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FifeHockeyNut

Tootoo Waived

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Tootoo was never used probably here, either Babcock doesn't know how to play gritty guys or Kenny didn't want him to play his role so I am a bit saddened seeing him clear waivers. At some point the front office should know the identity of this team and go after players, which fit that.

The upcoming UFA class has one big name on it and that's a guy who most believe is Minnesotta Wild bound, sadly I think Phaneuf will re-sing with the TorontoMapleLeafs.

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Good. So if no one else gets injured by the time Ericsson and Franzen are back, he'll go to GR. If someone else gets injured or ill, he'll stay up. Works for me. I'll stop crying and wailing now. I've gotten telegrams from Uganda stating that I'm scaring their children.

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Something important to keep in mind...and I'm not saying this fully justifies what Holland has done, just keep the following in mind.

This whole loyalty to a fault thing may have behind the scenes benefits. The way we treat our players is well known around the league and may benefit us in the following ways:

- Cheaper contract extensions (Kronwall, Datsyuk, etc.)

- Hossa/Alfreddson signings...yes they reached out to us but did our reputation help us out here?

- DeKeyser - did our rep help us attract this guy who could've signed with any club

- Brunner - see above, yes we didn't keep him, but again we attracted a high value target.

If you are going to bash Holland for loyalty (and I do think he's taken it too far) at least give him some credit for the positives that may arise from it.

i think you are overvaluing hollands role in the points you mention above.

aside from using the cap circumvention tricks that many used for several years to keep cap hits down, there aren't really any red wings who have signed well below market value to stay. i do not believe that holland has helped keep costs down.

hossa and alfredsson came here to play with top quality players and in hossascase to win a cup. in 3 or 4 years when 13 and 40 have retired, who will wnat to come play here with the top talent we dont have? regardless, this point speaks to the talent we already have not hollands ability to attract free agents. both player fell into his lap, that doesnt exactly scream 'highly skilled gm' by getting them signed.

DD is another bad example because there was nothing holland could do to woo him. all teams were able to offer the same max entry contract. there was nothing creative or mind blowing that holland needed to do to make the deal happen. at the end of the day DD is from michigan and went to college in michigan, it once again is not a signing that should be a feather in a gms cap.

brunner i guess is a decent example of a nice signing. however, what is the point when they let him go a year later for nothing in return?

my point in all of this is that overall KH has had more misses than hits in recent years. i believe that he and babcocks resistance to youth is about to hamstring this team for years to come. i am really excited about so many prospects in this organization, but when they never are put n a position to succeed, then it doesnt matter how deep the prospect pool is...

i am not saying KH is a moron or should be fired tomorrow. i just worry that he is leading the team in the wrong direction. i also feel like his reputation is overblown and thats how he gets by so easily.

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i think you are overvaluing hollands role in the points you mention above.

aside from using the cap circumvention tricks that many used for several years to keep cap hits down, there aren't really any red wings who have signed well below market value to stay. i do not believe that holland has helped keep costs down.

hossa and alfredsson came here to play with top quality players and in hossascase to win a cup. in 3 or 4 years when 13 and 40 have retired, who will wnat to come play here with the top talent we dont have? regardless, this point speaks to the talent we already have not hollands ability to attract free agents. both player fell into his lap, that doesnt exactly scream 'highly skilled gm' by getting them signed.

DD is another bad example because there was nothing holland could do to woo him. all teams were able to offer the same max entry contract. there was nothing creative or mind blowing that holland needed to do to make the deal happen. at the end of the day DD is from michigan and went to college in michigan, it once again is not a signing that should be a feather in a gms cap.

brunner i guess is a decent example of a nice signing. however, what is the point when they let him go a year later for nothing in return?

my point in all of this is that overall KH has had more misses than hits in recent years. i believe that he and babcocks resistance to youth is about to hamstring this team for years to come. i am really excited about so many prospects in this organization, but when they never are put n a position to succeed, then it doesnt matter how deep the prospect pool is...

i am not saying KH is a moron or should be fired tomorrow. i just worry that he is leading the team in the wrong direction. i also feel like his reputation is overblown and thats how he gets by so easily.

There isn't any resistance to youth. There's just resistance to the youth that you personally want to see. Smith is young, Dekeyser is young, Andersson is young, Tatar is young, Lashoff is young. All of them have seen significant playing time this year and last. Mrazek will next year, and so will Nyquist. If Nyquist were playing right now you wouldn't be saying either Babcock or Holland were resistant to youth influxes. You're only saying this because you'd rather have Nyquist than Cleary or Sammy. We all would. But not playing one guy does not make an organization resistant to youth.

