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kickazz

Why the Red Wings get injured

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He had really neat hair when Colton Orr beat the living s*** out of him.

That was the only time Orr beat him. McGrattan is the best in the NHL right now.

Our 4th liners aren't the best at anything, besides putting the JLA crowd to sleep every game.

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So in other words, Downey neutered Lapperrierre.

Thanks for proving our point.

I'm too seasoned an Internet forum vet to reach for such amateurish bait.

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That was the only time Orr beat him. McGrattan is the best in the NHL right now.

Our 4th liners aren't the best at anything, besides putting the JLA crowd to sleep every game.

McGrattan is definately up in the running for the #1 guy but don't forget Steve MacIntyre this guy fought a whole team and even 2 refs couldn't stop him, strong as a mammoth and almost endless stamina, he is that scary!

This team is getting injured, because other teams are finishing their hits, taking liberties and even accepting penalties because they know, the PP sucks. Over the lenght of a full season all the hitting, checking and other stuff is going to wear every team down and injuries are going to increas instead of decrease.

Also to the whole Laperierre thing, the guy was more of an agitator sure he could fight but if the other team had someone like Downey on them, he brought a clean game wonder why that was...

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Because they have no legitimate enforcer. Simply said. Yes, the red wings have very skilled players who have speed. But when teams like Ottawa and Boston are out there out hitting your players 2:1 or 3:1 ratio night after night, (and I don't mean small checks, I mean big massive hits), you cant expect them to last long. Perhaps Ken Holland needs to FINALLY invest in some muscle? I cant think of any out there obviously, and Tootoo wasn't much of a success unfortunately.. but it makes you think. How much longer do the players need to get pushed around till someone gets a head or back injury. O wait.. Zetterberg just had a herniated disk....... Datsyuk got concussion symptoms, oh and so did Franzen... There's a reason the Detroit Red Wings are injury prone folks. It's cuz other teams run around and hit em. If there were enforcers, teams would think twice before laying the hits on star players.

That's my 2 cents on the situation. Please share!

Well - I'm with you on getting some tuffness on this team - however I must respectfully disagree with you on the prevention aspect...

Sure - adding a few scrappers on our roster may make some of our opponents think twice, or keep'em looking over their shoulder, but injuries will take place on any roster regardless...

Right now it's bad luck more than anything else - although the hits to both Dats, and Abby were carried out by other teams tuff guys, and it would've been nice to see someone from the Wings side have a little 'chat' with them.

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This team is getting injured, because other teams are finishing their hits, taking liberties and even accepting penalties because they know, the PP sucks. Over the lenght of a full season all the hitting, checking and other stuff is going to wear every team down and injuries are going to increas instead of decrease.

The power play is currently #12. Five games ago, it was in the top ten. As there's also no correlation between PP% and number of injuries, your point has no merit whatsoever.

Also to the whole Laperierre thing, the guy was more of an agitator sure he could fight but if the other team had someone like Downey on them, he brought a clean game wonder why that was...

I can do nothing but shake my head. Yikes.

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So you go from my claim on hits per game to fighting majors. Cool. Enforcers dont necessarily have to fight they also put aggression towards opponents through hits. And it's a known fact in hockey (if you play, which i feel doubtful seeing your reactions to a basic aspect of hockey; aggression, aka what the sport is KNOWN for) fighting and hits can curve momentum. Hits can send messages to opponents. Hits make people think twice before opponents go after your star players. Hits are a non-verbal way of saying " you hit my guy, i'll hit you and embarrass you." Case and point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLX3299cVEg

Laperriere hit Lidstrom. Downey took revenge. Lappy was a mouse the rest of the series. Wings went on to continue dominating.

Rest of the series? This was a regular season game in February where Lidstrom got hurt against the Avs.

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....so Downey's presence didn't prevent someone from taking liberties with our star defensman. Hmmm. So then enforcers don't prevent players from getting injured.

Got it!

