• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Andy Pred 48

Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Rate this topic

2,595 posts in this topic

Yeah Rafalski was a loser too... Hell even Hull and Robitallie were losers.

Gimme break. Kip, ur not usually one to hold irrational bias but ur doing just that at the moment.

Sproul and Ouellet are still big ? And we have money to spend. Signing a Boyle wouldn't be a terrible loser decision.

Why get stuck with a niskanen for 7 years (who's had 1 good season , he's no number1-2 dman in my opinion) when we got guys with a ton of potential In ouellet sproul marchenko backman jensen almquist etc Coming up in 1-3 years

Boyle signed for 1yr-2yrs max would be a good fit , no ones expects him to be a top pairing dman now and he'd help the ppl , yes his stats have declined but he'd still be good for 30-45 pts and help take the puck out of the zone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah Rafalski was a loser too... Hell even Hull and Robitallie were losers.

Gimme break. Kip, ur not usually one to hold irrational bias but ur doing just that at the moment.

Sproul and Ouellet are still big ? And we have money to spend. Signing a Boyle wouldn't be a terrible loser decision.

Obviously, there's a little bit of tongue in cheek skepticism going on when I say these guys are losers. BUT teams much better than ours (e.g. San Jose, Pittsburgh, Boston) have all failed recently, despite having Boyle and Iginla. If we signed them both, AND Alfie, we'd still lose in the playoffs (provided we even made it). I don't see the point of signing these guys if they can't help us short AND long term, because in the short term we're not competing for a Cup, and in the long term they'll be retired.

Give me Niskanen and Kesler, or give me the kids. Boyle and/ Iginla and/or Alfie don't do anything except maybe prolong the inevitable playoff loss, and worsen our draft position.

Edit: We need young help. And I don't mean the kids. We need players who are in their primes or just hitting their primes (26-30). Because whether we like it or not, Dats and Z can't carry us to a Cup anymore. And no matter how bad we want it to be so, those two are never going to be 29-30 years old again.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But I think Holland is realizing that his tactics haven't borne the fruit he hoped they would, and so he may be looking to change tack.

Yes, Boyle is a classic Holland signing, but Holland seems to realize that those classic signings haven't paid off so well lately. I'm looking (hoping?) for him to make a big splashy move to shake things up. I think he's done with patching things and hoping for miracles.

Maybe I've lost my mind, but this doesn't come across as a patch-up move to me, so much as a "bridging-the-gap" move. I mean, obviously management has a much better idea than anyone who posts here does about the future talents of this team, but at this stage I have NO idea who they should keep going forward.

I seriously think the team needs to take looks at Backman, Ouellet, Sproul and Marchenko in a relatively "safe" environment this season. To me, that means insulated minutes on that third pairing. They've pushed the RH shot thing to death in the post-season interviews, so to me that says Sproul and Marchenko are going to get a chance to become NHL regulars next season.

My concern about making a big move is that this team may not know what they're giving up yet. Unless they're trading for a legitimate RH, big minute guy, I wouldn't even bother. And in that case, how many of those teams are willing to move a guy that fits the bill? I would be thrilled if we could somehow scoop up a Bogosian, Carlson or even Hamonic/Myers. The rest of the guys above them (Weber, PK, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, etc) I'd say are out of the realm of possibility.

Right now, for this coming season and perhaps the next season, I'd rather insulate a youth movement by bringing in an older guy to pair with DeKeyser. With the glut of young guys, something has to give. I really think Holland goes one of two ways - surround the young guys with veterans and weed them into the line-up, or move 2-3 of them for a sure-fire top 4 guy. I just don't see him making the big move.

Edit: We need young help. And I don't mean the kids. We need players who are in their primes or just hitting their primes (26-30). Because whether we like it or not, Dats and Z can't carry us to a Cup anymore. And no matter how bad we want it to be so, those two are never going to be 29-30 years old again.

