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Hockeytown0001

4/7 GDT : Blues 1 at Red Wings 0

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I didn't realize they started giving out the Stanley Cup for teams making it to the Conference Finals. Is that the goal now, Conference Finals?

Sigh.

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I'm glad someone pointed this out. When you have an abundance of skill players - especially certain American and Swedish defensemen who are experts at getting shots through from the perimeter, driving the net becomes less of a priority.

However, when you've lost those players and have replaced them with basically Kronwall and nothing else, driving the net becomes crucial to getting the puck into the scoring zone. This is one of the main reasons why this team's personnel or strategy needs to be revamped.

This is one of the main reasons why we presently suck. It's an identity crisis. It's limbo. It's stuck-in-the-middle-with-you.

It's bulls***.

Are we a kill-with-skill puck-posession team? I hope not, because we don't have the personnel.

Are we a crash-and-bang and grind-it-out kind of team? I hope not, because our top six is soft as silk (and, really, our bottom six ain't so hot either). Which is to say: we don't have the personnel.

We are amazing at playing the perimeter in the o-zone. Watch us pass, and pass some more, and hey, how about some more pa--WHOA! A SHOT FROM THE POINT! BY - wait for it - KRONWALL! BET THEY DIDN'T SEE THAT ONE COM--EMERICK: "...and [insert name of some no-name goalie who is making us look stupid] makes the easy save and holds on for the whistle." [shot of ttly frusterated Filppula. Because, holy. effing. ess. What do we have to do to score against this guy?!?!?!]

Of course, this is sort of classic Red Wings. We did this kind of stuff even when we were great. Remember when Babcock's Ducks swept us in the first round? Soft perimeter play, and timely defensive lapses. (Note: I'm not necessarily saying that Wings team was great.) Remember last season? Soft perimeter play, and timely defensive lapses. (You'd think we'd learn. Or something.)

Thing is, though, we used to have a s***-ton of skill, talent, moxy, mojo, all that good stuff that can win you a game seven even if you only show up for the last eight minutes of it. A few times we even assembled a - gasp - really, really solid, balanced team. And we wreaked havoc. And Cups were won. And we all rejoiced.

But back to the present.

I'm so glad Holland has sat on his hands for the past however-many-seasons, and that he seems perfectly content to keep doing so until the end of time. (Because, derp, This Is The Cap Era.) And, each season, people will find a way to ttly justificate it. (Because, derp, This Is The Cap Era.)

This Season: "Holland would be a DAMN FOOL to make a move of any kind whatsoever at this point in time!"

Last Season: "Holland would be a DAMN FOOL to make a move of any kind whatsoever at this point in time!"

The Season Before That: "Holland would be a DAMN FOOL to make a move of any kind whatsoever at this point in time!"

The Season Before That : "Holland would be a DAMN FOOL to make a move of any kind whatsoever at this point in time!"

To whom much is given, much is expected. Mothereffers.

I want the Detroit F****** Red Wings back. Where'd they go? I dunno. But I miss them. And I want them back.

(Cue the generic "You're just spoiled! You want a Cup every season - but that's not reality!!!!111oneone" response.)

[/TEH ANGERZ]

Edited by Dabura
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A word or two about skill and puck-possession and all that jazz as it pertains to our beloved DRW:

- You need a Nick Lidstrom. I mean, he doesn't actually have to be a Nick Lidstrom. He could be, oh, I dunno, Jay Bouwmeester (ha! As if he'd ever be available!) What I'm saying is, if you don't have a good puck-moving defenseman, forget it. You can't kill with skill. You can't possesst with zest.

"BUT WHAT'S THAT HAVE TO DO WITH OUR DRW?" you ask? No idea. I just thought it sounded smart.

- The problem with being Ultra-Skilled Puck-Possessor Ninja like we've had been since Fedorov et al.? Here are the things at which you, a USPP Ninja, excel:

- Skill

- Possessing the puck

- Skating (sort of)

- Looking pretty

- "Crazy moves and s***"

- PP/Enforcing

...And here are the things you suck at:

- Everything else

I've said this a bajillion times before, : we are were good with the puck, when we had it. And that's pretty much it. When was the last time we had a really big, physical team? When was the last time we had a really fast team? When was the last time we had the best goalie in the league, no questions asked?

Skill. With the puck. When we had the puck. And the other team didn't have the puck. Because we had the puck. (Ninja.)

