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Guest The Axe

Howard = Average

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People who say Howard is not an elite goaltender must have never played a single shift of hockey in their lives. The way he cuts down the angles on breakaways and shootouts. The way he has progressed tremendously from two years ago. The way he slides from side to side on 2-on-1s. With our suspect defense and power play, Howard keeps us in the game every game.

While I think Howard is so far above average, the logic above is faulty. One need not play hockey to understand it. Many sports broadcasters and writers haven't played, yet they are paid for their knowledge and commentary. Many astronomers have never been to outerspace. The possible examples are endless.

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I am not blaming Howard for anything. Im saying he's average.

You've said he's average. You've said he's good but not elite. Which one is it? Stick to a story.

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In 10 games, we are halfway. Howard will be under 500 by then.

And guess what, when the season is over he'll have played less than 40 games, which is half a full season. Are we supposed to conclude that he's average because he played like an average goalie with Kronwall and a bunch of AHL-calibre defensemen and on top of that, in an unfriendly lockout-shortened season?

Edited by irishock

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EVERYONE here who IS a Red Wings fan who has seen Jimmy Howard play at an "elite" level knows this thread = retarded

I saw that ONE game this year.

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May as well lock this ridiculous crap. It's not about opinion or unbiased debate anymore, it's officially turned into a contest.

until this site decides to crack down on people who are obviously trolls, all threads devolve into this. i don't care if this gets me in trouble for saying this, but this site has turned into a garbage heap of terrible posters. i know sites have to try and be open to anyone, but it makes for a terrible environment for honest and genuine discussion. the day that matt instructs to moderators to crack down on trolling will be the day that lgw takes 50 steps forward as a hockey board.

as far as the thread is concerned, i will reiterate that howard is a well above average goalie. 'elite' is such a loaded term these days in all sports. but jimmy is one of the better goalies in the league, and one of the most valuable and skilled players on our team.

the defense is atrocious this season and has been for several years. do we have anyone that would be considered a shut down defenseman? have we for a few years? even lidstrom wasn't the best in his own end the last couple seasons. stuart was a strong shut down guy for yeasr, but seemed to be mentally checked out last year so even that didnt help.

Nightfall likes this

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will be the day that lgw takes 50 steps forward as a hockey board.

Like HFBoards?

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Axe, just stop. You look fanatical. See what I mean about this becoming a contest? You're spinning any possible thing into a negative against Howard and pitifully attempting to downplay anything in his favor. Everyone can clearly see you have no clue what you're talking about.

You're a politician. And if I was a mod I'd delete my own post, because that to me is a hell of an insult.

MabusIncarnate likes this

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until this site decides to crack down on people who are obviously trolls, all threads devolve into this. i don't care if this gets me in trouble for saying this, but this site has turned into a garbage heap of terrible posters. i know sites have to try and be open to anyone, but it makes for a terrible environment for honest and genuine discussion. the day that matt instructs to moderators to crack down on trolling will be the day that lgw takes 50 steps forward as a hockey board.

as far as the thread is concerned, i will reiterate that howard is a well above average goalie. 'elite' is such a loaded term these days in all sports. but jimmy is one of the better goalies in the league, and one of the most valuable and skilled players on our team.

the defense is atrocious this season and has been for several years. do we have anyone that would be considered a shut down defenseman? have we for a few years? even lidstrom wasn't the best in his own end the last couple seasons. stuart was a strong shut down guy for yeasr, but seemed to be mentally checked out last year so even that didnt help.

I agree 100% with this. Although I will say that I find more intellectually stimulating conversation on the HFBoards at times, but I still believe this is the best place for all Wings talk. You are always going to have crap posters and trolls no matter where you go.

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Axe, just stop. You look fanatical. See what I mean about this becoming a contest? You're spinning any possible thing into a negative against Howard and pitifully attempting to downplay anything in his favor. Everyone can clearly see you have no clue what you're talking about.

You're a politician. And if I was a mod I'd delete my own post, because that to me is a hell of an insult.

Back up your opinions with stats and I will listen. Dont complain about my opinion.

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dog-digging-a-hole1-279x200.jpg

Keep diggin that hole.

