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TheDetroitRedWings

Shawn Thornton attacks Orpik (leaves game on stretcher)

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Well Neal got 5 games, but according to Shanny's video he wasn't considered a repeat offender for some reason even though he'd been suspended twice before. I don't really get it.

“Though he is not a repeat offender under terms of the CBA (collective bargaining agreement), we cannot ignore the fact that Neal has previously been fined once and suspended twice in his six-year NHL career,”

The CBA says he's not a repeat offender. Shanny doesn't ignore the fact that he's been suspended and fined before.

Status as a "first" or "repeat" offender shall be re-determined every eighteen months. For example, where a player is suspended for the first time, he is a repeat offender if he is suspended again within eighteen months of the first incident. If he is not suspended a second time within this eighteen month period, he is no longer a repeat offender for disciplinary purposes.

Neal's last suspension was April 2012... he's cleared that 18 month window.

National Hockey League Collective Bargaining Agreement
Factors In Determining Supplementary DisciplineIn deciding on supplementary discipline, the following factorswill be taken into account:     a)   The type of conduct involved: conduct outside of NHLrules; excessive force in contact otherwise permitted by NHLrules; and careless or accidental conduct. Players areresponsible for the consequences of their actions.     b)   Injury to the opposing player(s) involved in theincident.     c)   The status of the offender, and specifically whether heis a first time or repeat offender.  Players who repeatedlyviolate NHL rules will be more severely punished for eachviolation.     d)   The situation of the game in which the incidentoccurred: late in the game, lopsided score, prior events in thegame.     e)   Such other factors as may be appropriate in thecircumstances.

As sick as it is.. if Marchand had been stretchered off, maybe Neal probably would have gotten more.

Edited by e_prime

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“Though he is not a repeat offender under terms of the CBA (collective bargaining agreement), we cannot ignore the fact that Neal has previously been fined once and suspended twice in his six-year NHL career,”

The CBA says he's not a repeat offender. Shanny doesn't ignore the fact that he's been suspended and fined before.

If Marchand had been stretchered off, maybe Neal would have gotten more.

I'm still glad this wasn't the case and I really dislike Marchand, he is only tough because he can hide between McQuaid, Lucic, Chara and Shawn Thornton, but if he would have been stretchered off one is looking at a severe (maybe even crosbylike concussion) and that's something I don't want to see/read about a player, no matter if I like him or not.

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Finally, here's a video of the hit in slow motion (please disregard the crappy music and text commentary). There's a slow mo of the hit at :46 seconds. Play attention to the puck, it pretty clearly changes directions after hitting Eriksson's stick about a fraction of a second before the hit. The only way this is a penalty is if someone wants to say that he targeted the head (but Eriksson's head and body moved right before the hit after Orpik had already committed) or that he charged (Orpik left his feet on the follow through). Other than that it's just a good, well timed hockey hit.

Yeah, the original angles I saw it was hard to tell if the puck was just skipping. But here it does look like it probably clipped it.

It's a predatory hit by Orpik so I'm not surprised the Bruins are upset, in the same way people react to Kronner's hits. But Thorton's actions are way over the line. If a guy doesn't want to engage you have to let it go and get retribution other ways. Orpik could've been a marked man all game and you take shots at their stars. There's no excuse for what Thornton did.

This is a difficult point to make because it sounds like I'm excusing Thornton's actions and I'm not, but I was surprised at the outcome and stretcher and whatnot because the actions themselves didn't seem that brutal. He must've really caught Orpik on the button or something. But that's exactly why you can't pull crap like that on an unsuspecting player. You end up with Bertuzzi-Moore, or McSorley.

The league could've helped itself by coming down on the Emery mugging and established a precedent for beating an unwilling opponent. Though at the same time you don't want to create an environment where the rats can operate more freely.