That's what we've been up to since the mid-90s. That's the secret to our success. Actually, those three championship rosters (excluding '02, because, c'mon) - that was It. That was the Top of the Red Wings Pops. Because it was more than skill. With the puck. When we had the puck. And the other team didn't have the puck. Because we had the puck. We had balls. And teeth. And muscle. (And eyes - and a nose! And ears!!! OH MY GOD - IT'S A FACE!!!!!!!!) We could switch things up if we had to. We could hurt you in multiple ways. We had Larry. Effing. Murphy. BEFORE THE HOT DOGS.

But, for the most part, it's been underpants skill --> [ . . . ] --> Profit.

And now we can't do it no more. And this is problematic.

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Fil is probably wishing he was a UFA last year and not this one..He makes 3 mill/per and the way he is playing he shouldn't get a dime more. Over handles the puck every single play.

This

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I want the Detroit F****** Red Wings back. Where'd they go? I dunno. But I miss them. And I want them back.

(Cue the generic "You're just spoiled! You want a Cup every season - but that's not reality!!!!111oneone" response.)

[/TEH ANGERZ]

So, do you think you are spoiled because you want the cup every season?

Do you know where the Detroit Red Wings went? The Wings can no longer buy the best team in hockey to play for them. You can blame the salary cap. You can blame small market teams whining about no league parity. You can blame the fans of these small market teams getting upset because their teams cannot compete. Henceforth, the salary cap was made.

So, in this post salary cap era, less deals are being done.

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Sigh.

You walked in right in the middle of something you didn't see play out. I assume that's why you're acting so exasperated, or condescending, or whatever this is. The guy I was responding to took me out of context as well, I assume in an effort to be argumentative. Initially, I said that because an eighth seed won the Cup last year doesn't mean that if you "make the playoffs, anything can happen". It happened once...ever. So it really can't. Then that guy hit me with a bunch of stats about how low ranking teams make it to the Conference Finals all the time. Which is true...but in no way does that mean that "anything can happen". Those teams don't win the cup, so again, it can't.

I don't know whether you agree with that or not, but I figured I'd clarify because it's obvious from you "sigh" that you're real butt hurt about something.

Edited by kipwinger
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I didn't realize they started giving out the Stanley Cup for teams making it to the Conference Finals. Is that the goal now, Conference Finals?

The goal is to win the Cup every year and every year we don't is a complete and utter failure

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No team in any sport can compete at a championship level every single season. Fans here are so spoiled and have such a sense of entitlement. Even with the best players in the world, this team didn't win it every year or even make it out of the first round every year. The best team with the most talent doesn't win the Cup. There are so many variables involved. So this year, all the teams that fans having been drooling over, Pittsburgh, Boston, Chicago, St. Louis...one of them will not win the Cup. So are they all complete and utter failures also? Players age, injuries happen, an opposing goalie gets hot, an unknown scores big goals. It happens. You're going to lead a life of disappointment if you think the Wings or any team should be a championship level team every year.

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Yep, we're spoiled because we want our team to win and aren't pleased with subpar effort, arguable roster decisions, and management inaction. Good call.

I'm a little tired of this "well you must not have been a fan during the Dead Wings era or you'd appreciate your team more" argument. Holy cow, you're an older fan and have seen worse teams? Obviously you must love the Wings more and therefore deserve to be condescending about it.

We're not spoiled.

We care as much as everyone else around here does. We just disagree with the current direction.

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You walked in right in the middle of something you didn't see play out. I assume that's why you're acting so exasperated, or condescending, or whatever this is. The guy I was responding to took me out of context as well, I assume in an effort to be argumentative. Initially, I said that because an eighth seed won the Cup last year doesn't mean that if you "make the playoffs, anything can happen". It happened once...ever. So it really can't. Then that guy hit me with a bunch of stats about how low ranking teams make it to the Conference Finals all the time. Which is true...but in no way does that mean that "anything can happen". Those teams don't win the cup, so again, it can't.

I don't know whether you agree with that or not, but I figured I'd clarify because it's obvious from you "sigh" that you're real butt hurt about something.

Well, to be fair, in the salary cap era, which consists of 7 playoff teams, we have had the following seeds win the cup....

Carolina - 2

Ducks - 2

Red Wings - 1

Pittsburgh - 4

Chicago - 2

Boston - 3

Kings - 8

Since we are in uncharted territory here, with incredible parity, I don't think its accurate to say an 8th seed has only won once. The landscape has changed. We start looking at the salary cap era and beyond.

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I don't recall saying a thing about any other era. I'm just realistic enough to know that no team wins it or has a chance to win it every single year. To expect that there aren't going to be some transition periods or some years that are less successful than others isn't logical. For a team in transition like the Wings, I would consider a WCF to be a successful season, not a complete and utter failure.