Actually he took liberties BEFORE. Once Downey stepped in not only did it provide furhter momentum for the Red Wings, but it also sent a message to Colorado. What's so hard for you to understand that? It's high school deductive reasoning...

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Now you're changing your tune. Originally you said it's because Detroit doesn't have any "enforcers". Now it's that we don't have anyone who hits. Also, I'd love for you to show how more hitting decreases the likelihood of injury. Any evidence whatsoever? Because one could easily argue that you might in fact have MORE injuries if players hit all the time (see: Helm, Darren).

But again, why let accuracy or consistency get in the way of a good rant. It's obvious that more enforcers...err...hitters...would keep this team healthier.

Here's wikipedia for you:

"Enforcer is an unofficial role in ice hockey. The term is sometimes used synonymously with "fighter", "tough guy", or "goon". An enforcer's job is to deter and respond to dirty or violent play by the opposition. When such play occurs, the enforcer is expected to respond aggressively, by fighting or checking the offender. Enforcers are expected to react particularly harshly to violence against star players or goalies."

You seem to be stuck at the idea that it has to be a fighter? Enforcer can do whatever to provide aggression. And i dont mean silly checks that players put at on the way to the puck i mean big open ice hits that send a retaliation message when our star players are hit.

Let me put this scenario for you.

A. Zetterberg gets hit by Chara. He gets up keeps playing. Next shift: Chara decks Zetterberg again. He continues to get up and keeping going. That's the Red Wings currently.

Here's an alternate scenario.

B. Zetterberg gets hit (open ice clean hit) by Chara. A good one too. Z gets back up and goes after chara to let him know he's got it too. Obviously Z is not that type of player. Ok perhaps on that SAME shift our "enforcer" that we still need to have on this team, sees Chara hit Zetterberg and goes after Chara to hit him (a good clean hit). Or if Chara's hit was brutal, the enforcer challenges Chara to a fight. We have NEITHER. No clean open ice hitters and no fighters. No enforcer whatsoever.

What we did have was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE7oh315Rb0

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1uhorF5LA

Konstantinov didn't fight nearly as much as players his size did at the time. But he was a well known open ice hitter that alleviated the momentum for the team and/or sent message to the opposing team. Oh and btw when the wings did have these types of players; they won cups.

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Ahem. Let us quote the book of "kickazz", chapter 7, post 140...

Yes, I can see how one might confuse "hits" with "fights" when you yourself said the lack of an enforcer was to blame for our injuries.

But to go back to the stats...

Matt Martin (LW, NYI, 6'3" 206lbs) far and away leads the NHL in hits, at 165. Yet the Islanders sit at 86 games lost to injury. If, by your argument, big hitters translate in fewer injuries, why are the Islanders right around the NHL average in games lost? Or Tampa Bay, at 123 games lost, when they have Radko Gudas' 112 hits? Or Toronto, at 97 games lost, when they have Cody Franson's 110 hits?

At best, the teams that have some of the league leaders in hits are among the NHL average in games lost. It still appears that the numbers aren't backing you up.

Let me take your own numbers and prove you wrong. Justin Abdelkader has 103 hits in 34 games played this season. He's no where close to being a legitimate enforcer. "Hits" counted on NHL.com don't define the quality of a hit. Simply said, we need an enforcer that protects our smaller guys and retaliates when needed. It's a simple tenant of hockey. Quantity of hits dont mean anything, they register a small check as a hit. Need a quality enforcer.

Rest of the series? This was a regular season game in February where Lidstrom got hurt against the Avs.

Yes you guys are right that was in the regular season. In any case i do know Lapperierre got owned twice in the same game.

Well - I'm with you on getting some tuffness on this team - however I must respectfully disagree with you on the prevention aspect...

Sure - adding a few scrappers on our roster may make some of our opponents think twice, or keep'em looking over their shoulder, but injuries will take place on any roster regardless...

