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gcom007

Trade
Legwand to Detroit for Eaves, Jarnkrok + cond 3rd/2nd

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Sorry, I was under the impression that checkers/grinders are way easier to come by than bonafide skilled centers.

Silly me.

Exactly why he had value in the trade. Thanks for pointing that out.

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Remember all the times Holland was ripped for saying he looked at a few things but ultimately the price was too high to make a deal? Remember all the people that demanded he make a deal this year or he needed to be fired? Jarnkrok was what it took. You can't have it both ways, and border line NHL prospects like Almquist and Ferraro aren't going to get a deal done. Does anyone really believe that Andersson, Sheahan, Glendening, and Emmerton down the middle would have been anything but a disaster? Does anyone think that trading Jurco would have been better?

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I'm as angry about the trade as the next guy but something I didn't consider is Legwand really hasn't played with any superstar type players so he could rejuvenate his career playing with franzen, Z, or Datsyuk when they are healthy.

Wheelchairsuperhero likes this

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Which he probably is right now. Glendening is playing a 4th line grinder role better than Jarnkrok could. Jarnkrok has very good two way play, and would be a much better point producer, but the jump from the AHL to the NHL for a top 6 forward is a lot larger and harder than for a 4th line penalty killer. I don't want to say Jarnkrok couldn't bang in the corners and kill penalties I actually think his defensive game is very underrated, but that is not where he's going to make his mark in the NHL. While he's playing well in the AHL, I doubt the Red Wings or Nashville will call him up right now, plug him in on the second line, give him 2 minutes of powerplay time and 16 minutes a night especially if they want to make the playoffs. He's not ready yet, another off season of strength conditioning and he might be ready.

Agree with everything you've said,but we're talking about Ken the overripe master who threw kid under the bus after 40 AHL games while playing top 6 minutes for the Griffins.

Understand his position.He had to overpay to help the Wings,but it's not fair to criticize kid's and Blashill's work just to justify himself in this trade.

frankgrimes likes this

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You guys really don't seem to get it. There's only so many spots for so many roles.

Jarnkrok is not a checker so he's not fighting for the same spot as Glendening.

The 12 most skilled forwards do not make the team....

Who gives a Crap about glendening he'll be out of the league within 5 yrs

Zetterberg dats and legwand are 33+ they don't have much time .... Very early but weiss has been a disaster and legwand could of probably been had July 1 would just did like Minnesota and thrown the 2 2nd rounders instead

You wanna trade janrkrok? Use him as a key piece in a deal to get the top 4 dman we wanted to get whether it be now or the off season not a 33 yr old ufa ..... Now if kenny gets in his panicky mood in the off season to get a dman say goodby to a Tatar/jurco/pulkkinen type prospect as well

Remember all the times Holland was ripped for saying he looked at a few things but ultimately the price was too high to make a deal? Remember all the people that demanded he make a deal this year or he needed to be fired? Jarnkrok was what it took. You can't have it both ways, and border line NHL prospects like Almquist and Ferraro aren't going to get a deal done. Does anyone really believe that Andersson, Sheahan, Glendening, and Emmerton down the middle would have been anything but a disaster? Does anyone think that trading Jurco would have been better?

At that point he should of done nothing ... Best moves sometimes are the ones you don't make .... Do we have a chance to a make it in the playoffs? Yes but let's be realistic and not delude ourselves our chances aren't very good and were more likely not to get in .... With legwand or without him

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I think the only way to rationalize a trade is to look at it from 2 different approaches:

1. The current value of the player as an asset to his team. (defined by: NHL production, Tangible stats, Chemistry with other players.. ETC)

2. The potential value of the player as a long term asset to his team. (defined by: AHL/CHL/KHL production, Potential, Age, Skillset)

In the case of Calle Jarnkrok, you identify a player who had virtually no value to the Detroit Red Wings as a current asset. As Ken Holland stated, he was never going to make this team while Datysuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, Helm, Andersson and Glendenning were playing ahead of him. And based on his physical tools, we was never going to make this team as 3rd/4th line Center either - meaning he would have had to play in a top 6 Center role (although I am unsure of his ability to play either wing) which wasn't going to happen anytime soon.

As a long term asset, he would have continued to be affected by playing in an organization with a deep pool of players in front of him (at the same position) - that fact on its own brings substance to the idea of him playing in Europe. The problem for the Red Wings was continuing to limit his value as a long term asset by keeping him in the minors at the age of 22,23,24.. etc. Collaterally, you are limiting his "trade bait" potential by doing so. So while you are banking on him being a very good top 6 player one day, it also makes sense to maximize his long term value through trade.