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I don't recall saying a thing about any other era. I'm just realistic enough to know that no team wins it or has a chance to win it every single year. To expect that there aren't going to be some transition periods or some years that are less successful than others isn't logical. For a team in transition like the Wings, I would consider a WCF to be a successful season, not a complete and utter failure.

Nobody thinks we're supposed to win it every single year. Where did you get that from? Seriously, show me anyone who thinks that we're supposed to win each year.

Most of us are, however, concerned that we've trended downward for four years in a row and have done nothing substantial to stop it. We also are a little worried that in another two years our best player is likely headed to Russia and our remaining "best players" will all be in their mid thirties.

Not even an acknowledgement from management that any of this is an issue. Three straight early playoff exists? No prob, we'll just keep trying with the same roster! We'll be active at the deadline if we do well over the next six games...just kidding, we'll do nothing! We're rebuilding...but only because our offer for Jagr didn't work about two hours ago. No straight answers, no accountability.

Lots of b.s. from those responsible for this team, and not a lot of follow through. Just more of the same...if, if, if. All during the lockout I kept hearing about how the fans needed to hold team execs accountable. What about now? A team that's barely .500, can't score a goal to save it's life, sees it's playoff hopes dwindling with each garbage game, and doesn't do a single thing to help it...for four years! And many fans just keep giving them a pass. Rebuild, reload, whatever. Do something different. The same old thing hasn't worked in a long time now.

We're not spoiled, we're frustrated. Borderline pissed off.

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Nobody thinks we're supposed to win it every single year. Where did you get that from? Seriously, show me anyone who thinks that we're supposed to win each year.

Most of us are, however, concerned that we've trended downward for four years in a row and have done nothing substantial to stop it. We also are a little worried that in another two years our best player is likely headed to Russia and our remaining "best players" will all be in their mid thirties.

Not even an acknowledgement from management that any of this is an issue. Three straight early playoff exists? No prob, we'll just keep trying with the same roster! We'll be active at the deadline if we do well over the next six games...just kidding, we'll do nothing! We're rebuilding...but only because our offer for Jagr didn't work about two hours ago. No straight answers, no accountability.

Lots of b.s. from those responsible for this team, and not a lot of follow through. Just more of the same...if, if, if. All during the lockout I kept hearing about how the fans needed to hold team execs accountable. What about now? A team that's barely .500, can't score a goal to save it's life, sees it's playoff hopes dwindling with each garbage game, and doesn't do a single thing to help it...for four years! And many fans just keep giving them a pass. Rebuild, reload, whatever. Do something different. The same old thing hasn't worked in a long time now.

We're not spoiled, we're frustrated. Borderline pissed off.

This pretty much sums up my view. I'm not upset the team isn't dominating anymore and needs a rebuild. I'm just confused as to exactly what the rebuild plan is.

As has been mentioned before, it's not like going into the season Holland was planning let the kids play and develop, even if it made for a mediocre season. Holland signed guys like Cola and Sammy headed into this season to plug holes. Most of the kids got ice time because of injuries, not strategy.

Even at this trade deadline, he talks about the Wings being in a rebuild phase, while also mentioning going after Jagr. So the Wings are clearly trying to rebuild but he pursued an aging playoff rental?

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This pretty much sums up my view. I'm not upset the team isn't dominating anymore and needs a rebuild. I'm just confused as to exactly what the rebuild plan is.

As has been mentioned before, it's not like going into the season Holland was planning let the kids play and develop, even if it made for a mediocre season. Holland signed guys like Cola and Sammy headed into this season to plug holes. Most of the kids got ice time because of injuries, not strategy.

Even at this trade deadline, he talks about the Wings being in a rebuild phase, while also mentioning going after Jagr. So the Wings are clearly trying to rebuild but he pursued an aging playoff rental?

Maybe a marketing ploy? Brong Jagr in and make a push for a playoff spot and hope to go a few rounds, making money and marketing so many years straight?

I caught parts of the game and confused also with the shuffling

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This pretty much sums up my view. I'm not upset the team isn't dominating anymore and needs a rebuild. I'm just confused as to exactly what the rebuild plan is.

As has been mentioned before, it's not like going into the season Holland was planning let the kids play and develop, even if it made for a mediocre season. Holland signed guys like Cola and Sammy headed into this season to plug holes. Most of the kids got ice time because of injuries, not strategy.

Even at this trade deadline, he talks about the Wings being in a rebuild phase, while also mentioning going after Jagr. So the Wings are clearly trying to rebuild but he pursued an aging playoff rental?

