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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#361 Nightfall

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:20 PM

The difference here is that the starting point (expiring CBA) was 57%. Owners came in with a new offer of 43%. If the NHLPA were to take the same approach, they should have started at 71%, but their initial offer was already a move towards what the owners want.

I agree. At the same time though, we are not back in June negotiating. Fehr didn't go down that road and I am happy he didn't. Where we are now is both sides are willing to work towards the middle As I said before, if the rumors are true and the NHL came up 5% over where they started, and Fehr did come down about 5%, that puts them well within range to make a deal. So why don't both sides just get it done?
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#362 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:28 PM

Jokes about the value of people with MBA's are not just jokes.

#363 Nightfall

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:33 PM

Bettman and the owners are trying to renege on contracts they signed and offered the players in the first place and are locking them (and us) out to do so. If they don't want to pay the players as much they shouldn't offer as much in the first place. It's as simple as that.
The CBA has expired 3x during Bettman's tenure as commissioner of the NHL and he has locked us out every time. He uses it as a negotiating tactic.
The players can't just let Bettman lock them (and us) out every time the CBA expires to get what he wants.
And to all those that say Bettman only works for the owners and does what he wants

He didn't do it on his own, but it sure wasn't the players pulling the trigger on the league's god awful business decisions (overzealous expansion, failure to admit mistakes, failure to properly vet prospective owners, over-sized goalie equipment, crappy television contracts, league scheduling, instigator rule, lockouts every time the CBA expires, etc.).
The owners deserve plenty of the blame for the current mess, but Bettman was hired to manage and run the league. Like shareholders of a corporation, the owners don't really run the league. They may own it, but they have delegated most of their managerial rights to Bettman. In fact Bettman has a severely punishable gag order placed on them. Bettman does make decisions, and these decisions do in fact have consequences.

I agree with you to an extent. Bettman and the owners really have dug themselves a deep hole here. At the same time, there has to be some unity or cooperation between the NHLPA and the NHL. The NFL, MLB, and NBA leagues and the players associations in those leagues all work together when expanding or moving a franchise. In the NHL, there is a disconnect. Is that Bettman's fault? Is that Goodenow's fault? Is that Fehr's fault? Maybe it is the fault of both sides? I really don't know. All I do know is that without this level of cooperation and unity, the league is going to suffer.

The leagues missteps are well documented, but how about the NHLPA waiting until June to negotiate when the league asked them to come to the table in January? I know, fans of the NHLPA will look at that as no problem since no deal has been made yet, but I see it as a lack of respect or cooperation at least. I could name other issues here, but I won't go into detail. The point is that we need unity between the NHLPA and the NHL. Maybe Bettman is the problem. Maybe its time to ditch him and get another leader for the league and that will improve things. Maybe its a culture change as a whole for both sides. Something does need to be done though.

Jokes about the value of people with MBA's are not just jokes.

Especially if you don't have one.
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#364 sleepwalker

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:45 PM

Let's keep the discussion here about the negotiations without making it personal. Otherwise there will be edits/deletions/suspensions.

Thanks.


It certainly says something that the people here that are supporting the owners in this for the most part can't seem to put together a valid argument, so they just toss around insults and personal attacks instead to try to obfuscate the fact that the side they are arguing for really doesn't have a leg to stand on.

#365 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:51 PM

The leagues missteps are well documented, but how about the NHLPA waiting until June to negotiate when the league asked them to come to the table in January? I know, fans of the NHLPA will look at that as no problem since no deal has been made yet, but I see it as a lack of respect or cooperation at least. I could name other issues here, but I won't go into detail. The point is that we need unity between the NHLPA and the NHL. Maybe Bettman is the problem. Maybe its time to ditch him and get another leader for the league and that will improve things. Maybe its a culture change as a whole for both sides. Something does need to be done though.


The goal of each side is to get the best deal for their side. All the talk about partnership is just that - talk. When it comes to money players and owners are not friends. So if NHL was indeed ready to start negotiating in January then my guess would be that NHLPA thought that it was not in their best interest to do so.

Also the fact that Bettman is still the commissioner is clearly not NHLPA's fault and there is not much they can do about it.

