Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

[wings4thecup06 504]

You realize you just talked yourself out of making any trades. To get you have to give. Other teams are not going to trade us quality players for our crap. Now, where do we have extra bodies? I keep one of Helm and Glendening-they are the same guy. Helm would be who i move because he has more trade value. Andersson can be moved but he is a throw in piece. Tatar, Pulkinnen, Nyquist are all very similar in skill and value. 1 maybe 2 of them can be moved in the right deals.

That means we have Helm, say tatar, Pulkinnen, Andersson, Ferraro, Kindl, and Almqvist to make 1 or 2 deals with.

I didn't object to trading some guys in GR with potential who aren't throw ins - say Pulkkinen, and we've got tremendous D depth in GR that we could trade also. Obviously you have to give to get, hence why I said if I had to trade one of Nyquist or Tatar, it'd probably be Gus at this point.

Talking trade with KH involved just makes me nervous at this point

[Dabura 12,207]

Because sadly, aside from some fancy individual stats, adding a guy like Joe Thornton isn't going to help us. We don't have the team, system, coach, or philosophy to maximize his incredible talent.

I think you're reaching, kip. But, to be honest, you're kind of confusing me, so...I dunno.

At the end of the day, I think we're two or three impact players away from legitimate contention. To me, that's a talent problem more than anything else. We know the kind of team we'd like to be. We know the kind of game we'd like to play. We know the systems we'd like to use to great success. We just don't have the talent pool and depth chart needed to make it all work and translate it into a deep run. (Then again, the East is definitely weak, and we really didn't get a fair crack at it this season.) I'm not saying we should add anyone based on talent alone. I'm just saying our top six isn't a legitimate top six and our top four isn't a legitimate top four and that's what's really holding us back.

[wings_fanatic 677]

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Alfie

Nyquist- Thorton- Cammalari

Jurco- Weiss- Tatar

Abby- Helm- Glendening

Kronwall- Smith

Dekeyser- Boyle

Ericsson- Oulette/ Sproul

For Thorton we trade: Franzen, Sheahan, Kindl and a 1st (or something like that)

I think that would be an extremely deep roster and, barring injuries (the hockey gods owe us a healthy season!) then that is a cup contending team.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I'm just saying our top six isn't a legitimate top six and our top four isn't a legitimate top four and that's what's really holding us back.

I understand that, and I agree. I'm saying that just because a guy's been a legit top sixer on another team, and he's available, doesn't mean we should pursue him. Thornton is awesome, but he's most effective playing a half-ice, power game. A game we don't play. So why give up the assets to get a guy who isn't a fit for our system and whose production will likely suffer for it?

As far as my comments about an identity crisis...I agree with you, we don't have the skill to play European style puck possession hockey anymore. But even if we went out a got it, I'm not sure it will work. Even the best "skill teams" in the league (Chicago, NYR) are considerably more gritty than we are. I think it would be foolish to try and change our organization into Boston's. But I think it would be equally foolish to try and be a throwback 2008 pure skill team too. Because no matter who we sign or draft we don't have a Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Fedorov, Yzerman, (or Toew, Kane, Hossa, Sharp) type guy coming. So we'd better not hang our hat on a style of play that requires that level of skill because at long last we don't two or three of the best players on earth anymore. Better to shift to a style of play and roster that reflects that reality and can win with a little more grit and a little less skill. And to do so we need guys like Kesler, O'Reilly, Umberger and not Perron, Richards, or Thornton.

That's what I'm saying.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Glendening and Helm have the same value??

Pulkkinen is about to replace Jurco??

Ummm no.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

The problem here is, that the needed talent is not available or we don't have the assets - unless we overpay ridiculously - to bring them in. So the options aren't really much, either play a style that leads to more with less or try playing a style for which we don't have the horses for. To me option 1 would be the better one, but that means our front office has to role up their sleeves and not only continue to draft bigger, grittier players they also have to get active in free agency, trade deadline and ...