Although I admit the returns for Vanek, Gaborik, Luongo and Moulson seemed to actually be less than what we traded for Legwand - the trade becomes a very good deal if David Legwand decides to re-sign in Detroit. Eaves is a healthy scratch right now and was gone in July, this years (mid-late) second round pick comes in a weak draft, and Jarnkrok has yet to play a shift in the NHL. David Legwand has had what I consider to be "deflated stats" playing in Nashville's system and can provide right now what Jarnkrok scouts think he might be able to provide one day.

Time will tell, but don't write off a guy who's been to the playoffs 22 years in a row, he may know more than we do.

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Who gives a Crap about glendening he'll be out of the league within 5 yrs

Zetterberg dats and legwand are 33+ they don't have much time .... Very early but weiss has been a disaster and legwand could of probably been had July 1 would just did like Minnesota and thrown the 2 2nd rounders instead

You wanna trade janrkrok? Use him as a key piece in a deal to get the top 4 dman we wanted to get whether it be now or the off season not a 33 yr old ufa ..... Now if kenny gets in his panicky mood in the off season to get a dman say goodby to a Tatar/jurco/pulkkinen type prospect as well

At that point he should of done nothing ... Best moves sometimes are the ones you don't make .... Do we have a chance to a make it in the playoffs? Yes but let's be realistic and not delude ourselves our chances aren't very good and were more likely not to get in .... With legwand or without him

None of this makes any sense at all. You're telling me that the defense corps is worse than having Andersson as the 1C? You would rather roll with Andersson as our number 1 center than have Dekeyser, and Quincy as the #3/4 dmen?

You're whole theory is banking on Jarnkrok becoming a stud. You want to bank the season on Jarnkrok becoming a star?

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Agree with everything you've said,but we're talking about Ken the overripe master who threw kid under the bus after 40 AHL games while playing top 6 minutes for the Griffins.

Understand his position.He had to overpay to help the Wings,but it's not fair to criticize kid's and Blashill's work just to justify himself in this trade.

Like I said for me its not about Legwand I like him but I'm getting sick of Holland and his mojo:

- we are only making hockey deals --> this was highway robbery by Poile so the opposite from a hockeydeal

- throwing kids under the bus to make himself look better or like a genius for no good reason

- says you can't fix one of the teams biggest problems toughness, grit well Burke, Mactavish fixed it within weeks

- he now likes our youth and what is he doing ? Trades away our best center prospect yeah Jarnkrok needs to bulk up and put on some serious muscle but the kid is 20 plenty of time to do that

Still wanna get rid of the kid? Fine package him for some much needed defensive help you know someone like Ehrhoff, Myers or use Vancouvers firesale to your advantage a get a guy like Hamhuis or Bieksa (maybe both) here.

This is not the mastermind we are used to. Between 2009 and 2014 something has changed. Thanks for all the great work Holland but now I'm wishing you would have retired with Lidström and made room for another guy.

nyqvististhefuture likes this

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I think the only way to rationalize a trade is to look at it from 2 different approaches:

1. The current value of the player as an asset to his team. (defined by: NHL production, Tangible stats, Chemistry with other players.. ETC)

2. The potential value of the player as a long term asset to his team. (defined by: AHL/CHL/KHL production, Potential, Age, Skillset)

In the case of Calle Jarnkrok, you identify a player who had virtually no value to the Detroit Red Wings as a current asset. As Ken Holland stated, he was never going to make this team while Datysuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, Helm, Andersson and Glendenning were playing ahead of him. And based on his physical tools, we was never going to make this team as 3rd/4th line Center either - meaning he would have had to play in a top 6 Center role (although I am unsure of his ability to play either wing) which wasn't going to happen anytime soon.

As a long term asset, he would have continued to be affected by playing in an organization with a deep pool of players in front of him (at the same position) - that fact on its own brings substance to the idea of him playing in Europe. The problem for the Red Wings was continuing to limit his value as a long term asset by keeping him in the minors at the age of 22,23,24.. etc. Collaterally, you are limiting his "trade bait" potential by doing so. So while you are banking on him being a very good top 6 player one day, it also makes sense to maximize his long term value through trade.

Although I admit the returns for Vanek, Gaborik, Luongo and Moulson seemed to actually be less than what we traded for Legwand - the trade becomes a very good deal if David Legwand decides to re-sign in Detroit. Eaves is a healthy scratch right now and was gone in July, this years (mid-late) second round pick comes in a weak draft, and Jarnkrok has yet to play a shift in the NHL. David Legwand has had what I consider to be "deflated stats" playing in Nashville's system and can provide right now what Jarnkrok scouts think he might be able to provide one day.