Who's in the position to move one of those guys, though? I would say Winnipeg, with the emergence of Trouba. Perhaps the Isles (Hamonic) or Buffalo (Myers). I think it has to be a perfect situation, and no one's in the business of helping another team in this league. Holland's mentioned several times, right-handed defensemen are at a premium in this league.

Which team wants to move one in his prime, and what's the price? Generally, they'd be asking for a return of forwards if they're well stocked on defense, not multiple, younger defenders. And if that's the case, it's usually for a veteran with a rebuild in mind.

Edited by Jesusberg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who's in the position to move one of those guys, though? I would say Winnipeg, with the emergence of Trouba. Perhaps the Isles (Hamonic) or Buffalo (Myers). I think it has to be a perfect situation, and no one's in the business of helping another team in this league. Holland's mentioned several times, right-handed defensemen are at a premium in this league.

Which team wants to move one in his prime, and what's the price? Generally, they'd be asking for a return of forwards if they're well stocked on defense, not multiple, younger defenders. And if that's the case, it's usually for a veteran with a rebuild in mind.

I agree with you in the sense that it's tough to do. But I don't believe that the only possible option to upgrade our defense over the last five years was A) washed up old guys, or B) mediocre young guys.

Lots of good young defensemen have moved around the last 5 years, Holland hasn't wanted to pony up. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you in the sense that it's tough to do. But I don't believe that the only possible option to upgrade our defense over the last five years was A) washed up old guys, or B) mediocre young guys.

Lots of good young defensemen have moved around the last 5 years, Holland hasn't wanted to pony up. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to do.

Considering some of the rumored prices for defenders that have been rejected by other teams (Nyquist + Tatar for Bouwmeester, Nyquist + Smith + 1st for Edler), I'm just not sure what they'd have to offer for a legitimate guy. Personally, I don't want them to move Nyquist, Tatar or Jurco up front, but what other attractive assets does the team have?

I'd love if Kenny could land a legitimate top 4 defender, I'm just not sure how feasible it is. Adding Boyle and working some of the younger guys into the system seems feasible to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd love if Kenny could land a legitimate top 4 defender, I'm just not sure how feasible it is. Adding Boyle and working some of the younger guys into the system seems feasible to me.

I agree, this is feasible. But it's not a contender. And if we're not going to contend either way, I'd rather the kid get the experience, the team get a higher draft pick, and Dan Boyle go someplace else.

What would signing him accomplish?

Kronwall, Smith, Ericsson, Dekeyser, Boyle, and kids is still not a very good defense. So why waste the money and keep a deserving kid from getting experience? Who knows, a kid might surprise you. God knows nobody thought Sheahan or Jurco were ready until they were given a chance. You know who definitely isn't going to surprise you though? Dan Boyle. He's just going to be a less good version of his old self (which wasn't all that great to begin with).

F.Michael likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, this is feasible. But it's not a contender. And if we're not going to contend either way, I'd rather the kid get the experience, the team get a higher draft pick, and Dan Boyle go someplace else.

What would signing him accomplish?

Kronwall, Smith, Ericsson, Dekeyser, Boyle, and kids is still not a very good defense. So why waste the money and keep a deserving kid from getting experience? Who knows, a kid might surprise you. God knows nobody thought Sheahan or Jurco were ready until they were given a chance. You know who definitely isn't going to surprise you though? Dan Boyle. He's just going to be a less good version of his old self (which wasn't all that great to begin with).

Detroit basically rolled over against Boston. I personally believe part of it was because they didn't move the puck well enough to utilize their speed up front. I think the kids can get experience, and will learn from the experience of someone like Boyle. I don't think Smith or DK are far enough along that they can manage their own pairing, and if you're throwing in two of Sproul, Marchenko, Ouellet, etc. that's what you're getting.

I actually think that defense does look good, aside from needing a bigger body or two. I agree that Boyle's long in the tooth, but his 36 points would have been good for 2nd in scoring on this team's defense. I disagree that Dan Boyle was never good to begin with - he was one of the better puck moving, offensive defenders in this league for several years. He was top 10 in defensive scoring year after year. Is he that guy anymore - absolutely not, but I believe that his 30-35 points, and experience can help this team.

