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Guest The Axe

Howard = Average

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Nobody is questioning Howard's personality. I love the fact that he's a gamer and never creates a problem. I just dont think he's a great goalie. I think he's good, but that we can do better.

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IMO, there is an intersting trend with the "great goalies" in the NHL. We look at Bryz in Phoenix when he was a vezina candidate, Mike Smith in Phoenix, Ryan Miller in Buffalo, even Craig Anderson when he was in Colorado and these goalies are on teams who get out shot most games because their team just isn't that good. They are constantly getting peppered with shot and have to make 40 saves a game. They are good goalies, but their stats get inflated because of the number of shots they see. Its noticeable that goalies who get a lot of shots per might, and are constantly getting action, are better throughout the game.

Bryz left Phoenix to a better team getting less shots a night, he struggled. Brian Elliot joined the best defensive team in the league and became an all star. Craig Anderson left Colorado and sucked it up his first year in Ottawa.

IMO, it shows that it is harder to make saves when you have to sit at your end for most of the period with no action. Chris Osgood and Jimmy Howard have done this quite well. They have the mental toughness to be prepared with for the occasional chance. Luongo struggled big time with this in Vancouver. He is a great talent but he was mentally weak.

That is why Jimmy is great. He learned mental toughness from Chris Osgood, and Jimmy is more talented than Osgood. Its more than just raw skill. Jimmy has great talent, great size, elite competitiveness, and an elite mentality.

Edited by cupforwings

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He also has to be his own enforcer as the wings never stAnd up for for him.

Ive never played goal and cant pretend to understand the mental side of it but knowing you may get run every rush cant help your game and he still gives us a chance every night . Top 10 for sure!

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I've always been of the opinion that you do not pay any goalie more than 5m per season. I don't care if it's Henrik Lundqvist or Patrick Rinne, no goaltender is worth that in a capped league. The biggest reason for this is the uncertainty of the position, when your big money goalie has a bad night they can cost you a game, when your big money forward or defensemen has a bad night it may result in a minus or zero points, but a loss isn't always the worst case scenario.

In the case of Jimmy Howard, I think he's a really good goalie, I think he's a homegrown talent and we can win with him. But the problem is if he asks for more than 4m/season the best thing to do would be to let him walk. There's too many decent goalies available to wrap that much cap space into that position.

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When you think about how many good goalies were in the league at once in the 90's.....

Hasek, Roy, Barasso, Vernon, Richter, Brodeur, Joseph, Belfour, Vanbiesbrouck, Ranford, Fuhr, Potvin, etc.

Now we still have Brodeur along with Quick and Lundqvist, but after that, who on the lists in this thread are actually better than Howard seeing as Howard is every bit as good as Price? Howard may not be elite according to the history of the game, but in the league right now, he's between 5 and 7.

I agree, there isn't to many big game goalies now. Good ones, but not ones you can call big game or elite. Maybe it has to do with the Cap. With the talent spread around it probably effects the quality of goaltending.

He also has to be his own enforcer as the wings never stAnd up for for him.

Ive never played goal and cant pretend to understand the mental side of it but knowing you may get run every rush cant help your game and he still gives us a chance every night . Top 10 for sure!

This year's team can stand up for him.

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I've always been of the opinion that you do not pay any goalie more than 5m per season. I don't care if it's Henrik Lundqvist or Patrick Rinne, no goaltender is worth that in a capped league. The biggest reason for this is the uncertainty of the position, when your big money goalie has a bad night they can cost you a game, when your big money forward or defensemen has a bad night it may result in a minus or zero points, but a loss isn't always the worst case scenario.

In the case of Jimmy Howard, I think he's a really good goalie, I think he's a homegrown talent and we can win with him. But the problem is if he asks for more than 4m/season the best thing to do would be to let him walk. There's too many decent goalies available to wrap that much cap space into that position.

Pekka Rinne*

I beg to differ, there may be decent goalies out there like Monster you can grab for around 2mil/season. The problem with that is now you let a great goalie walk, and you suddenly have to score an extra 2 goals a night to get the win, decent goalie = 3 gaa. Howie is a 2gaa typpe goalie, pay him 5mil if thats the proverbial hill he'll die on (thanks for that quote bettman :P)

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detroit can win a cup with jimmy in net

I dont think this is true

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I dont think this is true

Antii Niemi is much, much worse than Jimmy Howard. It's debatable but I'd also take Jimmy over Cam Ward, MA Fleury and JS Giguere. Not 2003 Giguere (which is still overrated) but the 07 Giguere who just wore oversized equipment and played "hope it hit's me" butterfly style without ever extending his arms or legs. I've seen glaciers move faster than him.

The whole "can a goalie win a cup" thing is just storytelling sensationalism to me. No goalie wins one by themselves. If you're good enough to carry a team for a little awhile, you're good enough to win a championship if your team helps you out. There are plenty of goalies capable of winning championships if the team does their part. It really is a team game. I've watched a lot of hockey for a long many years and I've only seen two goalies truly carry piss poor teams to the finals-The Beezer in 96 and Hasek in 99. Neither won. Just like some teams have gone down because their goalie let in softies. It's not possible at all to win without a full team effort. And Jimmy isn't one of those guys who we groan about because he gives up softies, he's shown he can do his share. You gotta think-if the team in front of him does enough, would Jimmy piss it away? I have a hard time believing that even at my most pessimistic.

Edited by shoobiedoobin

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If we had a stacked defense like '97 yeah.

Exactly. I dont think Jimmy is the problem. I dont think the team is or will be good enough.

