haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 So Jimmy was .09 SV% and .18 GAA away from being a Hart trophy candidate? That's pretty damn close to elite is it not? Howard has proven to play at a top 5 goalie level for an entire season. There are not many goalies I'd take over him, and even fewer when you know Howard's not going to be paid like a top 5 goalie. Sure, in a universe where they determine the Hart trophy candidates by looking at a single statistic without taking into consideration how they actually played the games and what they meant to their team through a course of a season, I guess you could say Howard would be .09 SV% away. I was basing my opinion on having watched a ton of Kings games the last few years along with Wings games. All I said was Quick has played at a level Howard hasn't yet. It's not really that outrageous of a statement, especially considering all the positive things I've said about Jimmy. It remains to be seen if Quick himself will even be able to maintain that level of play long term. Jimmy is very good, not elite. And that's probably great for the Wings. There are very few elite goalies out there and it takes a ton of cap space to keep them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shoobiedoobin 138 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 (edited) Sure, in a universe where they determine the Hart trophy candidates by looking at a single statistic without taking into consideration how they actually played the games and what they meant to their team through a course of a season, I guess you could say Howard would be .09 SV% away. How do we know they vote by watching them? Because I think it's more, a certain few people forming opinions and everyone else following. It's just not possible to watch every candidate in every game. Unless you don't do anything else in a day and you're a machine who doesn't need sleep you just can't watch every single candidate. I don't take awards all that seriously. It's a guide but sometimes more deserving guys don't win. Voters presumably watch every playoff game or close enough and still sometimes screw up the Smythe, how would they know in regards to full-on 82 game season awards? Edited February 7, 2013 by shoobiedoobin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoalieManPat 1,007 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 This team has 15 other problems before you could even think of listing Howard as one of them. Most fans just see a goal being scored and are to stupid to realize how the goal was scored. They just see it go past the goalie and automatically blame the goalie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 How do we know they vote by watching them? Because I think it's more, a certain few people forming opinions and everyone else following. It's just not possible to watch every candidate in every game. Unless you don't do anything else in a day and you're a machine who doesn't need sleep you just can't watch every single candidate. I don't take awards all that seriously. It's a guide but sometimes more deserving guys don't win. Voters presumably watch every playoff game or close enough and still sometimes screw up the Smythe, how would they know in regards to full-on 82 game season awards? wow you guys will debate anything. Instead of getting side tracked in a fictional Hart Trophy debate, I'd like to get back to my original points. All I said was Quick has played at a level Jimmy hasn't yet. That's my opinion based on having watch them both play a lot the last few seasons. Second, as I said earlier, of the problems this Red Wings team has, Howard is not at or anywhere near the top of that list. Lastly, I think Jimmy is a very good goaltender and it's probably an advantage of the Wings to be able to sign him at a "very good" and not "elite" rate, especially with the cap getting cranked down again. Very few of those goaltenders turn out to be worth the money. I think Howard is more than good enough to win a Cup with the right team in front of him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
e_prime 1,936 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 wow you guys will debate anything. Instead of getting side tracked in a fictional Hart Trophy debate, I'd like to get back to my original points. All I said was Quick has played at a level Jimmy hasn't yet. That's my opinion based on having watch them both play a lot the last few seasons. Second, as I said earlier, of the problems this Red Wings team has, Howard is not at or anywhere near the top of that list. Lastly, I think Jimmy is a very good goaltender and it's probably an advantage of the Wings to be able to sign him at a "very good" and not "elite" rate, especially with the cap getting cranked down again. Very few of those goaltenders turn out to be worth the money. I think Howard is more than good enough to win a Cup with the right team in front of him. So, what does that number look like to you? In dollars, I'm thinking in the Anderson/Halak/Schneider ballpark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shoobiedoobin 138 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 (edited) wow you guys will debate anything. Instead of getting side tracked in a fictional Hart Trophy debate, I'd like to get back to my original points. All I said was Quick has played at a level Jimmy hasn't yet. That's my opinion based on having watch them both play a lot the last few seasons. Second, as I said earlier, of the problems this Red Wings team has, Howard is not at or anywhere near the top of that list. Lastly, I think Jimmy is a very good goaltender and it's probably an advantage of the Wings to be able to sign him at a "very good" and not "elite" rate, especially with the cap getting cranked down again. Very few of those goaltenders turn out to be worth the money. I think Howard is more than good enough to win a Cup with the right team in front of him. How is it debating? It's a question. Quick has gotten overrated in a big hurry. I don't think he's done anything Jimmy couldn't with some help from his team. Honestly both teams being equal, I'd rather have Jimmy. Edited February 7, 2013 by shoobiedoobin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrimsonFlame 424 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 How is it debating? It's a question. Quick has gotten overrated in a big hurry. I don't think he's done anything Jimmy couldn't with some help from his team. Honestly both teams being equal, I'd rather have Jimmy. Quick is better than Howard. A lot better. It's not even close. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shoobiedoobin 138 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 (edited) Quick is better than Howard. A lot better. It's not even close. Bulls***. "It's not even close" is code for "Quick has his name engraved in something so we're not allowed to say Jimmy's better". Edited February 7, 2013 by shoobiedoobin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrimsonFlame 424 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 Bulls***. "It's not even close" is code for "Quick has his name engraved in something so we're not allowed to say Jimmy's better". No it's that Quick is hands down a much better goalie. You wouldn't find a single person outside of Detroit who would think Howard is better than Quick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 So, what does that number look like to you? In dollars, I'm thinking in the Anderson/Halak/Schneider ballpark. Honestly I'm pretty terrible at predicting contract amounts. Especially given the new CBA, it'll be interesting to see what that does to the free agent market. Given the new rules if they sign him long term Jimmy's first few years may be at low value, then jump up significantly. Because I think on the front end you can make 100% leaps up in value, it's only the back end that is subject to the variance rule. Plus the lower first few years can help avoid escrow payments as the dollar amount of the cap (ideally) increases each year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shoobiedoobin 138 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 No it's that Quick is hands down a much better goalie. You wouldn't find a single person outside of Detroit who would think Howard is better than Quick. Group opinion isn't very relevant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrimsonFlame 424 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 Group opinion isn't very relevant. No but it's more accurate since it would eliminate bias if we factor in every fan base. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 Back on to the discussion I agree with you Harold on pretty much everything, Howard isn't at Quick's level in my opinion, but he's not far off. Before the all star break I feel Howard was playing at this level that Quick was playing at, now Quick stayed there longer and through the playoffs which gives him a big edge. But the difference in the two will easily be negated by his contract, and that's the main point I was trying to get. Howard won't be making close to 6 million like Quick, and it's not like the age difference is that great either, 2 years. I just don't see how Howard is average, in any sense of the word. And I don't know what goalies are "elite", and how do you get there. And then how would we go about and get this elite goalie that will be a Hasek incarnate and be able to win Vezina's behind terrible teams(something that I believe doesn't exist right now in the NHL). And that was my other point, I just don't see how there are 15 goalies better than Howard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shoobiedoobin 138 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 (edited) I'm not speaking for the fan base. I'm just speaking for myself. 1:1 I think Jimmy's better. Not by a lot but still. The only real difference is the team in front of them. I saw those late season LA games where Quick "stole" them and while he looked good it was very much the same type of theft that occurred in the postseason, only with his offense showing up. His defense was solid as a rock in those games. Edited February 7, 2013 by shoobiedoobin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,485 Report post Posted February 7, 2013 not going to debate about this, but I will post some evidence of how much "better" Quick is Career stats; Quick : 2.31 gaa .916 sv% playoffs 2.12 gaa .926 sv% (before the 2011/2012 playoffs his gaa was 3.33 and sv% was .899 in the playoffs) Howard 2.44 gaa .916 sv% playoffs 2.63 gaa .915 sv% Quick doesn't appear TO ME to be "so much better" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BuckeyeWingsfan80 209 Report post Posted February 8, 2013 Howard would start for at least 25 other teams. Get a grip. 2 Hockeymom1960 and evilmrt reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dobbles 252 Report post Posted February 8, 2013 why is it people always try to compare every goalie to quick now? 15 months ago, quick was still looking over his shoulder at bernier. he had a great year last year and a great playoff run, but its not like he has been a top goalie for a decade or anything... 1 solid season does not make an 'elite' goalie... jimmy howard is extremely underrated by most wings fans. he isn't perfect, but he has made the team a lot better than it would have been with someone else. the wings defense has been crap for 2-3 seasons now and even nick was fairly badin his own zone at the end. everyone has been guilty of poor defensive play. the sheer number of odd man chances the wings give up compared to 5 or 10 years ago is embarrassing. 1 Hockeymom1960 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilmrt 636 Report post Posted February 8, 2013 Lock this retarded thread. 7 St. Michael (the Red Wing), Nev, 13dangledangle and 4 others reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Axe Report post Posted February 8, 2013 Howard's days are numbered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dobbles 252 Report post Posted February 9, 2013 Howard's days are numbered. wish we could say the same for you here.... 4 evilzyme, Serratoni, BuckeyeWingsfan80 and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amato 3,210 Report post Posted February 10, 2013 Jimmy looks petty damn elite today.. "Average" is wayy under rating him. He's been great all season long. 1 13dangledangle reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shoobiedoobin 138 Report post Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) Jimmy could stop a million shots, look like Dominik Sawchuk McCujo and some people would not give up their stubborn opinion that he's average. It's pretty obvious to everyone but them that it's just an emotional reaction to seeing one goal they don't think he should've given up, stuff like that. It's ridiculous. You could take a game where he stops 28 of 30, looks amazing, and if we lose 2-1 he's average and if we win 3-2 he's amazing. Same game, different opinion on our goalie based on goals against the other team. That's the difference between Howard and Quick. Nothin' but the team in front of them. When you support a team you usually react emotionally and knee jerk opinions are formed. Edited February 10, 2013 by shoobiedoobin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Johnz96 Report post Posted February 10, 2013 Howard is above average. Mraz is elite Jimmy could stop a million shots, look like Dominik Sawchuk McCujo and some people would not give up their stubborn opinion that he's average. It's pretty obvious to everyone but them that it's just an emotional reaction to seeing one goal they don't think he should've given up, stuff like that. It's ridiculous. You could take a game where he stops 28 of 30, looks amazing, and if we lose 2-1 he's average and if we win 3-2 he's amazing. Same game, different opinion on our goalie based on goals against the other team. That's the difference between Howard and Quick. Nothin' but the team in front of them. When you support a team you usually react emotionally and knee jerk opinions are formed. The team in front of Howard is better than the one in front of Quick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amato 3,210 Report post Posted February 10, 2013 Call me crazy but I'd call 37 saves on 38 shots thru two periods an elite performance.. 4 Barrie, 13dangledangle, evilzyme and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jesusberg 1,256 Report post Posted February 10, 2013 I'd hate to see the score of this game if he was a below average goalie. Thank god for average Howie. 1 Motown4013 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