#366 Nightfall

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:02 PM

The goal of each side is to get the best deal for their side. All the talk about partnership is just that - talk. When it comes to money players and owners are not friends. So if NHL was indeed ready to start negotiating in January then my guess would be that NHLPA thought that it was not in their best interest to do so.

Also the fact that Bettman is still the commissioner is clearly not NHLPA's fault and there is not much they can do about it.

So if it isn't in their best interest to do so, and that decision results in the league locking them out, isn't that a problem?

This last CBA has benefited the players and the rich franchises the most. Of course the side that was benefiting the most was not motivated to negotiate. That happened in the NBA and a lockout was the result last season. Wiped out all games until December. MLB has had the longest labor unity of all the professional sports because of the unity between the players and the league officials. Yes, money is important, but so is labor peace.

It certainly says something that the people here that are supporting the owners in this for the most part can't seem to put together a valid argument, so they just toss around insults and personal attacks instead to try to obfuscate the fact that the side they are arguing for really doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I could say the same thing for people who are in 100% support of either side. There is plenty of blame to go around here.
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#367 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:14 PM

So if it isn't in their best interest to do so, and that decision results in the league locking them out, isn't that a problem?


I do not know what NHLPA's plan is. They certainly knew that lockout was a possibility. But if we assume that NHLPA is approaching negotiations rationally then apparently they think they can get a better deal even having to go through lockout. Will their plan work out? I haven't got a clue. In the end they might just lose money for missed games and not get a better deal anyway. But it is player's prerogative to do what they think is best for them. Owners are doing the same thing.

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#368 frankgrimes

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:21 PM

Well yes I side with the players but not 100 %. The only people I am behind so much are the guys and gals whos income depends on hockey you know scouts, equipment managers, bar owners, DJ's and facility managers.

I mean if both sides would give 5 % and come together on some small issues such as not capping contract length this lockout could be over soon. Having said that if 5 % still aren't good enough for the midget then he needs to be fired as soon as possible.

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#369 Nightfall

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:28 PM

I do not know what NHLPA's plan is. They certainly knew that lockout was a possibility. But if we assume that NHLPA is approaching negotiations rationally then apparently they think they can get a better deal even having to go through lockout. Will their plan work out? I haven't got a clue. In the end they might just lose money for missed games and not get a better deal anyway. But it is player's prerogative to do what they think is best for them. Owners are doing the same thing.

I agree. The point is that neither side can claim that they did everything they could to avoid a lockout. I understand everyone loathing Bettman. I think the ownership would do better with someone else at the helm. That being said, when I look at the big picture, I just don't understand how anyone can side the the NHLPA 100% either. I am about 60% on their side in this right now, but I can't ignore the missteps they have taken through this process.
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#370 sleepwalker

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:07 PM

I could say the same thing for people who are in 100% support of either side. There is plenty of blame to go around here.


I doubt there is many people that think one side is 100% to blame.

As an aside, I think one of the main things you can blame on the players in this lockout was having some sort of idealistic delusions of how negotiating goes, especially with the NHL. When the owners came to the table with the ridiculous and insulting lowball opening offer, what the players should have done, and what pretty much anyone else would have done, is come back with an equally insulting high ball openeing offer, like an 80/20 split, no cap, no contract lengths. Only then can you come to a meaningful compromise and meet in the middle.

#371 Nightfall

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:14 PM

I doubt there is many people that think one side is 100% to blame.

I really don't think that is accurate. I really do believe that people who voice against one side and only one side are pretty much 100% with that side. Sure, I hear some of these people say that they put blame on the other side as well, but when questioned about the opposite sides actions in some respects, they are quick to defend their side.

As an aside, I think one of the main things you can blame on the players in this lockout was having some sort of idealistic delusions of how negotiating goes, especially with the NHL. When the owners came to the table with the ridiculous and insulting lowball opening offer, what the players should have done, and what pretty much anyone else would have done, is come back with an equally insulting high ball openeing offer, like an 80/20 split, no cap, no contract lengths. Only then can you come to a meaningful compromise and meet in the middle.