Time will tell, but don't write off a guy who's been to the playoffs 22 years in a row, he may know more than we do.

Great Post. Nice to actually see a well thought out argument hitting on many key points while also addressing each side.

number9 and wingsfan91 like this

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None of this makes any sense at all. You're telling me that the defense corps is worse than having Andersson as the 1C? You would rather roll with Andersson as our number 1 center than have Dekeyser, and Quincy as the #3/4 dmen?

You're whole theory is banking on Jarnkrok becoming a stud. You want to bank the season on Jarnkrok becoming a star?

You have to look ahead towards the future .... Getting the top 4 dman would be a lot more valuable .... Everyone's just thinking about the present and keeping the streak alive ... While it's nice I much rather prefer looking ahead

Our chances of getting in the playoffs let alone winning the cup aren't great this season ... Just being realistic

Imagine the pressure Weiss would feel to return to being top line center by yourself to take the team to the playoffs

As opposed to playing on a team stacked full of talent and having no pressure on him and yet producing mediocre numbers that even Hayley wickenheiser would surpass? Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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Who gives a Crap about glendening he'll be out of the league within 5 yrs

Zetterberg dats and legwand are 33+ they don't have much time .... Very early but weiss has been a disaster and legwand could of probably been had July 1 would just did like Minnesota and thrown the 2 2nd rounders instead

You wanna trade janrkrok? Use him as a key piece in a deal to get the top 4 dman we wanted to get whether it be now or the off season not a 33 yr old ufa ..... Now if kenny gets in his panicky mood in the off season to get a dman say goodby to a Tatar/jurco/pulkkinen type prospect as well

At that point he should of done nothing ... Best moves sometimes are the ones you don't make .... Do we have a chance to a make it in the playoffs? Yes but let's be realistic and not delude ourselves our chances aren't very good and were more likely not to get in .... With legwand or without him

Hmm, our chances right now are 52%, win tonight and it would be about 60%. Having Legwand playing the rest of the season drastically improves our chances of making the playoffs. And if we make the playoffs and get healthy we could be a very serious contender. There was no reason to waste this season of having Alfredsson, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, that would be a mistake. Worst case scenario is we miss the playoffs this year, get healthy next year and become a very legitimate threat in the eastern conference with our strong center depth. If our team is healthy we have a very good team.

I think there is more to be gained to improve our chances at making the playoffs this year, and most likely the next few years to come during Datsyuk and Zetterberg's prime, than risk losing a prospect that wouldn't have made an impact on the team for at least a couple more seasons. Legwand improves our team now, and will be a better NHL player during Datsyuk/Zetterberg's prime than Jarnkrok.

Just in case you are wondering where i got the chances for playoffs http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL.html

wings4thecup06 likes this

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You have to look ahead towards the future .... Getting the top 4 dman would be a lot more valuable .... Everyone's just thinking about the present and keeping the streak alive ... While it's nice I much rather prefer looking ahead

Our chances of getting in the playoffs let alone winning the cup aren't great this season ... Just being realistic

As opposed to playing on a team stacked full of talent and having no pressure on him and yet producing mediocre numbers that even Hayley wickenheiser would surpass?

yuck_imdone.gif

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Like I said for me its not about Legwand I like him but I'm getting sick of Holland and his mojo:

- we are only making hockey deals --> this was highway robbery by Poile so the opposite from a hockeydeal

- throwing kids under the bus to make himself look better or like a genius for no good reason

- says you can't fix one of the teams biggest problems toughness, grit well Burke, Mactavish fixed it within weeks

- he now likes our youth and what is he doing ? Trades away our best center prospect yeah Jarnkrok needs to bulk up and put on some serious muscle but the kid is 20 plenty of time to do that

Still wanna get rid of the kid? Fine package him for some much needed defensive help you know someone like Ehrhoff, Myers or use Vancouvers firesale to your advantage a get a guy like Hamhuis or Bieksa (maybe both) here.

This is not the mastermind we are used to. Between 2009 and 2014 something has changed. Thanks for all the great work Holland but now I'm wishing you would have retired with Lidström and made room for another guy.