I think they had a plan (Suter and Parise) and were foiled in that plan. I think with the lockout and the uncertainty of the salary cap, they didn't feel comfortable signing any of the other B level free agents like Semin, and being handcuffed with making any moves in the future. So they signed cheap guys they hoped would plug the gap for a year or two until there was a clearer picture of what they had to work with. As much as we all hate it, it HAS worked in the past.

Clearly, that strategy hasn't worked due to the injuries and unproductive seasons by players they counted on like Franzen, Filppula, Kronwall, Quincey and even Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I can't see the point of keeping guys like Tatar in Grand Rapids when you have guys like Cleary who just are not getting the job done.

I would expect that this offseason there would be a clearer direction in place.

If they continue to do the same thing this offseason, then I'd definitely have a problem with it.

Edited by Playmaker
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I think they had a plan (Suter and Parise) and were foiled in that plan. I think with the lockout and the uncertainty of the salary cap, they didn't feel comfortable signing any of the other B level free agents like Semin, and being handcuffed with making any moves in the future. So they signed cheap guys they hoped would plug the gap for a year or two until there was a clearer picture of what they had to work with. As much as we all hate it, it HAS worked in the past.

Clearly, that strategy hasn't worked due to the injuries and unproductive seasons by players they counted on like Franzen, Filppula, Kronwall, Quincey and even Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I can't see the point of keeping guys like Tatar in Grand Rapids when you have guys like Cleary who just are not getting the job done.

I would expect that this offseason there would be a clearer direction in place.

If they continue to do the same thing this offseason, then I'd definitely have a problem with it.

I agree with what you're saying, but even if all of that is true, it's still poor management.

1) No way should Parise/Suter have been our only off season plan. You can't put all your eggs in that basket and then do nothing else when it doesn't work.

2) Holland has to come to terms with the fact that if you want to add a key piece via free agency or trade, you have to spend money. It's not an overpayment, it's the going rate for top talent.

3) The job of all the management staff is to evaluate any given situation and give the team options going forward. If they thought Semin was B rate then they need to be fired. They need to scout better or something, because I managed to figure out that Semin was the byproduct of a s***ty system in Washington. If I know it, they need to know it too.

4) A couple of cheap plugs, particularly at your depth positions (bottom six, bottom pair) isn't that big of a deal. But when you've got holes in the top six, and you lose three of four top defenders you can't replace them all with plugs or else all your key positions will be filled inadequately. For example: It's ok to plug the fourth line center with Emmerton, it's not ok to plug a top line winger with Samuelsson.

5) Finally, even if you are going to just plug holes, do it cheaply or don't do it. Holland hates to overpay for talent, but consistently overpays for plugs. It adds up. We spent roughly 12 million dollars last summer and have NOTHING to show for it. Plugging a hole with Eaves or Miller (close to league minimum when we signed them) is money well spent. Plugging holes with 2.5-3.5 million dollar contracts isn't really a good idea, especially if you've got a lot of holes.

Management gets paid to scout, draft, develop, plan, acquire, trade, and sign the best team possible at any given time. It's a tough job, but they get paid the big bucks because they're supposedly up to it. They haven't been lately.

Edited by kipwinger

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1) No way should Parise/Suter have been our only off season plan. You can't put all your eggs in that basket and then do nothing else when it doesn't work.

2) Holland has to come to terms with the fact that if you want to add a key piece via free agency or trade, you have to spend money. It's not an overpayment, it's the going rate for top talent.

I will only address two of your points because the rest of them I agree with.....

There were only two top tier free agents last season. Both didn't choose the biggest paycheck, but chose to go to Minnesota because that is where they played before. So, for the 2012 off season, that was really the only plan that 20 other clubs had. The free agent market on top flight free agents is always the slimmest, so really its going to come down to 1-2 guys most seasons. Which means that its going to be that, or using plugs.

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I will only address two of your points because the rest of them I agree with.....

There were only two top tier free agents last season. Both didn't choose the biggest paycheck, but chose to go to Minnesota because that is where they played before. So, for the 2012 off season, that was really the only plan that 20 other clubs had. The free agent market on top flight free agents is always the slimmest, so really its going to come down to 1-2 guys most seasons. Which means that its going to be that, or using plugs.

I don't necessarily agree though. Semin was available, Wideman was in play early (rights traded I know), Carle was available. He didn't make an offer to any of those guys. By the time Suter and Parise made their decision we'd already signed Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavsson. That was his consolation prize. It was those guys, plus Suter and Parise, or those guys and nothing. That's a huge drop off.