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“Though he is not a repeat offender under terms of the CBA (collective bargaining agreement), we cannot ignore the fact that Neal has previously been fined once and suspended twice in his six-year NHL career,”

The CBA says he's not a repeat offender. Shanny doesn't ignore the fact that he's been suspended and fined before.

If Marchand had been stretchered off, maybe Neal would have gotten more.

Ah gotcha, I guess I wasn't paying good enough attention while that was on. Thanks for the clarification.

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Shanahan is such a joke. How can one justify not even looking at the hit from Orpik

How could one justify looking at the hit from Orpik? Absolutely nothing wrong with it, about as clean as you get. The only argument that could be made is whether or not there is interference as he didn't have the puck, but the puck was coming to him and he didn't get it. Either way, that argument, by no means, creates an argument for suspension.

He got hurt on the play because he fell back and hit his head on the ice, didn't look like Orpik made contact with his head at all....shoulder dead on chest/shoulder.

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Yeah, the original angles I saw it was hard to tell if the puck was just skipping. But here it does look like it probably clipped it.

It's a predatory hit by Orpik so I'm not surprised the Bruins are upset, in the same way people react to Kronner's hits. But Thorton's actions are way over the line. If a guy doesn't want to engage you have to let it go and get retribution other ways. Orpik could've been a marked man all game and you take shots at their stars. There's no excuse for what Thornton did.

This is a difficult point to make because it sounds like I'm excusing Thornton's actions and I'm not, but I was surprised at the outcome and stretcher and whatnot because the actions themselves didn't seem that brutal. He must've really caught Orpik on the button or something. But that's exactly why you can't pull crap like that on an unsuspecting player. You end up with Bertuzzi-Moore, or McSorley.

The league could've helped itself by coming down on the Emery mugging and established a precedent for beating an unwilling opponent. Though at the same time you don't want to create an environment where the rats can operate more freely.

I agree with you about the hit, it's definitely predatory. He was hitting Eriksson whether he touched the puck or not. It's almost by pure luck that it turned out not to be illegal.

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Ah gotcha, I guess I wasn't paying good enough attention while that was on. Thanks for the clarification.

I hate the idea of this 18 month "Oh you've been a good boy, we'll clean your slate." nonsense.

In my opinion, to say that it shouldn't factor is bologna.

I'm still glad this wasn't the case and I really dislike Marchand, he is only tough because he can hide between McQuaid, Lucic, Chara and Shawn Thornton, but if he would have been stretchered off one is looking at a severe (maybe even crosbylike concussion) and that's something I don't want to see/read about a player, no matter if I like him or not.

Yeah, I edited that post to ensure that no one thought I was hoping or wanting Marchand to be stretchered off.

Neal's knee was just as reckless and disgusting as Thorton's actions.

Also, love Neal's dodging of the question on hitting Marchand.

Edited by e_prime
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I hate the idea of this 18 month "Oh you've been a good boy, we'll clean your slate." nonsense.

In my opinion, to say that it shouldn't factor is bologna.

I agree with you, but if Neal's not careful he's going to get taught a hard lesson soon enough. Star or not, if he gets the reputation as a dirty player (and he will if he keeps pulling crap like this) sooner or later they'll hand him a real serious suspension.

Edited by kipwinger

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I hate the idea of this 18 month "Oh you've been a good boy, we'll clean your slate." nonsense.

In my opinion, to say that it shouldn't factor is bologna.

But previous history here wasn't a "non-factor." If Neal had no previous history at all, I doubt he gets 5 games. If you think about it, 5 games is actually quite a bit for an incident that didn't result in any injury. I have no idea on the stats, but I'd guess there would be very few suspensions of greater than 5 games that had no injuries involved.

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But previous history here wasn't a "non-factor." If Neal had no previous history at all, I doubt he gets 5 games. If you think about it, 5 games is actually quite a bit for an incident that didn't result in any injury. I have no idea on the stats, but I'd guess there would be very few suspensions of greater than 5 games that had no injuries involved.

Intentional knee to the head doesn't warrant five games? Repeat offender or not? It makes the league look like a joke.