Right now it's bad luck more than anything else - although the hits to both Dats, and Abby were carried out by other teams tuff guys, and it would've been nice to see someone from the Wings side have a little 'chat' with them.

I see your point but what im trying to say is: Injuries like Henrik Zetterberg's are due to prolonged stress on the body. If he had some protection he may have lasted longer in the season, not get hit as many times. Now we can't compare a hit like Kronwall's were he was boarded into the glass. That's just one play and bad luck. But with Zetterberg's case, this is an injury caused by additive stress.

Edited by kickazz

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I see your point but what im trying to say is: Injuries like Henrik Zetterberg's are due to prolonged stress on the body. If he had some protection he may have lasted longer in the season, not get hit as many times. Now we can't compare a hit like Kronwall's were he was boarded into the glass. That's just one play and bad luck. But with Zetterberg's case, this is an injury caused by additive stress.

Wrong again. Zetterberg has had back problems since early 2007.

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Wrong again. Zetterberg has had back problems since early 2007.

Wrong. The herniated disk he currently has is not the same area of the spinal column were he was hurt in the past. Unrelated anatomically. It's like comparing your thigh to your knee.

Edited by kickazz

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Wrong. The herniated disk he currently has is not the same area of the spinal column were he was hurt in the past. Unrelated anatomically. It's like comparing your thigh to your knee.

Source, please.

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Quiet honestly, i would like to see Franzen and Zetterberg stand up for themselves a bit too. Datsyuk does it on occasion but its uncommon. Steve Yzerman was a hell of a captain. Guy had finesse and would stick up for himself and teammates during a scrum.


Source, please.

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/12/3/5170736/henrik-zetterberg-injury-red-wings-herniated-disc

"An MRI revealed an issue similar to the back injuries he sustained in 2008 and 2009, but developed in a different area."

He missed 19 games in 2006-07 with an inflamed disc, seven games in 2007-08 with back spasms and sore back, and three in 2008-09 with back spasms.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131203/SPORTS0103/312030073#ixzz2nlSc8ysw

Not only different areas but different diagnosis.

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Let me take your own numbers and prove you wrong. Justin Abdelkader has 103 hits in 34 games played this season. He's no where close to being a legitimate enforcer. "Hits" counted on NHL.com don't define the quality of a hit. Simply said, we need an enforcer that protects our smaller guys and retaliates when needed. It's a simple tenant of hockey. Quantity of hits dont mean anything, they register a small check as a hit. Need a quality enforcer.

OK wait a minute....you don't get to bring up hit ratio stats to back up your statement and then claim "quantity of hits don't mean anything."

Edited by Son of a Wing

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Enforcers don't deter anything yet they are everywhere in the league. Why?

esteef

They provide a role at times. However this thread is about whether they prevent injuries which people are turning into a anti/pro-enforcer thread.

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Enforcers don't deter anything yet they are everywhere in the league. Why?

esteef

If they're so useful, then why are they so often scratched from the lineup against teams that do not have enforcers?

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OK wait a minute....you don't get to bring up hit ratio stats to back up your statement and then claim "quantity of hits don't mean anything."

Part of my OP:

"But when teams like Ottawa and Boston are out there out hitting your players 2:1 or 3:1 ratio night after night, (and I don't mean small checks, I mean big massive hits), you cant expect them to last long."

I explicitly mentioned being outhit by massive hits aka quality hits.

If they're so useful, then why are they so often scratched from the lineup against teams that do not have enforcers?

Darren McCarty was an enforcer and played games and almost all playoff games for the red wings when he won the cup 4 times. Bob Probert was one of the biggest enforcers in NHL history and was a regular season and playoff player for the Red Wings. Hell so was Gordie Howe to a certain extent.

Edited by kickazz

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Enforcers don't deter anything yet they are everywhere in the league. Why?

esteef

When they're doing their thing, they deter mid-period trips to the concourse.