I agree! I would not have put it past Fehr to do that, and I would have supported him for it.
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#372 rrasco

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:30 PM

I still don't believe the NHL was willing to negotiate in January until I see some evidence of it. I'm not saying the PA was, but I specifically remember the league NOT being ready until after the season was over.

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#373 Nightfall

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:11 PM

I still don't believe the NHL was willing to negotiate in January until I see some evidence of it. I'm not saying the PA was, but I specifically remember the league NOT being ready until after the season was over.

I already posted a link that showed that the league requested for negotiations to start in January. I also remember ESPN stating that the league was ready to negotiate in January. I don't know how true that was, as it could have been posturing by the league. Still, in most rational people, it would explain why the league waited until July to get together.

Here is another by TSN.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=386328

"My guess is, at least informally, we'll have some discussions in the not-too-distant future," Bettman said Saturday after the NHL's board of governors meeting. "I'm not prepared to say when the formal negotiations will begin. That's a call we've pretty left to the Players' Association. We're ready, and have been ready. But the union has had some work to do.


Edited by Nightfall, 30 September 2012 - 07:12 PM.

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#374 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:24 PM

Here's what Uncle Gary had to say about to start of negotiations back in January.

From Toronto Star:

“I hate to sound like a broken record, but we need some movement on the economic issues. We need some movement on the system issues,” NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said. “We need them to be scheduled as the subject of a meeting, and right now the union is not prepared to do that.”


Edited by cusimano_brothers, 30 September 2012 - 07:27 PM.

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#375 Barrie

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:01 PM

“I hate to sound like a broken record, but we need some movement on the economic issues. We need some movement on the system issues,” NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said. “We need them to be scheduled as the subject of a meeting, and right now the union is not prepared to do that.”


Of course they aren't prepared to do that in January, they're in the middle of the season! They're playing games! Typical Bettman and Daly, trying to pass the blame to the players even more. Nothing's ever their fault, it's always someone else.
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#376 Johnz96

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:08 PM

I agree with you to an extent. Bettman and the owners really have dug themselves a deep hole here. At the same time, there has to be some unity or cooperation between the NHLPA and the NHL. The NFL, MLB, and NBA leagues and the players associations in those leagues all work together when expanding or moving a franchise. In the NHL, there is a disconnect. Is that Bettman's fault? Is that Goodenow's fault? Is that Fehr's fault? Maybe it is the fault of both sides? I really don't know. All I do know is that without this level of cooperation and unity, the league is going to suffer.

The leagues missteps are well documented, but how about the NHLPA waiting until June to negotiate when the league asked them to come to the table in January? I know, fans of the NHLPA will look at that as no problem since no deal has been made yet, but I see it as a lack of respect or cooperation at least. I could name other issues here, but I won't go into detail. The point is that we need unity between the NHLPA and the NHL. Maybe Bettman is the problem. Maybe its time to ditch him and get another leader for the league and that will improve things. Maybe its a culture change as a whole for both sides. Something does need to be done though.


Especially if you don't have one.

In January the players were too busy working on making the playoffs to negotiate.

#377 Johnz96

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:14 PM

Yeah! Let's take the advice of an internet warrior rather than teams of people with MBA's and extensive knowledge of the league, TV contracts, and business.

frankgrimes says your team is unsustainable, Mr. Yzerman, so you're fired so Moosejaw Saskatchewan can have an NHL team.

How do you know that frankgrimes doesn't have an MBA?
Here is someone who does
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#378 kylee

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:18 PM

Still have not discussed core HRR issues. I want to be optimistic, but if all they're going to do is talk about player safety and health insurance for players this might be a very long lock out

#379 Nightfall

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:32 PM

Of course they aren't prepared to do that in January, they're in the middle of the season! They're playing games! Typical Bettman and Daly, trying to pass the blame to the players even more. Nothing's ever their fault, it's always someone else.

I suppose thats one way to look at it.
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#380 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:17 AM

It's the only way to look at it.
Is Sochi 2014 being discussed, or is that going to be a separate circus?
Uncle Gary sez: you get the Olympics, we get a bigger percentage.
I can smell it coming.

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