If the league REALLY wants to get the number of concussions down, they need to stop looking at injury or non-injury on a play as a factor in suspensions and take things like a knee to a head seriously.

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If Thornton gets more than 5 games, it just once again proves what a complete joke the NHL is, and how hypocritcal they are.

Lets be real here, Thornton didn't even drop the gloves, he just caught Orpik just right with a gloved hit and briefly KO'd him. The only reason everyone is making a big deal out of it is because the brought in the stretcher. Players throw punches to each others face with gloves on literally every single game at some point.

Neal should have had the book thrown at him. That knee was such a digusting and dirty play. Thornton was out of line too, but Neals hit was WAY worse, IMO. The intent from Neal was nothing other than to seriously injure.

Lets also not forget that the reason Thornton went after Orpik was because Neal immediately after kneeing Marchand in the head, ran to the bench like a gutless coward so he wouldn't have to go with any of the Bruins. If Neal stays on the ice to face the music, Thornton goes after him instead.

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I'm not sure what you're "just saying".

The game of ice hockey at the pro levels were pretty wild in those days (maybe even more so at the AHL/IHL level)...Alot of 5 on 5 line brawls, crazy hair, porn staches, lots of missing teeth, many bruised faces, only a handful wore helmets...Like I said - wild times.

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After I've really had time to look at this....I'm not even convinced Orpik was knocked out, or hurt for that matter. I think he was embellishing it....a lot. IMO he never goes limp, as players are falling on him he kind of moves around. If you want to know what happens when someone goes limp, see Kronwall/Havlat.

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After I've really had time to look at this....I'm not even convinced Orpik was knocked out, or hurt for that matter. I think he was embellishing it....a lot. IMO he never goes limp, as players are falling on him he kind of moves around. If you want to know what happens when someone goes limp, see Kronwall/Havlat.

Who ever said he was knocked out? All I heard was that he was concussed, which can happen without being knocked out.

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There are a couple things that I think are very odd, when I read this thread. Everyone brings up the knee by Neal. I don't get what that has to do with anything. One suspension-worthy offense doesn't validate another.

Also, I don't understand the focus on the result of the incident. It shouldn't matter if orpik was hurt or if he jumped up and started river dancing. Thornton assaulted someone, on the ice. It's the same reason emery should have been suspended.

Before anyone brings up McCarty, if a wings player did that now, I would say he should be suspended. When I was 8, McCarty turtling Lemieux was the most awesome thing ever. Now, I'd be troubled by it, especially if it was done the same way. What Bert did to Moore is a perfect example of why there should be no tolerance for this stuff. He never intended for the result to be what it was. But, stuff happens. Especially when you attack someone when he's not expecting it.

I think the proper punishment for this kind of attack is an automic 20 game suspension. A subsequent offense should be a year or more. This isn't like an illegal hit, for which it is harder to determine the intent. When you attack someone or swing for the head, it's pretty clear what you're trying to do.

Edited by The Greek
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Who ever said he was knocked out? All I heard was that he was concussed, which can happen without being knocked out.

I heard several times it was referred to as 'Orpik out cold'. I'm not defending Thornton, because that was indeed a mugging that shouldn't have happened so I guess it's rather irrelevant whether Orpik sold it or not. Just an observation is all.

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There are a couple things that I think are very odd, when I read this thread. Everyone brings up the knee by Neal. I don't get what that has to do with anything. One suspension-worthy offense doesn't validate another.

Also, I don't understand the focus on the result of the incident. It shouldn't matter if orpik was hurt or if he jumped up and started river dancing. Thornton assaulted someone, on the ice. It's the same reason emery should have been suspended.

Before anyone brings up McCarty, if a wings player did that now, I would say he should be suspended. When I was 8, McCarty turtling Lemieux was the most awesome thing ever. Now, I'd be troubled by it, especially if it was done the same way. What Bert did to Moore is a perfect example of why there should be no tolerance for this stuff. He never intended for the result to be what it was. But, stuff happens. Especially when you attack someone when he's not expecting it.