Are guys like Gazdic, Orr, SThornton top players ? For sure not but they bring energy and smaller, younger players are playing heavier if they feel that there is someone who is going to protect them and provide some sort of energy. To be honest I would love having a fourth liner like DJ King the guy can play, is an SOB to play against and is willing to throw down with almost everyone in the league. If we can round out our bottom 6 with some heavier dudes then you don't need so much size for your top 6 but the point is, size and a heavier game is needed somewhere in the lineup, heck even the overloaded Blackhawks have Bickle and Bolland to play that bigger type of game. I'm not saying we should build the whole roster on size but our problem is, we don't have size in the top nor the bottom 6 NOR on defense. Sure, having a guy like Lidström running our powerplay did cope over a lot of things but now we have to deal with the reality and find a way to still bring it while our two superstars are still here.

I really can't wait till Athensiou, Mantha and McKee are ready to make the jump to the big club they are going to provide some size and will create room with their sheer power - especially McKee. Personally I want Niskanen for the simple fact that Kronwall then could go back to bring his Kronwalling out of nearly retirement again and Niskanen would run the powerplay.

Look at the Blue Jackets they aren't the most talented team in the world but boy do they work hard and they bring a heavy game their opponents have to work hard especially in Columbus if they expect to get some points out of there it's really amazing what Kekailinen and Davidson have accomplished there.

Sure, we can't go 180 degrees in the different direction but at least we can try to mold this team into something that can have more success with less talent on the team.

Edited June 22, 2014 by frankgrimes

[Guest DeGraa55]

Glendening and Helm have the same value??

Ummm no.

Where was that said?

[Richdg 267]

Glendening and Helm have the same value??

Pulkkinen is about to replace Jurco??

Ummm no.

no one said that. I said they are the same player, which they are. Both a small fast checking line C's. I said very clearly that I trade Helm because he has MORE value. read before you type.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

The problem here is, that the needed talent is not available or we don't have the assets - unless we overpay ridiculously - to bring them in. So the options aren't really much, either play a style that leads to more with less or try playing a style for which we don't have the horses for. To me option 1 would be the better one, but that means our front office has to role up their sleeves and not only continue to draft bigger, grittier players they also have to get active in free agency, trade deadline and ...

Are guys like Gazdic, Orr, SThornton top players ? For sure not but they bring energy and smaller, younger players are playing heavier if they feel that there is someone who is going to protect them and provide some sort of energy. To be honest I would love having a fourth liner like DJ King the guy can play, is an SOB to play against and is willing to throw down with almost everyone in the league. If we can round out our bottom 6 with some heavier dudes then you don't need so much size for your top 6 but the point is, size and a heavier game is needed somewhere in the lineup, heck even the overloaded Blackhawks have Bickle and Bolland to play that bigger type of game. I'm not saying we should build the whole roster on size but our problem is, we don't have size in the top nor the bottom 6 NOR on defense. Sure, having a guy like Lidström running our powerplay did cope over a lot of things but now we have to deal with the reality and find a way to still bring it while our two superstars are still here.

I really can't wait till Athensiou, Mantha and McKee are ready to make the jump to the big club they are going to provide some size and will create room with their sheer power - especially McKee. Personally I want Niskanen for the simple fact that Kronwall then could go back to bring his Kronwalling out of nearly retirement again and Niskanen would run the powerplay.

Look at the Blue Jackets they aren't the most talented team in the world but boy do they work hard and they bring a heavy game their opponents have to work hard especially in Columbus if they expect to get some points out of there it's really amazing what Kekailinen and Davidson have accomplished there.

Sure, we can't go 180 degrees in the different direction but at least we can try to mold this team into something that can have more success with less talent on the team.

You really seem to like Gazdic eh? I see you bring him up almost every day. Can you maybe tell me a little about him? I don't know much about this player.

[Dominator2005 558]

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Alfie

Nyquist- Thorton- Cammalari

Jurco- Weiss- Tatar

Abby- Helm- Glendening

Kronwall- Smith

Dekeyser- Boyle

Ericsson- Oulette/ Sproul

For Thorton we trade: Franzen, Sheahan, Kindl and a 1st (or something like that)

I think that would be an extremely deep roster and, barring injuries (the hockey gods owe us a healthy season!) then that is a cup contending team.

Cammy is exactly what this team needs another small and soft "top" six forward. We need to get DEF upgrade and bigger/tougher players.

You really seem to like Gazdic eh? I see you bring him up almost every day. Can you maybe tell me a little about him? I don't know much about this player.