More non fact based whining. A 3.00 goals against is not great.

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I post facts that you ignore. This is gonna be my last post in this thread because it's like trying to hammer a toothpick into a steel door.

09-10

37 wins 15 losses 2.26 GAA = excellent/elite

10-11

37 wins 17 losses 2.79 GAA = excellent

11-12

35 wins 17 losses 2.12 GAA = excellent/elite

12-13

Too early to determine.

Howard = way above average. I'm done here.

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until this site decides to crack down on people who are obviously trolls, all threads devolve into this. i don't care if this gets me in trouble for saying this, but this site has turned into a garbage heap of terrible posters. i know sites have to try and be open to anyone, but it makes for a terrible environment for honest and genuine discussion. the day that matt instructs to moderators to crack down on trolling will be the day that lgw takes 50 steps forward as a hockey board.

as far as the thread is concerned, i will reiterate that howard is a well above average goalie. 'elite' is such a loaded term these days in all sports. but jimmy is one of the better goalies in the league, and one of the most valuable and skilled players on our team.

the defense is atrocious this season and has been for several years. do we have anyone that would be considered a shut down defenseman? have we for a few years? even lidstrom wasn't the best in his own end the last couple seasons. stuart was a strong shut down guy for yeasr, but seemed to be mentally checked out last year so even that didnt help.

Define trolling. I understand your POV completely, but the day we start deleting threads because we don't consider them discussion-worthy is the day we get crap for being fascists and violating free speech. It's a no-win situation for the powers that be. It would be VERY helpful for others to start what they consider more appropriate topics and refrain from posting in those that don't interest them; the thread will die a natural death. (Please respond via PMs! Thanks)

Now, to discuss the de-evolution of this thread. It has jumped the shark. If if doesn't improve promptly, it will be deleted.

dobbles likes this

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I post facts that you ignore. This is gonna be my last post in this thread because it's like trying to hammer a toothpick into a steel door.

09-10

37 wins 15 losses 2.26 GAA = excellent/elite

10-11

37 wins 17 losses 2.79 GAA = excellent

11-12

35 wins 17 losses 2.12 GAA = excellent/elite

12-13

Too early to determine.

Howard = way above average. I'm done here.

Alright! Now we can discuss. He's got an awesome record so far in his young career. I contend that's a byproduct of Lidstrom and great team defense. And I think I will be proven right when "too early to tell" becomes a full season. We will see.

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Define trolling. I understand your POV completely, but the day we start deleting threads because we don't consider them discussion-worthy is the day we get crap for being fascists and violating free speech. It's a no-win situation for the powers that be. It would be VERY helpful for others to start what they consider more appropriate topics and refrain from posting in those that don't interest them; the thread will die a natural death. (Please respond via PMs! Thanks)

Now, to discuss the de-evolution of this thread. It has jumped the shark. If if doesn't improve promptly, it will be deleted.

i will pm you with some thoughts specifically, but did want to publically thank you for your response.

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Define trolling. I understand your POV completely, but the day we start deleting threads because we don't consider them discussion-worthy is the day we get crap for being fascists and violating free speech. It's a no-win situation for the powers that be. It would be VERY helpful for others to start what they consider more appropriate topics and refrain from posting in those that don't interest them; the thread will die a natural death. (Please respond via PMs! Thanks)

Now, to discuss the de-evolution of this thread. It has jumped the shark. If if doesn't improve promptly, it will be deleted.

At the risk of dragging this further off topic, the bolded section is the key.

The site is only as good as the content you guys provide. Generating better threads and ignoring ones you don't like is a much better solution than us mods having to weigh in on what consitutes "thread worthy" when the thread isn't technically violating any forum rules.

Now back to beating that dead horse...

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At the risk of dragging this further off topic, the bolded section is the key.

The site is only as good as the content you guys provide. Generating better threads and ignoring ones you don't like is a much better solution than us mods having to weigh in on what consitutes "thread worthy" when the thread isn't technically violating any forum rules.

Now back to beating that dead horse...

Thank you.

There are a lot of points to discuss here. Its discouraging to see people not add anything positive, because I think you can make a great case for Howard being above average.