I don't believe in the "contend or tank" mentality, because if this team showed one thing in their series with Boston it's that they need experience - playoff experience. It's not like the prospect cupboard is bare - the team needs to add some depth at center and perhaps a winger or two, but I'd say they're pretty solid on defense, in goal.

Personally, as long as the kids are getting experience, I could care less if this team has a few early round exits. You build from those experiences, and as you've said, Dats and Z aren't going to be around forever. Playoff experience allows you to shape your Nyquist, Sheahan, Jurco and Tatar - tanking does not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Detroit basically rolled over against Boston. I personally believe part of it was because they didn't move the puck well enough to utilize their speed up front. I think the kids can get experience, and will learn from the experience of someone like Boyle. I don't think Smith or DK are far enough along that they can manage their own pairing, and if you're throwing in two of Sproul, Marchenko, Ouellet, etc. that's what you're getting.

I actually think that defense does look good, aside from needing a bigger body or two. I agree that Boyle's long in the tooth, but his 36 points would have been good for 2nd in scoring on this team's defense. I disagree that Dan Boyle was never good to begin with - he was one of the better puck moving, offensive defenders in this league for several years. He was top 10 in defensive scoring year after year. Is he that guy anymore - absolutely not, but I believe that his 30-35 points, and experience can help this team.

I don't believe in the "contend or tank" mentality, because if this team showed one thing in their series with Boston it's that they need experience - playoff experience. It's not like the prospect cupboard is bare - the team needs to add some depth at center and perhaps a winger or two, but I'd say they're pretty solid on defense, in goal.

Personally, as long as the kids are getting experience, I could care less if this team has a few early round exits. You build from those experiences, and as you've said, Dats and Z aren't going to be around forever. Playoff experience allows you to shape your Nyquist, Sheahan, Jurco and Tatar - tanking does not.

Whoa, I'm not being clear. I DON'T(edit) think we should tank on purpose. And I don't think we would if we let Sproul play rather than sign Boyle. I just think we should live or die with the young kids in the lineup. If we make the playoffs great. If not, they have a year's worth of experience for the next year.

If signed, Boyle would only be a short term acquisition. I don't think we content in the short term, with or without Boyle. Since we're not going to contend either way, I'd rather have a kid get experience because that WILL help us in the long run. And if, in the short term, we don't finish as high as we might with Boyle...so be it, I'll take the high draft pick. I'm not saying be bad on purpose, I'm saying if you've already conceded you aren't winning next year, why not let a part of your future get better rather than bring in someone who you know A) won't help you win a Cup, and B) won't be on your team for more than a couple years.

The only way I'd be in favor of signing Boyle is if we were a really good team and that was the one thing we needed to put us over the top. It isn't. So I don't see what it would accomplish.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously, there's a little bit of tongue in cheek skepticism going on when I say these guys are losers. BUT teams much better than ours (e.g. San Jose, Pittsburgh, Boston) have all failed recently, despite having Boyle and Iginla. If we signed them both, AND Alfie, we'd still lose in the playoffs (provided we even made it). I don't see the point of signing these guys if they can't help us short AND long term, because in the short term we're not competing for a Cup, and in the long term they'll be retired.

Give me Niskanen and Kesler, or give me the kids. Boyle and/ Iginla and/or Alfie don't do anything except maybe prolong the inevitable playoff loss, and worsen our draft position.

Edit: We need young help. And I don't mean the kids. We need players who are in their primes or just hitting their primes (26-30). Because whether we like it or not, Dats and Z can't carry us to a Cup anymore. And no matter how bad we want it to be so, those two are never going to be 29-30 years old again.