Gazdic can fight (watch his fights on hockeyfights.com) and can hit. Very nice fit on out 4th line.

[wings4thecup06 504]

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Alfie

Nyquist- Thorton- Cammalari

Jurco- Weiss- Tatar

Abby- Helm- Glendening

Kronwall- Smith

Dekeyser- Boyle

Ericsson- Oulette/ Sproul

For Thorton we trade: Franzen, Sheahan, Kindl and a 1st (or something like that)

I think that would be an extremely deep roster and, barring injuries (the hockey gods owe us a healthy season!) then that is a cup contending team.

2 problems with this:

1) You've traded away one of our best young center prospects who has size, skill and a physical element to his game

2) Cammalleri is not what we need. A small, skilled guy, whom we have plenty of. Weiss, Tatar, Nyquist can more than fill that role.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Glendening and Helm have the same value??

Pulkkinen is about to replace Jurco??

Ummm no.

no one said that. I said they are the same player, which they are. Both a small fast checking line C's. I said very clearly that I trade Helm because he has MORE value. read before you type.

Helm is one of the best 3rd line centers in the NHL. Glendening is a border line NHL player. That's like saying Lucic is like Shanahan because they're both big wingers.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

You really seem to like Gazdic eh? I see you bring him up almost every day. Can you maybe tell me a little about him? I don't know much about this player.

24 years old, 210 lbs, hardest shot on the Edmonton Oilers, gritty pain to play against SOB on the fourth line. Guy took on that gargantuan man Bordelaus and landed a serious serious bomb. He is basically a 14 year younger version of Shawn Thornton.

[Shinzaki 72]

Jurco is small? He's 6-2" and close to 200lbs as a 21 year old....by the time he's 25 he should be 210-215Lbs at least.

I'd rather trade Pavel and Hank for youth and picks than trade youth for a declining player like Thornton.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Glendening and Helm have the same value??

Pulkkinen is about to replace Jurco??

Ummm no.

Im 95% sure He's a troll, don't feed him.

[Richdg 267]

DD, go back and read what I am/was talking about. We are talking about what we can use to make trades. On our team at this moument in time, Helm and Glendening are redundant. Both are 4th line C's if everyone is healthy. Our current C depth is: Datsyuk 1, Weiss 2, Sheahan 3, Helm/Glendening 4. We don't need both of them. We need other pieces for the top 6 or a top 4 Dman. You have to give something to get those type of players. Which has more value? helm does. They are both very good defensively, neither scores much, both are sub 50% FO guys. helm is also injury prone. In another year he is going to be up for a new contract. Best guess is going to be 3 million per year. On the flip side Glendening is already signed for 3 more seasons at .65 million per.

if Helm, tatar, and Kindl can get you a yandle or a kesler, we are a much better team. if you swap out helm for Glendening, we don't have enough value for either. In the end, that is the point.

[Shaman 713]

Im 95% sure He's a troll, don't feed him.

Actually I am not, look at Pulkkinen's production in the playoffs and in his first season in the AHL.

Jurco's AHL rookie season:

GP G A P

74 14 14 28

Pulkkinen's

GP G A P

71 31 28 59

Pulk's scored 2x the points,in less games in his first year in the AHL. He's also a right handed shot, and a pure goal scorer.

AHL Totals:

Jurco 106 games 60 points

Pulkkinen: 73 games 60 points

But you know us trolls, nearly 4,000 posts over over 7 years and donating to keep this site running.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Shaman

[Echolalia 2,961]

Actually I am not, look at Pulkkinen's production in the playoffs and in his first season in the AHL.

Jurco's AHL rookie season:

GP G A P

74 14 14 28

Pulkkinen's

GP G A P

71 31 28 59

Pulk's scored 2x the points,in less games in his first year in the AHL. He's also a right handed shot, and a pure goal scorer.

AHL Totals:

Jurco 106 games 60 points

Pulkkinen: 73 games 60 points

But you know us trolls, nearly 4,000 posts over over 7 years and donating to keep this site running.