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I'd rather see Franzen knee someone in the head, then throw a fit when someone touches glove to his face. Do enforcers prevent injuries? No, but they prevent reoccurring instances where the entire team gets bullied, thus leading to injuries. Enforcers are the street justice of the hockey world. The "police" (refs) aren't doing an adequate job for the most part in supporting player safety, so that's where the thugs come in. Is it really that hard to acquire someone that can fight AND play hockey? Probably not..

Edit: Having players with multiple roles seems to be non existent.

Edited by CMatt89
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If they're so useful, then why are they so often scratched from the lineup against teams that do not have enforcers?

You mean like when Philly played theirs against us recently and won by being overly physical?

esteef

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McGrattan is definately up in the running for the #1 guy but don't forget Steve MacIntyre this guy fought a whole team and even 2 refs couldn't stop him, strong as a mammoth and almost endless stamina, he is that scary!

MacIntyre is ranked higher for me, but he's not an NHL player anymore. He's purely a minor league guy.

I'm too seasoned an Internet forum vet to reach for such amateurish bait.

But of course you are.

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Actually he took liberties BEFORE. Once Downey stepped in not only did it provide furhter momentum for the Red Wings, but it also sent a message to Colorado. What's so hard for you to understand that? It's high school deductive reasoning...

You should use some of that high school logic you seem to be so full of and reevaluate my post, as well as your own OP. I don't care if Lapierre took liberties before, during, or after Downey's response, and based on your premise that an enforcer's presence prevents injuries, you shouldn't either. You asked us all a question in the title of this thread, "Why the Red Wings get injured." You immediately follow that up in the first sentence of your OP with "Because they have no legitimate enforcer." Your argument can then be summed up as 'enforcers prevent injury'. High school reasoning. You also said in your OP that "If there were enforcers, teams would think twice before laying the hits on star players." Again, that reinforces your assertion that the presence of an enforcer would prevent injuries to Red Wings. Downey was dressed and actively used during the game when Lapierre hit and injured Lidstrom; ie Downey the enforcer was present. Based on that example (one which you actually brought forth to the discussion), it is clear that your argument that an enforcer's presence prevents injury is effectively refuted. Downey was present. Lidstrom still got injured.

As for the fight providing momentum and sending a message to the Avs, again I invite you to reread your original post as well as mine. We aren't discussing momentum-shifts or message sending. I never mentioned it. Your OP never mentioned it. That is not the topic of this thread, and if you were interested in discussing that as the premise of your argument, you should have made that clear in your OP. I expect better from someone who is so competent in high-school level logic to bring up irrelevant points to the subject as a response to my retort. It's as Kip mentioned in the first page: you keep changing your tune. Now, if you want to discuss whether the utilization of an enforcer shifts momentum or sends messages to the opposition, you're more than welcome to make a separate thread on those topics, assuming LGW can stomach yet another enforcer thread. But whatever you do, don't bog this already shallow thread down with multiple topics of discussion. Lets stick with injury prevention.

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MacIntyre is ranked higher for me, but he's not an NHL player anymore. He's purely a minor league guy.

But of course you are.

Ranking these two is very hard but after seeing their unreal fight some years ago, theres a case for either one to be the #1. MacIntyre doesn't need to be a good player, just knowing he is there should be enough to make other teams twinking twice about what's coming, if they want to play that style.What's really impressive about Mac is, even other enforcers like Engelland admitted that they would fight him, but they FEAR this guy and rightfully so, he is such a beast.

I've said it before the season and I'll say it again, the East IS a different beast, as prove nby the injury list (I know, a full season has to do something with it tooo).

Also I'm starting to question the fitness trainers, if a team has so many injuries in a short period of time, maybe the training needs to change during a tough schedule? Anyway, concussions for the Mule, Abdelkader and Pasha aren't and shouldn't be acceptable in any way shape or form, Kenny has said he is waiting to answers well I guess here are 3 answers, he as a GM must hate.

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