I'd have felt a lot better if we'd entered the Suter/Parise sweepstakes after trading for Wideman's rights and making a competitve offer for Semin. Then if we miss out we've still got decent talent coming in. Instead we miss out and have Sammy and Colaiacovo to look forward to.

Edited by kipwinger

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I don't necessarily agree though. Semin was available, Wideman was in play early (rights traded I know), Carle was available. He didn't make an offer to any of those guys. By the time Suter and Parise made their decision we'd already signed Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavsson. That was his consolation prize. It was those guys, plus Suter and Parise, or those guys and nothing. That's a huge drop off.

I'd have felt a lot better if we'd entered the Suter/Parise sweepstakes after trading for Wideman's rights and making a competitve offer for Semin. Then if we miss out we've still got decent talent coming in. Instead we miss out and have Sammy and Colaiacovo to look forward to.

I agree, there were better 2nd tier players to choose from and an offer should have been extended. I believe I read somewhere that Matt Carle got a contract offer from the Wings but it didn't have the length that he got from Philly. You are mentioning a couple good 2nd tier players, but thats the point isn't it? There aren't that many great players out there. The only one I can really crack Kenny on was not being serious about Semin.

I do hear what you are saying though and I agree with it. I just believe that we may have only been able to use plugs for this year because of the weak talent pool of free agents.

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I don't necessarily agree though. Semin was available, Wideman was in play early (rights traded I know), Carle was available. He didn't make an offer to any of those guys. By the time Suter and Parise made their decision we'd already signed Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavsson. That was his consolation prize. It was those guys, plus Suter and Parise, or those guys and nothing. That's a huge drop off.

I'd have felt a lot better if we'd entered the Suter/Parise sweepstakes after trading for Wideman's rights and making a competitve offer for Semin. Then if we miss out we've still got decent talent coming in. Instead we miss out and have Sammy and Colaiacovo to look forward to.

I don't necessarily have an issue with them not signing Semin, Wideman or Carle. Semin is making 7 million this year. How would the team and the fan base feel about him being our highest paid player? He's also had a reputation of being lazy and not bringing it every night. It is a one year deal, but whether he was asking for only 1 year in the beginning isn't clear. Wideman isn't a top two defenseman, and yet he's signed for like 5 years, 26 million. Carle is the same, long term deal for almost 6 million a year. That would have taken up all the cap room and then some. Jimmy Howard is a UFA this year, as is Flip, Cleary, Brunner, Ian White and Drew Miller. Plus we have several of the young guys who are RFA. Smith, Nyquist, Andersson, Kindl. So we have to sign those players (hopefully not Cleary and maybe not White), but that's a lot of salary increases and the Wings only have 17 million to work with. Wideman and Carle would have taken up a big chunk of that. Hopefully, too, the Wings use their 2 buyouts to rid us of some dead weight (Sammy, Cola) to free up a few million, but its still cutting things close.

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I read through this thread again and I know that this post will seem like in trying to say that I was right and the people I was arguing with we're wrong, but I that is not my intention so please take this in the spirit in which its intended.

I made the point that anything can happen in the playoffs and a few people jumped on me saying that it can't and the wings don't have the roster to make any sort of run in the playoffs. Yet here we are up 3-1 on Chicago and even I am surprised at what this team has done. The Wings have the skill, grit, and goaltending to compete with anybody, it was just a matter of putting it together at the same time. It is a nice change to feel what the fans of all the teams that knocked off the heavily favored wings in the past 15 years.

I'm so proud to be a hockey fan in general because its the only sport where every team has a legit shot to win a championship.

The Stanley Cup Playoffs: Anything is possible.

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I read through this thread again and I know that this post will seem like in trying to say that I was right and the people I was arguing with we're wrong, but I that is not my intention so please take this in the spirit in which its intended.

I made the point that anything can happen in the playoffs and a few people jumped on me saying that it can't and the wings don't have the roster to make any sort of run in the playoffs. Yet here we are up 3-1 on Chicago and even I am surprised at what this team has done. The Wings have the skill, grit, and goaltending to compete with anybody, it was just a matter of putting it together at the same time. It is a nice change to feel what the fans of all the teams that knocked off the heavily favored wings in the past 15 years.

I'm so proud to be a hockey fan in general because its the only sport where every team has a legit shot to win a championship.

The Stanley Cup Playoffs: Anything is possible.

You don't want to say "I told you so", but then you proceed to pretty much say "I told you so", though in a more respectful manner than most others would.

I don't think there's a need to continue that aspect of discussion in the GDT for a game that was a month and a half ago... The GDT for tonight's game will do just fine.

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