Unfortunetly guys in there prime who are top end nhl players aren't ufa's anymore and I'm not willing to part with mantha mrazek and other top end draft picks to get one ... It sucks cause it would be absolutely amazing if we had say Tavares with datsyuk and zetterberg now but it is what it is

We're still a good team and I still think pavel and hank when healthy can carry us in the playoffs next few years , we obviously need our depth guys to help out and the kids to keep getting better , if nyquist shows up game 1 till game 82 and produces say 35-40 goals and can continue to get better in the playoffs we might have our future hank/pav

And depending if mantha makes the team if we put him with pavel I do think he has the talent to get 30 goals and be a Calder winner

This year was a disappointment but I do think injuries had a part ... I do think were still cup contenders and we will be much much better next season

Whoa, I'm not being clear. I think we should tank on purpose. And I don't think we would if we let Sproul play rather than sign Boyle. I just think we should live or die with the young kids in the lineup. If we make the playoffs great. If not, they have a year's worth of experience for the next year.

If signed, Boyle would only be a short term acquisition. I don't think we content in the short term, with or without Boyle. Since we're not going to contend either way, I'd rather have a kid get experience because that WILL help us in the long run. And if, in the short term, we don't finish as high as we might with Boyle...so be it, I'll take the high draft pick. I'm not saying be bad on purpose, I'm saying if you've already conceded you aren't winning next year, why not let a part of your future get better rather than bring in someone who you know A) won't help you win a Cup, and B) won't be on your team for more than a couple years.

The only way I'd be in favor of signing Boyle is if we were a really good team and that was the one thing we needed to put us over the top. It isn't. So I don't see what it would accomplish.

I do think we can still contend in the east .... Injuries had a big part in us just getting in and pav and hank weren't 100% in the playoffs .... We fix up our d a bit and we'd be a lot better than this season

Boyle as a veteran depth dman who can help the ppl .... Ouellet a rookie is way better than lashoff IMO , marchenko another rookie but who played with men in Russia I think will be better and make the safer players than kindl.

Sure it sucks having 2 rookies but if we rotate them in or put them with a veteran dman each game it'll help

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, this is feasible. But it's not a contender. And if we're not going to contend either way, I'd rather the kid get the experience, the team get a higher draft pick, and Dan Boyle go someplace else.

What would signing him accomplish?

Kronwall, Smith, Ericsson, Dekeyser, Boyle, and kids is still not a very good defense. So why waste the money and keep a deserving kid from getting experience? Who knows, a kid might surprise you. God knows nobody thought Sheahan or Jurco were ready until they were given a chance. You know who definitely isn't going to surprise you though? Dan Boyle. He's just going to be a less good version of his old self (which wasn't all that great to begin with).

Agreed.

I don't want another 34 yr plus old player/s looking for an easy 'payday' with Detroit.

I know little of our prospects in GR, but some sound quite appealing, and I for one would love to see these kids get an opportunity (especially on D - like Sproul).

Lets be honest - we're nowhere near a Cup contending team, and adding these old salty vets won't bring us any closer...We need to see what our youth has to offer, and go from there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoa, I'm not being clear. I DON'T(edit) think we should tank on purpose. And I don't think we would if we let Sproul play rather than sign Boyle. I just think we should live or die with the young kids in the lineup. If we make the playoffs great. If not, they have a year's worth of experience for the next year.

The only way I'd be in favor of signing Boyle is if we were a really good team and that was the one thing we needed to put us over the top. It isn't. So I don't see what it would accomplish.

Fair enough. Perhaps I misread it, but I just say it as, "contend or s*** the bed with the prospects in the line-up". Again, I'm not saying it's Boyle or Sproul, I'm saying it's Boyle AND Sproul. I'm looking at vet-prospect/young player combinations. Kronwall-Smith, DeKeyser-Boyle, Ericsson-Sproul. One of Kindl or Lashoff can be moved or waived. Neither factors in on the future of this team's blueline.