Upcoming Olympic selection

Regular season success and stats in previous years

Workhorse/Injury Proof

No off-ice or on-ice problems.

In his prime.

Etc.

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Alright! Now we can discuss. He's got an awesome record so far in his young career. I contend that's a byproduct of Lidstrom and great team defense. And I think I will be proven right when "too early to tell" becomes a full season. We will see.

Even if it is, it's one season compared to 3. Was Roy bad because he had a 3.20 GAA and .890 SV% in 92-93? Lots of goalies have bad streches. And even more goalies have bad stretches playing behind bad defensive teams.

All the evidence points to this being a bad stretch, on top of playing behind a terrible defensive team.

Facts are even if Howard isn't elite, there isn't a goalie available, that could put up elite numbers behind this team, I'd argue there isn't a goalie in today's game that could put up elite numbers behind the defense the Wings are playing right now. Turnovers leading to odd man rushes is some of the worst I've seen. There is only so much a goalie can do in those situations.

I don't see the problem with the thread, I'm just amused that it's gone on for so long when all the facts point to Howard and the team needs to play better. And that's all it really comes down to, because Howard's proven to be a top goalie.

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Goalies are always hard to judge correctly. If they have a great D in front of them, the D gets the credit. if it is a bad D, the G sucks. This is universal. Some remember Fuhr back in the day. was a great G but his GAA was high because the Oilers played a run and gun sttyle of play. they gave up a lot of golas, but scored even more.

Goalies are also prone to huge swings in their numbers year to year. Most HOF G's have this problem as well.

Of all the issues with the RW's this year, Howard isn't one of them, other than the fact he isn't resigned yet. We have to resign him. there is nothing out there better via UFA. The other option would be to trade for a G (again who is better? Are they aavailable?) What would we give up? if we have assets to trade, wouldn't we be better of using said assets on some NHL caliber F's and Dmen?

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Why? Its a very relevant point. Why dont you prove it wrong instead of griping?

Axe you ignore facts, I have pointed out Howie's numbers the past three seasons several times. People Have mentioned how crappy our defense is and how good Howie has actually been playing, sure he's let in a couple softies, but he has given us every opportunity to win every night. Howie caan't stop every breakaway, 2 on 1, shorthanded opportunities and so on that come every single game. Not even Brodeur in his prime would be able to keep this team winning. You need to stop looking simply at numbers and start looking at what's happening on the ice, Rinne, Lundquist, Miller, Brodeur, Rask, Quick, and Price would all do just as bad on our team. You found one of the few bright spots on our team and made a thread trying to discredit that bright spot, congratulations, you're a tool

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Axe you ignore facts, I have pointed out Howie's numbers the past three seasons several times. People Have mentioned how crappy our defense is and how good Howie has actually been playing, sure he's let in a couple softies, but he has given us every opportunity to win every night. Howie caan't stop every breakaway, 2 on 1, shorthanded opportunities and so on that come every single game. Not even Brodeur in his prime would be able to keep this team winning. You need to stop looking simply at numbers and start looking at what's happening on the ice, Rinne, Lundquist, Miller, Brodeur, Rask, Quick, and Price would all do just as bad on our team. You found one of the few bright spots on our team and made a thread trying to discredit that bright spot, congratulations, you're a tool

He's been bad this year. I am clearly watching a different goalie. Im not blaming our losses on him. That's where you are misunderstanding me. Im saying there are quite a few goalies better than Jimmy. He's in the middle of the pack talent wise. Not in the top tier.

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He's been bad this year. I am clearly watching a different goalie. Im not blaming our losses on him. That's where you are misunderstanding me. Im saying there are quite a few goalies better than Jimmy. He's in the middle of the pack talent wise. Not in the top tier.

Name 5 goalies better than Jimmy please, and don't just look at stats

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Luongo, Lundquist, Brodeur, Fausth, Emmerson

Those 5 are the first that popped into my head.

Edit: Anderson I mean. Sens guy.

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LMAO, Fasth has played 9 NHL games and that somehow makes him a better goalie than Howie? Lungquist JUST started playing well, he had a terrible start to the season. Luongo and Brodeur are playing well, and who the hell is Emmerson?

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