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Jimmy could stop a million shots, look like Dominik Sawchuk McCujo and some people would not give up their stubborn opinion that he's average. It's pretty obvious to everyone but them that it's just an emotional reaction to seeing one goal they don't think he should've given up, stuff like that. It's ridiculous. You could take a game where he stops 28 of 30, looks amazing, and if we lose 2-1 he's average and if we win 3-2 he's amazing. Same game, different opinion on our goalie based on goals against the other team. That's the difference between Howard and Quick. Nothin' but the team in front of them.

When you support a team you usually react emotionally and knee jerk opinions are formed.

A lot of the same people said the same crap over and over again about Ozzy and now they likely love him. It's just morons being keyboard heroes on the interwebz....

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People who say Howard is not an elite goaltender must have never played a single shift of hockey in their lives. The way he cuts down the angles on breakaways and shootouts. The way he has progressed tremendously from two years ago. The way he slides from side to side on 2-on-1s. With our suspect defense and power play, Howard keeps us in the game every game.

amato and evilzyme like this

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People who say Howard is not an elite goaltender must have never played a single shift of hockey in their lives. The way he cuts down the angles on breakaways and shootouts. The way he has progressed tremendously from two years ago. The way he slides from side to side on 2-on-1s. With our suspect defense and power play, Howard keeps us in the game every game.

He single handedly lost us that game. 3 soft goals. Did not make saves when necessary. Howard is an average goalie who plays well once every 5 to 6 starts. Its that simple.

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He single handedly lost us that game. 3 soft goals. Did not make saves when necessary. Howard is an average goalie who plays well once every 5 to 6 starts. Its that simple.

He should have shot the puck at the net from the other end of the rink because nobody else on the team seemed to be able to.

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In the game I was watching, he had plenty of help in losing this game.

Wings didnt play well, but a good goalie wins that game for us.

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Wings didnt play well, but a good goalie wins that game for us.

So does a better D, or more digging in and creating offensive opportunities by our forwards. You can't cherry pick who needs to be better. Yes, Howie let in some soft goals. But there are a myriad of other ways this team could have won this particular game. Howie has bailed this team out at times, the shirts in front of him need to be able to do the same. There's enough blame to go around.

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While I believe Howard is way above average, I also believe M-Raz is and will be better. In two years, I believe M-Raz will be starting and Howard may not even be around...nothing personal, just business.

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So does a better D, or more digging in and creating offensive opportunities by our forwards. You can't cherry pick who needs to be better. Yes, Howie let in some soft goals. But there are a myriad of other ways this team could have won this particular game. Howie has bailed this team out at times, the shirts in front of him need to be able to do the same. There's enough blame to go around.

I will agree with you. Win and lose as a team. But we would win more with a better goalie.

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And if Babcock would play M-Raz more, say every third or fourth game, maybe Jimmy would feel motivated to play better. He sure stood on his head after the kid came in and played as well as he did. I could say I'd like to see that same effort from him every time he's in net, but again, I go back to the fact that he's not the only one who phones it in at times. I don't think there's one particular solution, but rather a lot of things that need to be tweaked. It's doable, but...

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And if Babcock would play M-Raz more, say every third or fourth game, maybe Jimmy would feel motivated to play better. He sure stood on his head after the kid came in and played as well as he did. I could say I'd like to see that same effort from him every time he's in net, but again, I go back to the fact that he's not the only one who phones it in at times. I don't think there's one particular solution, but rather a lot of things that need to be tweaked. It's doable, but...

Agreed. The Wings are more than an elite goalie away from being an elite team.

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IMO, there is an intersting trend with the "great goalies" in the NHL. We look at Bryz in Phoenix when he was a vezina candidate, Mike Smith in Phoenix, Ryan Miller in Buffalo, even Craig Anderson when he was in Colorado and these goalies are on teams who get out shot most games because their team just isn't that good. They are constantly getting peppered with shot and have to make 40 saves a game. They are good goalies, but their stats get inflated because of the number of shots they see. Its noticeable that goalies who get a lot of shots per might, and are constantly getting action, are better throughout the game.

Bryz left Phoenix to a better team getting less shots a night, he struggled. Brian Elliot joined the best defensive team in the league and became an all star. Craig Anderson left Colorado and sucked it up his first year in Ottawa.

IMO, it shows that it is harder to make saves when you have to sit at your end for most of the period with no action. Chris Osgood and Jimmy Howard have done this quite well. They have the mental toughness to be prepared with for the occasional chance. Luongo struggled big time with this in Vancouver. He is a great talent but he was mentally weak.

That is why Jimmy is great. He learned mental toughness from Chris Osgood, and Jimmy is more talented than Osgood. Its more than just raw skill. Jimmy has great talent, great size, elite competitiveness, and an elite mentality.

Ask anyone who has played the position, they all prefer to get peppered with shots. It's far easier to keep your head and body in the game when you're working and moving. There is nothing worse than standing around and getting cold.

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Ask anyone who has played the position, they all prefer to get peppered with shots. It's far easier to keep your head and body in the game when you're working and moving. There is nothing worse than standing around and getting cold.

Exactly, people don't take this into account, or don't realize this, but it is so true. The fact that Howie plays as well as he does on nights where he stands around and barely sees any pucks is amazing on it's own

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Axe you also continued to rail this team saying we were pretty much doomed to fail this season and Holland would get what's coming to him at the end of the year because of our miserable performance... As we sit in a playoff spot. Now that it appears you are wrong about that so far, it's time to start stabbing elsewhere, in this case, Howard. And of course it's followed by another new thread by you self assuring yourself that you have to get some point across to drag this team down further. I'm really starting to question whether or not you are a Wings fan or a fan of another team incognito.

Howard is fine, more importantly, WE HAVE A WINNING RECORD. Only Yankees and Flyers fans should have room to complain considering the season that's been put forth so far, but we aren't those kinds of fans. Is it that hard to sit back, appreciate the fact that we have hockey back and we are playing a hell of a lot better than most people anticipated?

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