I think there's a big difference between regular season experience, and playoff experience. This year kind of showed that - those kids helped this team into the post-season and then looked like deer in the headlights when they got there. I think the younger guys need that post-season experience, and I think this team has the potential to be better than last season's team. I don't think we have to live or die with the kids in the line-up, because I think that's how you deflate some of them. I think that's where they can look to a guy who has experience to calm them down, and follow his example.

I guess this is where we differ in our opinion on what Boyle would bring. I think he helps this team get into the post-season/boosts the PP, I think he helps guys like Smith, Sproul and Marchenko learn the ropes on the PP a bit better, and I think he helps DeKeyser develop into a more stable defender who, in two season when the kids are really ready, will be able to manage his OWN pairing with a younger player. I don't think the guy is the missing piece, but I do think he could have a positive impact on this team's future blueliners, and ease their transition into becoming responsible, reliable defenders in their own right.

Dabura likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like I said in the Boyle thread, we can add Boyle/Niskanen and still give a Griffin a spot.

Kronwall Smith

DeKeyser Boyle

Ericsson Sproul

I'm really not understanding this "We must live or die by our youth!" mindset. It's not imperative that Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Backman, Jensen, and Almqvist all get as much NHL ice time as humanly possible next season. AHL experience is extremely valuable. And we all know there'll be injuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, there's a pretty big difference between a Cleary/Samuelsson/Bertuzzi and a Boyle. Boyle would, in theory, be more along the lines of an Alfredsson. And if he doesn't work out the way we'd hoped? Oh noes, we're stuck with Dan Boyle playing limited minutes for a couple seasons! Worst. Blue line. Ever.

Most of our D prospects are gonna be traded anyway. We're only gonna have room for one or two, maybe three. That's true whether we sign Boyle or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we need to trade for Kesler and Edler.

Considering what it would cost to get them vs what they bring, I think there are better options out there.

Edler might be worth going for considering he's coming off a disaster of a season and his value is at an all time low, but I wouldn't even inquire about Kesler.

They'll want a ton for him and he's not worth any of the prospects the Canucks would want for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This little debate brings up the question that none of us know the answer to. What is the RW's goal for 2014/15? Make the PO's and keep the streak alive OR win the Stanley Cup? With the talent we already have we can do the first-make the playoffs. yes it would be a dog fight all year-just like the past couple, but we can do it. Now if the goal is to win the SC we need some major upgrades.

Now back to Boyle. Is he a major upgrade that is needed to contend for a SC? No. Since we already have the talent to contend for the PO's, I just don't see the need to bring him in. As others have said, if the choice is playing youth or aged vets, give me the youth if making the PO's is the goal. If the SC is the goal, then we need to move some youth for proven stars and sign a top UFA or 2.

I am fine with either option BTW. What I hate is half steps that really don't put us on either path.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they're going to go balls out to win one more cup for Mr. I. and the vets, that means trading a lot of the youth many fans don't want them to trade. They're not going to get good players for Emmerton, Almquist, Callahan, Kindl, and maybe throw in Pulk or a second rounder if you need to. It's going to take several of Jurco, Sproul, Tatar, Nyquist, Ouellet, Marchenko, and Mantha, as well as a few of the second tier guys and some high draft picks if you're going to bring in the two or three high end players that the team needs to put themselves at legit contender status.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see Tatar packaged for Buff and than Kenny going after Niskanen/Boyle, so it will give us something like :

Z - Dats - *Buff*

Franzen - Weiss - Nyquist

Jurco - She - Pulks

Abdelkader - Helm - Callahan/LG

Kronwall - Smith

DeKe - Niskanen/Boyle

E - Ouellete/Marchenko

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see Tatar packaged for Buff and than Kenny going after Niskanen/Boyle, so it will give us something like :

Z - Dats - *Buff*

Franzen - Weiss - Nyquist

Jurco - She - Pulks

Abdelkader - Helm - Callahan/LG

Kronwall - Smith

DeKe - Niskanen/Boyle

E - Ouellete/Marchenko

You "can" see it, or you "want to" see it. Because moving a smallish european skilled player for Dustin Byfuglien isn't the kind of move Holland would make at all. I don't know why you'd think that was a probable roster move, regardless of how you felt about it personally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the defense improves I can definitely see us being contenders. You guys forget that we are also getting back a healthy Stephen Weiss. Guys gonnabe good for around 50 points. I really think that mantha should be on this team riding shotgun withd and z. Add Boyle, zidlicky, or niskanen and I can see us getting out of the easy for sure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why do some want Boyle? the guy is on the decline, he posted the worst +- on the Sharks D last year he'll be 38 by the start of the

coming season and there's a reason that San Jose are letting him go, so why take on other teams not wanted?