But, but, but...Quincey is terrible and Quellet is sooooooooooooo good! Everybody used to say the same thing about Smith. In truth, most guys in GR need to be there another year at least, Nyquist, Mrazek, and Glendening aside.

Edited by kipwinger
FlashyG and Son of a Wing like this

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At this point, Kenny should be looking to move Francine... I wouldn't mind Francine for Booth (as the last has another year in his contract) and Francine will be more Francine...

I could see Vancouver going after Francine, he could be playing with the sister twins Sandy's

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...DD is another bad example because there was nothing holland could do to woo him. all teams were able to offer the same max entry contract. there was nothing creative or mind blowing that holland needed to do to make the deal happen. at the end of the day DD is from michigan and went to college in michigan, it once again is not a signing that should be a feather in a gms cap...

DD is not a bad example, my whole point was that the Wings got DD outside of simply offering more money. Why did DD choose the Wings when 29 other teams offered the exact same package. My point is that Holland deserves some credit for the intangibles that brought a guy like DD to the Wings.

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DD is not a bad example, my whole point was that the Wings got DD outside of simply offering more money. Why did DD choose the Wings when 29 other teams offered the exact same package. My point is that Holland deserves some credit for the intangibles that brought a guy like DD to the Wings.

I don't know. Dekeyser was born in Detroit, played minor hockey around the Detroit area and I'm guessing grew up watching the Red Wings.

The Wings won Cups when he was 7, 8, 12 and 18 years old. That had to help the Wings lobbying efforts a lot.

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Seems anytime this organization makes a mistake everyone piles on Holland and anytime something positive occurs its attributed to other factors.

We've always had more of a "braintrust" then a sole acting GM. But I guess it's easier to lay all the blame on one guy.

Definitely a few mistake signings but I'd still rather have the issue of too much depth rather than too little.

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I have no problem giving credit where I think it's due. I believe Holland is a great GM, and arguably the best in the league. We're hugely spoiled brats who don't appreciate how good we really have it with Holland at the helm. But, at the same time, I feel it's becoming increasingly hard to say, "Ken Holland. Nuff said." Jordin Tootoo @ 1.9?

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It's starting to feel like there should be a separate thread regarding the Wing's ongoing cap crunch, but for now this seemed like the best place.

Ansar Khan @AnsarKhanMLive 21s

Once Ericsson comes off LTIR next FRI, sending Tootoo to G. Rapids won't clear enough cap space for Wings. Still need to shed more salary.

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DeKeyser also played youth hockey with Jim Nill's son, so they knew each other. I'm sure that helped. Other teams may have offered immediate icetime (the Wings supposedly had no plans of playing him right away) but ultimately, the draw of playing at home was probably the biggest factor. If we're going to cite it as a reason the Wings lost out on Parise and Suter, we have to acknowledge it as a reason they got DeKeyser.

I'm not surprised Tootoo was waived and I'm not surprised he cleared. I do like him, I was surprised when the Wings signed him, and I was shocked and disappointed when I saw the terms of his contract. He had been making $1.2M per year in Nashville and was phased out of their lineup. Why a 3-year deal and why such a big raise? It's obviously come back to burn Holland. I think he should have offered somewhere between $1M-1.3M per year, and if Tootoo rejected it, move on. You can't pay 4th-line/healthy scratch players that kind of money.

Samuelsson is another story... he made $2.5M per year on his Vancouver contract. He was productive (74gp--30g-23a--53pts, 75--18-32--50, and 54--14-17--31 in the 3 years) but missed some time each season, especially in the last year, split between Vancouver and Florida. Although I hated the signing from day one, it's reasonable to expect that production should have (and maybe would have, barring the injuries) continued, even if it decreased somewhat. You can blame Holland for that signing (I do), but you can't blame him for the lack of results.

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It's starting to feel like there should be a separate thread regarding the Wing's ongoing cap crunch, but for now this seemed like the best place.

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 21s

Once Ericsson comes off LTIR next FRI, sending Tootoo to G. Rapids won't clear enough cap space for Wings. Still need to shed more salary.

I thought it was interesting that George Malik stated today that Sammy's NTC is actually limited and requires him to submit a list of 8-12 teams he WILL NOT go to. This is news to myself and I'm sure everyone.