I think the proper punishment for this kind of attack is an automic 20 game suspension. A subsequent offense should be a year or more. This isn't like an illegal hit, for which it is harder to determine the intent. When you attack someone or swing for the head, it's pretty clear what you're trying to do.

I was 26 back then, and thought it was awesome that someone finally gave Lemieux what he deserved...Even better it being a Detroit Red Wings.

I'm 43, and still feel the same way - then again I'm a fan from a different era.

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I was 26 back then, and thought it was awesome that someone finally gave Lemieux what he deserved...Even better it being a Detroit Red Wings.

I'm 43, and still feel the same way - then again I'm a fan from a different era.

Sure, Thornton crossed the line in a disgusting way but it's not like the Penguins are a clean-team by any ways. Also Thornton has been in a lot of heated situations and never ever has been suspended, huge kudos to him and I would love to have a guy like him protecting Pasha, Z and the young guns instead of only one guy who is willing to stand up for them in Sam...

Loved what McCarty did back then and now that I'm older I love it even more! Rock'em Sock'em hockey, even Lemieux said he wanted a guy like McCarty on the Stars because of how well DMac played his role.

Edited by frankgrimes
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Sure, Thornton crossed the line in a disgusting way but it's not like the Penguins are a clean-team by any ways. Also Thornton has been in a lot of heated situations and never ever has been suspended, huge kudos to him and I would love to have a guy like him protecting Pasha, Z and the young guns instead of only one guy who is willing to stand up for them in Sam...

Loved what McCarty did back then and now that I'm older I love it even more! Rock'em Sock'em hockey, even Lemieux said he wanted a guy like McCarty on the Stars because of how well DMac played his role.

I don't know your age, and maybe it's a poor generalization on my part, but I tend to believe that many of us mid 30's, and older tend to be indifferent towards these sorts of violent acts (meaning that we were around in the 70's/80's when pro ice hockey was arguably it's most violent).

I'm not condoning what Thornton did to Orpik, and indeed it was a cheap shot...Now with that said - I'm the sort who's felt if a certain player has a habit of running, or injuring opponents, or is generally known around the league as a cheap shot artist - well - that player better grow eyes on the back of his head.

Edited by F.Michael

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I don't know your age, and maybe it's a poor generalization on my part, but I tend to believe that many of us mid 30's, and older tend to be indifferent towards these sorts of violent acts (meaning that we were around in the 70's/80's when pro ice hockey was arguably it's most violent).

I'm not condoning what Thornton did to Orpik, and indeed it was a cheap shot...Now with that said - I'm the sort who's felt if a certain player has a habit of running, or injuring opponents, or is generally known around the league as a cheap shot artist - well - that player better grow eyes on the back of his head.

I'm a bit younger but had the pleasure of watching and reading about NHL hockey back then, because for whatever reason we could watch some NA channels :)

The prime example for a clean player to me is LSchenn, physical on every shift but he always keeps his ellbows where they belong and doesn't cross the line, like the Neals, Cooks and Torreses. I would bet a lot of money, that Thornton himself is ashamed by what he did this man has played with and for the code his entire career

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I was 26 back then, and thought it was awesome that someone finally gave Lemieux what he deserved...Even better it being a Detroit Red Wings.

I'm 43, and still feel the same way - then again I'm a fan from a different era.

Maybe it's not an age or a generational thing. The more I know and learn, it just becomes harder for me to be entertained by naked violence.

If Lemieux turned out like Moore, would you still feel the same way? It doesn't matter why McCarty did it. Bert was doing it to stick up for naslund. It shouldn't be allowed because you run the unnecessary risk of severely injuring someone. Although I don't support fighting, it would have been far better to pummel Lemieux face to face, when he's consenting. Not some blindside punch he wasn't expecting. If Lemieux doesn't want to fight, put him into the boards, hard, every chance you get. Also, you could just win. How much does mccarty's fight mean if we ended up losing to the Av's in the playoffs?