Niskanen has had 2 good season's in his NHL stint. His first year in Dallas and his last one in Pittsburgh, which happens to be his contract year.

He's a R/H shot and fairly young at 27 with almost 500 reg games under his belt. He is not the #1 guy that the Wings seek. Id say a #2/3 at the

most and we have those within the organisation.

Trading is the only way we'll get a #1 D guy this year and next years (2015) UFA list doesn't offer much either. I doubt very much that Kenny will

be looking at a trade for a big name player, but the guys that he should look at Weber, Keith, Pietrangelo, etc will be too dear for him.

A vet player thats an upgrade on Quincey would be the way to go on a year maybe 2 at max deal and let the rookie's fight it out for the 6/7

spots. Id have no problem letting Marchenko come up full time.

UFA's: Tom Gilbert, Nikita Nikitin, Anton Stralman, and maybe Ron Hainsey would be

Kronwall DeKeyser

Smith Nikitin

Ericsson Marchenko

Kindl/Lashoff whoever isnt traded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why do some want Boyle? the guy is on the decline, he posted the worst +- on the Sharks D last year he'll be 38 by the start of the

coming season and there's a reason that San Jose are letting him go, so why take on other teams not wanted?

Niskanen has had 2 good season's in his NHL stint. His first year in Dallas and his last one in Pittsburgh, which happens to be his contract year.

He's a R/H shot and fairly young at 27 with almost 500 reg games under his belt. He is not the #1 guy that the Wings seek. Id say a #2/3 at the

most and we have those within the organisation.

Trading is the only way we'll get a #1 D guy this year and next years (2015) UFA list doesn't offer much either. I doubt very much that Kenny will

be looking at a trade for a big name player, but the guys that he should look at Weber, Keith, Pietrangelo, etc will be too dear for him.

A vet player thats an upgrade on Quincey would be the way to go on a year maybe 2 at max deal and let the rookie's fight it out for the 6/7

spots. Id have no problem letting Marchenko come up full time.

UFA's: Tom Gilbert, Nikita Nikitin, Anton Stralman, and maybe Ron Hainsey would be

Kronwall DeKeyser

Smith Nikitin

Ericsson Marchenko

Kindl/Lashoff whoever isnt traded.

You don't want Boyle, who in his worst year he still had more points than any of those guys at the bottom have ever had in their careers. Other than maybe Gilbert I wouldn't want any of those guys. Stralman has never played a full season and only came close once. The other guys don't put up much for points either. I'd rather go with kids if we're gonna have stats that low, at least they'd be cheaper. I just don't see how any of those guys would make us a better team. Niskanen may not be a number one but I'd rather have a bunch of 2's and 3's than a bunch of 3's and 4's.

Dominator2005 and Nev like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You "can" see it, or you "want to" see it. Because moving a smallish european skilled player for Dustin Byfuglien isn't the kind of move Holland would make at all. I don't know why you'd think that was a probable roster move, regardless of how you felt about it personally.

Kenny already traded high prospect in Jarnkrok for nothing... right?

Kenny offered Nyquist, Smith and 1st (Mantha) for Edler... right?

Now regarding Buff it's been speculated over a year that he's available. Khan, Savage and Puckdaddy identified him as a potential target since he can play Def and Forward.

I don't think that Nyquist will be traded, they seems to like Pulks... but again it's my opinion and if you don't agree it's fine...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now