Maybe a glimmer of hope he actually can be traded without his consent?

amato likes this

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Sortof off topic but ive been checking out Tomas Jurco n the kid looks insane. Only 2 pts behind Nyquist on the griffins. Anyone have any idea when he'll crack the lineup? Next season?

Next season? No....Sammy very and cleary will be back.....maybe in Ten years.

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I thought it was interesting that George Malik stated today that Sammy's NTC is actually limited and requires him to submit a list of 8-12 teams he WILL NOT go to. This is news to myself and I'm sure everyone.

Maybe a glimmer of hope he actually can be traded without his consent?

Capgeek has said all along that he had a limited no trade clause

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Capgeek has said all along that he had a limited no trade clause

Nope just NTC. It will state whether it's modified or has stipulations.

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DeKeyser also played youth hockey with Jim Nill's son, so they knew each other. I'm sure that helped. Other teams may have offered immediate icetime (the Wings supposedly had no plans of playing him right away) but ultimately, the draw of playing at home was probably the biggest factor. If we're going to cite it as a reason the Wings lost out on Parise and Suter, we have to acknowledge it as a reason they got DeKeyser.

I'm not surprised Tootoo was waived and I'm not surprised he cleared. I do like him, I was surprised when the Wings signed him, and I was shocked and disappointed when I saw the terms of his contract. He had been making $1.2M per year in Nashville and was phased out of their lineup. Why a 3-year deal and why such a big raise? It's obviously come back to burn Holland. I think he should have offered somewhere between $1M-1.3M per year, and if Tootoo rejected it, move on. You can't pay 4th-line/healthy scratch players that kind of money.

Samuelsson is another story... he made $2.5M per year on his Vancouver contract. He was productive (74gp--30g-23a--53pts, 75--18-32--50, and 54--14-17--31 in the 3 years) but missed some time each season, especially in the last year, split between Vancouver and Florida. Although I hated the signing from day one, it's reasonable to expect that production should have (and maybe would have, barring the injuries) continued, even if it decreased somewhat. You can blame Holland for that signing (I do), but you can't blame him for the lack of results.

I can't trash Holland for signing Samuelsson. It made some degree of sense at the time. But multi-year and NTC did not.

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I can't trash Holland for signing Samuelsson. It made some degree of sense at the time. But multi-year and NTC did not.

Don't forget he gave him a $500k per year raise too.

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It's starting to feel like there should be a separate thread regarding the Wing's ongoing cap crunch, but for now this seemed like the best place.

Ansar Khan @AnsarKhanMLive 21s

Once Ericsson comes off LTIR next FRI, sending Tootoo to G. Rapids won't clear enough cap space for Wings. Still need to shed more salary.

Won't Almqvist go back down once E is back? That plus Tootoo should make them cap-compliant.

Although math was never my strong suit...

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I thought it was interesting that George Malik stated today that Sammy's NTC is actually limited and requires him to submit a list of 8-12 teams he WILL NOT go to. This is news to myself and I'm sure everyone.

Maybe a glimmer of hope he actually can be traded without his consent?

Well, that is just excellent news. I don't think I've ever liked a post on LGW more. Now if only we could get someone to want him and that terrible contract....

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Well, that is just excellent news. I don't think I've ever liked a post on LGW more. Now if only we could get someone to want him and that terrible contract....

Philly, they'll take anyone.

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There isn't any resistance to youth. There's just resistance to the youth that you personally want to see. Smith is young, Dekeyser is young, Andersson is young, Tatar is young, Lashoff is young. All of them have seen significant playing time this year and last. Mrazek will next year, and so will Nyquist. If Nyquist were playing right now you wouldn't be saying either Babcock or Holland were resistant to youth influxes. You're only saying this because you'd rather have Nyquist than Cleary or Sammy. We all would. But not playing one guy does not make an organization resistant to youth.

