with?

Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland

Keep hearing players should be allowed to vote on deal....players tell me #NHL hasnt put formal proposal on table for them to even vote on

[vladdy16 2,154]

That's the thing. At some point, there has to be a line where you say "This is as far as I can come," and that's what's happened here, per Daly, I believe.

Fehr is the one that blew things up this round. According to Adrian Dater, a player involved said that the players were ready to take the latest offer to a vote with all the players, and Fehr said not to, because they were going to get a better offer. I hope that that's true, but I am betting this pushed the more moderate owners into the hardline camp.

Absolutely, but you have to inform them that this is the line. Players thought they were in negotiations, owners put out final offer. Major lack of communication there.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

According to Lebrun, it really did fall apart over max contract length (5 years NHL 8 NHLPA) and CBA length (10 years NHL 8 NHLPA).

Are you kidding me??

The owners see the 5 year contract length as a hill worth dying for, which is idiotic. Yes, contracts need to be shorter, but are you really willing to lose a season rather than agree on 6 years? Especially with the re-signing of free agents getting longer term. Throwing in a year would make the deal something the players need to absolutely accept. And they already have the 5% variance to eliminate back diving, which is much more important.

And as has been mentioned, I don't get why the 8 year CBA would be worth trashing a deal over on the NHLPA side. Bettman is only going to lock them out in 8 years anyway and the CBA will likely get worse for players no matter how the league recovers. Why not enjoy a decade of contract certainty?

Or as I mentioned before, there's this thing called 9, anyone heard of it? it's right between 8 and 10.

Unbelievable.

I don't think we ever really disagreed, we just misinterpreted what the other said

EDIT: or as the nhl/pa would say we were very close to a deal, but we differed on a few key issues which has caused us to break off talks for the next month

Exactly.

Enough with the tantrums on both sides. They're so friggin close. I don't get why Bettman is pretending they're not. And Fehr needs to knock of his passive aggressive crap.

Both sides needed to take a 30 minutes timeout so that their bottom lip stops quivering and they get rid of the sniffles, then get back in there and finish this deal like grown ass men.

[up2here 41]

According to Lebrun, it really did fall apart over max contract length (5 years NHL 8 NHLPA) and CBA length (10 years NHL 8 NHLPA).

Are you kidding me??

The owners see the 5 year contract length as a hill worth dying for, which is idiotic. Yes, contracts need to be shorter, but are you really willing to lose a season rather than agree on 6 years? Especially with the re-signing of free agents getting longer term. Throwing in a year would make the deal something the players need to absolutely accept. And they already have the 5% variance to eliminate back diving, which is much more important.

And as has been mentioned, I don't get why the 8 year CBA would be worth trashing a deal over on the NHLPA side. Bettman is only going to lock them out in 8 years anyway and the CBA will likely get worse for players no matter how the league recovers. Why not enjoy a decade of contract certainty?

Or as I mentioned before, there's this thing called 9, anyone heard of it? it's right between 8 and 10.

Unbelievable.

Exactly.

Enough with the tantrums on both sides. They're so friggin close. I don't get why Bettman is pretending they're not. And Fehr needs to knock of his passive aggressive crap.

Both sides needed to take a 30 minutes timeout so that their bottom lip stops quivering and they get rid of the sniffles, then get back in there and finish this deal like grown ass men.

I cant be a coincidence that negotiations were going well until Fehr and Bettman arrived yesterday. If you want to win fans back the 10 year cba is a damn good start.

[Guest irishock]

I just watched Fehr's press conference. That voicemail s*** is a bigger work than HBK's "I lost my smile" speech.

[Learn2LuvIt 245]

After reading/watching/following (twitter/facebook/etc...) everything that I possibly can get access to, I'm siding with the owners. I guess more specifically, I'm siding against the Fehr brothers. I think they are doing a disservice to the NHLPA by giving them a false sense of bargaining power in this negotiation. Although both sides can say what they want, I believe the owners compromised on a few of the NHLPA "top priority" issues that they previously had refused to, in an effort to display some good will toward the players and get a deal done. However, the owners did express that just as the players had "top priority issues", so did the owners. The owners compromised and I truly believe the Fehr brothers took this not as good will, but weakness on the part of the owners....which led to them cheer lead to the players that there is an even better deal to be had...."we've got em on the ropes boys!!"

These owners have put millions and billions of THEIR OWN MONEY into purchasing/maintaining their respective clubs. Huge money that was made in another industries. Do you think they are going to let the Fehr brothers "pull punches" in the waning hours when a deal was very likely headed to be signed?? I don't think Fehr have installed a true sense of reality into the players. It may and should be construed as fear. Fear of what?....Fear that they really are replaceable. Fear that, in reality, a lot of these players don't have a lot of attractive options beyond the NHL. You worked your whole life to play in the NHL and now....you play in AHL....you play in Europe? Second rate league, half way around the world from your home...with sub par accommodations (some say dangerous accommodations...look at just the travel accommodations alone and the tragedy of the plane crash that took our former coach BC and so many other players lives). A league that puts on average 1/2 of the people in the seats night after night. Fear that for a lot of these guys without hockey they'd be back working the family farm in Manitoba. How much does that pay??