Edited by The Greek
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There are a couple things that I think are very odd, when I read this thread. Everyone brings up the knee by Neal. I don't get what that has to do with anything. One suspension-worthy offense doesn't validate another.

Also, I don't understand the focus on the result of the incident. It shouldn't matter if orpik was hurt or if he jumped up and started river dancing. Thornton assaulted someone, on the ice. It's the same reason emery should have been suspended.

Before anyone brings up McCarty, if a wings player did that now, I would say he should be suspended. When I was 8, McCarty turtling Lemieux was the most awesome thing ever. Now, I'd be troubled by it, especially if it was done the same way. What Bert did to Moore is a perfect example of why there should be no tolerance for this stuff. He never intended for the result to be what it was. But, stuff happens. Especially when you attack someone when he's not expecting it.

I think the proper punishment for this kind of attack is an automic 20 game suspension. A subsequent offense should be a year or more. This isn't like an illegal hit, for which it is harder to determine the intent. When you attack someone or swing for the head, it's pretty clear what you're trying to do.

Good post. It's counter intuitive to argue that this type of thing is no big deal because in the old days it wouldn't have been. In the old days people used to put Mercury on open wounds to help cuts heal. If you did that now you'd be a lunatic. Because it used to be common doesn't mean it still should be.

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Maybe it's not an age or a generational thing. The more I know and learn, it just becomes harder for me to be entertained by naked violence.

If Lemieux turned out like Moore, would you still feel the same way? It doesn't matter why McCarty did it. Bert was doing it to stick up for naslund. It shouldn't be allowed because you run the unnecessary risk of severely injuring someone. Although I don't support fighting, it would have been far better to pummel Lemieux face to face, when he's consenting. Not some blindside punch he wasn't expecting. If Lemieux doesn't want to fight, put him into the boards, hard, every chance you get. Also, you could just win. How much does mccarty's fight mean if we ended up losing to the Av's in the playoffs?

McCarty to this day insists Lemiuex knew he coming and that no blindsiding was involved. Take that how you will.

And it still would have meant the world even had things not turned out the same. It wasn't the hit so much (that was bad enough) as Claude's attitude afterward, He deserved a beatdown, period.

I'm not a proponent of stupid penalties and mindless violence, but I am a huge supporter of sticking up for your team and not letting guys like Cowen get away with manhandling anybody, let alone Pavel. I believe in dual-purpose players - those that can contribute effectively and maintain order and mete out justice, which is what true old time hockey was all about.

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McCarty to this day insists Lemiuex knew he coming and that no blindsiding was involved. Take that how you will.

And it still would have meant the world even had things not turned out the same. It wasn't the hit so much (that was bad enough) as Claude's attitude afterward, He deserved a beatdown, period.

I'm not a proponent of stupid penalties and mindless violence, but I am a huge supporter of sticking up for your team and not letting guys like Cowen get away with manhandling anybody, let alone Pavel. I believe in dual-purpose players - those that can contribute effectively and maintain order and mete out justice, which is what true old time hockey was all about.

Manhandled? You make it seem like Cown shook Pavel like a baby. He skated by him and grazed his face. Nobody, aside from Red Wings fans, thought it was particularly vicious. You can make an argument that it doesn't matter, the head was touched and Cowen needs to be responsible for it. I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

But manhandling? Give me a break.

Edit: Also, why is it that the self styled defenders of "old time hockey" seem to think that every little offense resulted in a fight back then? Gordie Howe was notorious for elbowing yet only had 22 career fights. Why? Because nobody expected you to fight for throwing an elbow. So if you really want "Old Time Hockey", then when Pavel gets elbowed, you should expect him to stop being a pansy and take it like a man instead of wanting Babs to send out an enforcer.

Edited by vladdy16

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