Holland bashing aside (and the 22 consecutive years of playoff hockey - I honestly wonder if most of us here actually appreciate that and how incredible that is) here's why I disagree with you:

  • This is a hockey deal if Legwand re-signs (which seems more likely - read Khan's article as to how excited DL is to be playing in Detroit http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/03/david_legwand_excited_to_retur.html)
  • The playoff streak aside, the question then becomes 'do you want to make the playoffs or not?' To which the answer should always be a resounding 'yes'. Make it a double yes when you factor in a relatively weak and wide open Eastern Conference. If that isn't the answer every single year then the organisation is doing something wrong
  • How is KH throwing kids under the bus? He had to make a move due to our injuries. By not making a move, it's suicidal for our playoff chances.
  • Can you reference where he has implicitly stated our biggest weakness is lack of toughness or grit?
  • And he likes our youth - Jurco, Sheahan, Nyqvist, Tatar, DeKeyser, and maybe a few others who are in the pipeline like Mantha, Athanasiou, Pulkkinen, Almquist etc etc. The whole point of having a deep prospect pool aside from replenishing your lineup is to use them as assets to upgrade your team. I see nothing wrong with doing so here. Legwand fills a need right now and one that makes this team better going forward. Jarnkrok does not and KH made it clear that he's behind lots of guys. Would you rather have one prospect who's 2/3 years away from making an impact be the reason you didn't make the push to make the playoffs? (streak or no streak)
  • And there have been various reports that have stated Canucks ownership nixed them trading Kesler/Edler etc (http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2014/03/05/no-confidence-in-canucks-front-office-ownership-after-idle-trade-deadline/)
  • And as for everyone else, it was most likely that we'd have to pay a hell of alot more for one those aforementioned D men - which would have created uproar here. Oh and there's also a salary cap to deal with.
Edited by wings4thecup06
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Hmm, our chances right now are 52%, win tonight and it would be about 60%. Having Legwand playing the rest of the season drastically improves our chances of making the playoffs. And if we make the playoffs and get healthy we could be a very serious contender. There was no reason to waste this season of having Alfredsson, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, that would be a mistake. Worst case scenario is we miss the playoffs this year, get healthy next year and become a very legitimate threat in the eastern conference with our strong center depth. If our team is healthy we have a very good team.

I think there is more to be gained to improve our chances at making the playoffs this year, and most likely the next few years to come during Datsyuk and Zetterberg's prime, than risk losing a prospect that wouldn't have made an impact on the team for at least a couple more seasons. Legwand improves our team now, and will be a better NHL player during Datsyuk/Zetterberg's prime than Jarnkrok.

Just in case you are wondering where i got the chances for playoffs http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL.html

These stats records don't take into consideration that we're missing datsyuk and zetterberg longterm as well as weiss although he's been a bust And now helm and lets not forget Frankenstein had injury problems this season and could go at anytime .... Knock on wood

We'll see what happens

Still rather of used jarnkrok in a bigger deal

yuck_imdone.gif

Laugh it up sideburns

Your probably one of the ones giving me he'll for hating the weiss signing and saying he was overrated .... Still too early to tell but I'm looking good so far

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It's not cause he didn't steal a player ... He over payed for legwand ... Pure and simple .... Tsn said the trade went down just before 3pm ... Looks like a Desperation trade by Kenny

Don't let facts get in the way. Keep ranting.

"He said he first heard of the potential deal at 12:30 p.m. Wednesday and it was completed a minute before the 3 p.m. deadline."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/03/david_legwand_excited_to_retur.html

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this trade should be revisited after this weekend..if Legwand keeps the playoff hopes alive,I guess I might just stfu..if his only upside is "He`s not as bad as Andersson on the first line!" well, you know the drill

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Don't let facts get in the way. Keep ranting.

"He said he first heard of the potential deal at 12:30 p.m. Wednesday and it was completed a minute before the 3 p.m. deadline."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/03/david_legwand_excited_to_retur.html

Potential trade .... Trade completed a minute before 3pm ... Thanks for making my point

this trade should be revisited after this weekend..if Legwand keeps the playoff hopes alive,I guess I might just stfu..if his only upside is "He`s not as bad as Andersson on the first line!" well, you know the drill

Next 5 games are big .... We go 1-4 goodbye season

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“I think every kid growing up here is a Red Wings fan, as they should be,” Legwand. “The tradition, the history, the players that have been here from the past, they’ve meant a lot to the city and to the team.”

*cough cough*

Kesler

:shutup:

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“I think every kid growing up here is a Red Wings fan, as they should be,” Legwand. “The tradition, the history, the players that have been here from the past, they’ve meant a lot to the city and to the team.”

*cough cough*

Kesler

:shutup:

Not really aimed at you, but am I the only person that thinks Legwand might be a better option?

4 year difference in age, Kesler will make 5 million the next two seasons, Legwand you have to think won't be paid more than 4.5, and most likely will take a pay cut.