With over seven years experience at LGW, I'm sure you've heard that success in the minor leagues doesn't necessarily correlate to the same level of success (or any at all) in the NHL. Jurco took a while to warm up to the AHL and Pulks did quite well integrating, which explains some of the discrepancy. Jurco spent a lot of time shifting the focus of his game from a dangler to someone who plays heavy and wears down on the opposition. Pulkinen has been able to rely on his cannon, which has made for a smoother transition for him, but I'm not convinced he's going to be that kind of force in the NHL. The players are bigger, faster, and there's less time and space to get that bomb off, and I'm expecting Pulkinen's adjustment to take longer and be more difficult than Jurco's with the transition to the NHL, because Jurco has already embraced the faster, heavier style of play, and I haven't seen much of it from Pulks yet.

But who knows how things will turn out. I wasn't calling Sheahan to steal a roster spot this year and look what happened.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Actually I am not, look at Pulkkinen's production in the playoffs and in his first season in the AHL.

Jurco's AHL rookie season:

GP G A P

74 14 14 28

Pulkkinen's

GP G A P

71 31 28 59

Pulk's scored 2x the points,in less games in his first year in the AHL. He's also a right handed shot, and a pure goal scorer.

AHL Totals:

Jurco 106 games 60 points

Pulkkinen: 73 games 60 points

But you know us trolls, nearly 4,000 posts over over 7 years and donating to keep this site running.

Obviously Points are everything.

Pulk has a good shot,

But that's about it.

Jurco has size, speed, grit, and amazing hands.

And sorry for thinking you're a troll,but saying Teemus going to pass jurco on the depth chart seems crazy.

Edited June 23, 2014 by jimmyemeryhunter

[T.Low 1,011]

Obviously Points are everything.

Pulk has a good shot,

But that's about it.

y.

I saw him plat two games vs Abbottsford heat this year: dude was everywhere .

[GybonB 21]

Obviously Points are everything.

Pulk has a good shot,

But that's about it.

Jurco has size, speed, grit, and amazing hands.

And sorry for thinking you're a troll,but saying Teemus going to pass jurco on the depth chart seems crazy.

Have you seen his highlights?

Have you seen my videos?

Yes i admit his forte is his slap shot,but its "stupid" and unprofessional

to claim he is nothing more.

He has tremendous wrist shot(quick release,heavy,accurate)

He is quick(as in end speed as in first strides)

He goes often to net(is always in the scoring area)

He can be physical and definitely hit/hip check...ask David Perron

He has tremendous work ethic (for example his +/- +28 with Grand Rapids regular+post combined

was team leading

That was just 5 examples how he is not just his big slap shot.

[GybonB 21]

I saw him plat two games vs Abbottsford heat this year: dude was everywhere .

here here, thanks T.Low

He was all over Heat anyways this season

totals vs Heat 5 goals 4 assists +/- +10, 34 shots on goal

[Shaman 713]

Obviously Points are everything.

Pulk has a good shot,

But that's about it.

Jurco has size, speed, grit, and amazing hands.

And sorry for thinking you're a troll,but saying Teemus going to pass jurco on the depth chart seems crazy.

Have you followed the development of either player at all? Pulks has been committed to improving any weakness in his game without question. He came into Grand Rapids being told to work on his defense, and he really became over the last year a very competent two way player, especially for a player that as you point out, use to be known for only his shot. Also if you didn't know this before his knee injury in his draft year he was projected as being the top 1 or 2 European draft picks and being taken in the top 5.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Yes. I've followed both pretty closely,...

Pulks looks slow and awkward skating to me.

And everyone's clamoring for bigger stronger players, which teemu is not.

[wings4thecup06 504]

Yes. I've followed both pretty closely,...

Pulks looks slow and awkward skating to me.

And everyone's clamoring for bigger stronger players, which teemu is not.

Hmm, while I think his game on the surface might seem one dimensional (I.e Slaphot) I haven't seen that myself. I mean, at this point I feel Jurco's game is more well rounded (considering how he's adapted to the physical side and shown a willingness to use his body). But I think that Teemu has good speed and he's got a nose for the net and that instinct for goal scoring that you just can't teach.

What I guess I'm getting at is, both are different players. Comparing them as the same player is worthless because they are not. Jurco looks like he might become a good two way forward with excellent size and a physical element to his game while Pulkkinen appears (at least right now) to be more offensively minded and a power play specialist who could pot 30 goals.