So let's get real players. You are paid a huge salary under the last CBA and any future agreement. You are going to make a TON of money for playing a GAME. Mr. Player, what did you contribute to make the whole Detroit Red Wings enterprise work?? Your 3rd line play and constant injuries after being left for dead by the entire NHL and given one last chance with the Wings?? (sorry Dan Cleary, but your tweets and rhetoric have gotten under my skin). A big goal in a playoff game?? An NOW YOUR ENTITLED to the revenues and business compromising advantages of the entire business?? Get real. Players; we wear your jerseys and have unwavering support for you....and you can't even have our backs as fans? "Well look at how much money the owners are making....we want some of it for ourselves"....I say...GET REAL, WHAT OTHER BUSINESS LETS YOU LOOK AT THE BALANCE SHEET AND START MAKING DEMANDS OF YOUR OWNER ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT!! They paid hundreds of millions of their dollars to own the business and with that, the risk of owning and NHL team. They earned that right to run their business. You earn your right to wear the jersey (Winged Wheel) and you earn your right to more playing time and potentially a salary raise. You don't do anything but play hockey and know nothing to very little about running a business. So Dan Cleary....go back to Newfoundland and earn your living back there...go play in Europe year after year if you don't like it...maybe try real estate. I realize that might screw up your 3 golf rounds a week at Oakland HIlls (true), but hey, we should be falling all over you right....YOUR DAN CLEARY!!!

A bit aggravated this morning. As a fan who loves this game and have supported this game and players for 35 years...players need to fire Fehr and start making rational/reality for themselves. Decisions for the fairness of yourselves as millionaires playing a game, and for the fans who you all claim you "can't thank enough" (excerpt from any player interview regarding the fans).

Edited December 7, 2012 by Learn2LuvIt

[amato 3,210]

According to Lebrun, it really did fall apart over max contract length (5 years NHL 8 NHLPA) and CBA length (10 years NHL 8 NHLPA).

That is absolutely sickening.. as if either of those things are really that big of a deal??

[kipwinger 8,520]

Absolutely, but you have to inform them that this is the line. Players thought they were in negotiations, owners put out final offer. Major lack of communication there.

Don't go making excuses for the players, both Daly and Bettman expressly stated that the 300 million in make whole was contingent upon either accepting or rejecting the contract and cba lengths. They didn't accept. The owners walked. It's not like they didn't know, Fehr thought he smelled blood and over played his hand. Don't go making it seem as if they players had no idea that one was contingent on the other, they did.

[rrasco 1,312]

After reading/watching/following (twitter/facebook/etc...) everything that I possibly can get access to, I'm siding with the owners.

Not saying the Fehr's are not driving the bus the wrong way down the interstate, but AFAIK this is no longer about money. It's about contracting rights.

[vladdy16 2,154]

Don't go making excuses for the players, both Daly and Bettman expressly stated that the 300 million in make whole was contingent upon either accepting or rejecting the contract and cba lengths. They didn't accept. The owners walked. It's not like they didn't know, Fehr thought he smelled blood and over played his hand. Don't go making it seem as if they players had no idea that one was contingent on the other, they did.

Whoa, calm down. I'm not making anybody out to be a bad guy here. I have no idea who's more to blame at this point. And I also stated it was a lack of communication, not intentional.

Everything I've read has stated that players were unaware it was take it or leave it at that point.

[chances14 227]

Nobody is forcing the owners to hand out 8 year contracts, but they do provide safety for players and some are going to offer them.

yes in theory nobody is forcing the owners to hand out 8 yr contracts, just like in theory nobody is forcing the players to accept them. but once one owner steps out of line and offers a long term contract, the market value is set. if the owners had a gentleman's agreement to not offer a certain length contract, it could be considered collusion and grounds for legal action. that is what a cba is for.

That's the thing. At some point, there has to be a line where you say "This is as far as I can come," and that's what's happened here, per Daly, I believe.

Fehr is the one that blew things up this round. According to Adrian Dater, a player involved said that the players were ready to take the latest offer to a vote with all the players, and Fehr said not to, because they were going to get a better offer. I hope that that's true, but I am betting this pushed the more moderate owners into the hardline camp.

i strongly believe that fehr has brainwashed these players into thinking that the longer they hold off, the better the deal. they are going to be sorely mistaken.

I did read that quote from an undisclosed player.

This came out this morning, so maybe that had something to do with?

they still could have done an unofficial vote on the owner's proposal, even if it wasn't an official proposal.

According to Lebrun, it really did fall apart over max contract length (5 years NHL 8 NHLPA) and CBA length (10 years NHL 8 NHLPA).

Are you kidding me??

The owners see the 5 year contract length as a hill worth dying for, which is idiotic. Yes, contracts need to be shorter, but are you really willing to lose a season rather than agree on 6 years? Especially with the re-signing of free agents getting longer term. Throwing in a year would make the deal something the players need to absolutely accept. And they already have the 5% variance to eliminate back diving, which is much more important.

And as has been mentioned, I don't get why the 8 year CBA would be worth trashing a deal over on the NHLPA side. Bettman is only going to lock them out in 8 years anyway and the CBA will likely get worse for players no matter how the league recovers. Why not enjoy a decade of contract certainty?

Or as I mentioned before, there's this thing called 9, anyone heard of it? it's right between 8 and 10.

Unbelievable.

i think it's ridiculous for both sides to be arguing contract term lengths. and both sides should want the longest cba possible. it's ridiculous that a deal is being held up over these petty issues

I just watched Fehr's press conference. That voicemail s*** is a bigger work than HBK's "I lost my smile" speech.

maybe if fehr wasn't so busy telling the media that the lockout was essentially over, he wouldn't have missed the nhl's call

Don't go making excuses for the players, both Daly and Bettman expressly stated that the 300 million in make whole was contingent upon either accepting or rejecting the contract and cba lengths. They didn't accept. The owners walked. It's not like they didn't know, Fehr thought he smelled blood and over played his hand. Don't go making it seem as if they players had no idea that one was contingent on the other, they did.

agreed.

while i disagree with the owner's take it or leave it approach, fehr purposely misled the public. he knew full well that the league wasn't going to accept his proposal.

Edited December 7, 2012 by chances14