But, but, but...Quincey is terrible and Quellet is sooooooooooooo good! Everybody used to say the same thing about Smith. In truth, most guys in GR need to be there another year at least, Nyquist, Mrazek, and Glendening aside.

thanks for answering with a bunch of hyperbole. it always helps advance a conversation along! /sarcasm

the red wings have openly stated they want to keep their prospects in the minors for a long time. i'm pretty sure when an organization goes on the record saying something like that, there's not much reason to try and say it isn't the case. this is not about cleary versus nyquist or something so simple. this is about a pattern over several years where the wings will have young player that they never give a chance to. they stash them in the ahl for years and then give them limited chances to prove themselves often not putting them in a chance to succeed.

heck, you mention quincey. he's a great example showing how long this has been going on. he was always sheltered in detroit and had to go to other teams to prove he could make it in the nhl. (however his second stint here is really making me question that!) but had he stayed in detroit, he most likely would have never got those minutes because we were too busy keeping a 58 year old chris chelios on the roster. additionally we had guys like ritola and mursak that showed great potential, but were only given limited 4th line minutes before moving on. sure you can say neither of them made it in the nhl anywhere else, but that's not the point. the point is that the team needs to give younger players a legitimate shot at proving themselves.

it worries me that guys like tatar and nyquist will suffer the same fate as guys like ritola and mursak. guys that had promise but never helped the team.

and yes there are a number of younger players on the team now. unfortunately, it seems to always take a rash of injuries to make that happen. i know we are a top level team and don't have slots for youth, but it was frustrating to see the blackhawks last year manage to fit in saad and shaw into their very high quality lineup and allow them to excel. you look at a guy like shaw who as a 5th rounder but has the 5th most games played by anyone in his draft class right now.

for forwards, there have not been any players under 25 given chances to play in the top 6 in the last several years. we have been a bit open to trying the european guys like leino and brunner and giving them minutes, but i just don't see much opportunity for our young players. on defense the last 12 months have been nice. it was good to see that holland gave younger players a chance after we lost all the veterans. i am hoping that attitude continues.

long story short, i am trying to have a genuine conversation and make legitimate points. i would appreciate less mocking in peoples responses.

Edited by dobbles

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Customer is always right? Right? Well, the paying customers want Sammy, Cleary and Eaves off the menu. Customer is always right? Right?

No, especially when you are talking about something like a professional sports organization, very often the customer is quite wrong.

Mannnn whatever ... waive Cleary, Samuelsson and throw Bertuzzi in, as well. Bunch of "been there, done that" lazy, uninterested [or incapable] players who are taking roster spots away from our young guys. Kind of a joke regarding #71 & #44 ... but, kind of not too. :smh:

Why would the Wings waive Bert? He is 3rd in goals, 6th in assists, and 5th in overall points, and leads the team in power play goals (all the while only averaging 14:42 of TOI per game). It would be beyond silly to waive him.

edit: Clarity

Edited by Frozen-Man
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. additionally we had guys like ritola and mursak that showed great potential, but were only given limited 4th line minutes before moving on. sure you can say neither of them made it in the nhl anywhere else, but that's not the point. the point is that the team needs to give younger players a legitimate shot at proving themselves.

Ritola and Mursak were never given a proper shot because quite frankly they weren't good enough.

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Ritola and Mursak were never given a proper shot because quite frankly they weren't good enough.

i honestly don't think that assessment can be made. there was never much time to tell. before getting injured, the year mursak finally got games, he was on a line with holmstrom and emmerton at even strength. no one was going to put up tons of points in that role.

as it stands right now, tatar and nyquist fall into the exact same category. neither of them can stick in the lineup. so i guess we'll stick with the samuelssons, clearys, bertuzzis, maltbys, etc until they are well past serviceable because we are too afraid to take a chance.

we see all the time players that are not given a shot by a team and go on to be very successful in other places. our organization has had success with that very concept in the past. dan cleary gave us many good years of hockey. but yet if you asked blackhawk fans 10 years ago about dan cleary, you would have gotten the same response as you just gave about mursak or ritola.

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i honestly don't think that assessment can be made. there was never much time to tell. before getting injured, the year mursak finally got games, he was on a line with holmstrom and emmerton at even strength. no one was going to put up tons of points in that role.

as it stands right now, tatar and nyquist fall into the exact same category. neither of them can stick in the lineup. so i guess we'll stick with the samuelssons, clearys, bertuzzis, maltbys, etc until they are well past serviceable because we are too afraid to take a chance.

we see all the time players that are not given a shot by a team and go on to be very successful in other places. our organization has had success with that very concept in the past. dan cleary gave us many good years of hockey. but yet if you asked blackhawk fans 10 years ago about dan cleary, you would have gotten the same response as you just gave about mursak or ritola.

They are available to every team in the league. Nobody wants them. Its not like we're the only ones with their game footage and are hiding their talents from everyone.

Bottom-line their not talented enough.

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