Legwand has a career PPG of .59, Kesler has a career PPG of .61 that's with playing in a more offensively talented Vancouver team. Legwand has actually outpaced Kesler so far this year in points. Defensively Kesler is better, they are about equal at the face-off circle. They are about identical when it comes to size, 6'2" 210.

But the difference to me comes with how much Kesler would have cost the Wings. I don't know I think Legwand is terribly underrated by a lot of the people here.

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Holland bashing aside (and the 22 consecutive years of playoff hockey - I honestly wonder if most of us here actually appreciate that and how incredible that is) here's why I disagree with you:

  • This is a hockey deal if Legwand re-signs (which seems more likely - read Khan's article as to how excited DL is to be playing in Detroit http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/03/david_legwand_excited_to_retur.html)
  • The playoff streak aside, the question then becomes 'do you want to make the playoffs or not?' To which the answer should always be a resounding 'yes'. Make it a double yes when you factor in a relatively weak and wide open Eastern Conference. If that isn't the answer every single year then the organisation is doing something wrong
  • How is KH throwing kids under the bus? He had to make a move due to our injuries. By not making a move, it's suicidal for our playoff chances.
  • Can you reference where he has implicitly stated our biggest weakness is lack of toughness or grit?
  • And he likes our youth - Jurco, Sheahan, Nyqvist, Tatar, DeKeyser, and maybe a few others who are in the pipeline like Mantha, Athanasiou, Pulkkinen, Almquist etc etc. The whole point of having a deep prospect pool aside from replenishing your lineup is to use them as assets to upgrade your team. I see nothing wrong with doing so here. Legwand fills a need right now and one that makes this team better going forward. Jarnkrok does not and KH made it clear that he's behind lots of guys. Would you rather have one prospect who's 2/3 years away from making an impact be the reason you didn't make the push to make the playoffs? (streak or no streak)
  • And there have been various reports that have stated Canucks ownership nixed them trading Kesler/Edler etc (http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2014/03/05/no-confidence-in-canucks-front-office-ownership-after-idle-trade-deadline/)
  • And as for everyone else, it was most likely that we'd have to pay a hell of alot more for one those aforementioned D men - which would have created uproar here. Oh and there's also a salary cap to deal with.

I respect your opinion like everyones else but the point for me is:

This season is toast, Pasha and Z are hurt IF they return for the playoffs (if we make them) both are going to have some catchup to do during the hardest part of the season. We are not going to win anything this year so I would be fine with missing the playoffs and get a better draft pick in an already - according to some TSN experts - weak one.

Last season Holland said, every team wants the next Lucic and more size, grit and toughness but such guys need to be developed, well Burke, Mac Tavish are just trading for them. Grit, Toughness and size is the easiest part to fix and yet Kenny has failed in doing so since the days of Dmac and Downey - unexcusable.

He likes our youth? Now he does before the season the guy was quoted saying "the kids aren't the answer" if not for the injuries Nyquist would still be playing in the AHL and Tatar would have pulled a Kovalchuck. I'm extremely worried about the upcoming draft and UFA period now. I can see it Mantha for Jagr and a second rounder. Sure a guy like Ehrhoff would have had a higher pricetag but fixed our weakest spot = puck moving defenceman who isn't atrocious in his own end.

Holland did some great things for this franchise, as did Bowmann but I think it's time for him to move up for a guy with almost endless resources given by the best owner he should have done a better job, period.

As for Kesler I'm glad we didn't trade for him the price would have been to high and the guy is for sure looking for a big raise think about 7 x 7 after his contract is done.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Well if LGW is a microcosm of our fanbase...then that's no surprise.

Or he made a panic move and realizes he has to defend it somehow.

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Not really aimed at you, but am I the only person that thinks Legwand might be a better option?

4 year difference in age, Kesler will make 5 million the next two seasons, Legwand you have to think won't be paid more than 4.5, and most likely will take a pay cut.

Legwand has a career PPG of .59, Kesler has a career PPG of .61 that's with playing in a more offensively talented Vancouver team. Legwand has actually outpaced Kesler so far this year in points. Defensively Kesler is better, they are about equal at the face-off circle. They are about identical when it comes to size, 6'2" 210.

But the difference to me comes with how much Kesler would have cost the Wings. I don't know I think Legwand is terribly underrated by a lot of the people here.

I wasn`t talking about acquiring Kesler, cause I am aware the price would be pretty unreal..just comparing Legwand`s statement to Kesler`s childhood preference for the Avalanche, since he also grew up in Michigan

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