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GMRwings1983

What Happened to Nyquist?

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Beg to differ. Adding guys like Nyquist and tatar is much easier-as the wings have proven time and time again. We come up with guys like them every year. Finding guys like Lucic is the hardest thing to do and most costly to trade for. If you took the 2 of them and tried to get Lucic, Kopitar, backus, etc.... in a deal, the answer would be no everytime.

Backus? I wouldn't trade Emmerton for him. That guy is terrible!

Jeff_Backus_2007.jpg

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Few want to listen to this advice. They love Gus. They love Tatar. The Wings will never ice a decent team again if one of them is packaged for a bigger, gritty forward that can score.

Yes, that last sentence was sarcasm.

Am I the only one who remembers the manhandling the Devils gave to the Wings in '95? It looked and felt a lot like this series against the Bruins. Changes had to be made after '95, even though the team had reached the Finals. And we all know how that worked out long term.

You know we reached the 8th seed this year. Lost in the first round in 5 games?

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Backus? I wouldn't trade Emmerton for him. That guy is terrible!

Jeff_Backus_2007.jpg

Thank God you didn't link the pic where Backus' frilly undies were visible through his sweaty pants.

You know we reached the 8th seed this year. Lost in the first round in 5 games?

What's your point? I said the Wings need to get bigger and grittier, which will probably invovle trading one of Gus or Tatar. The Wings weren't afraid to make changes after a Finals appearance in '95. They sure as hell shouldn't be afraid to make them now.

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Guest Playmaker   
Guest Playmaker

The same thing that happened to Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc. It's a learning experience.

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I think a lot of it has to do with what I started getting at in my thread a couple weeks ago: Nyquist since Datsyuk's Return & Unnatural NHL Development

Nyquist had 2 assists for 2 points in 11 games once Datsyuk returned. I think when the big guy was back, he likely changed his approach to everything in his game. And I really do mean everything. I don't care how much teams can learn about a guy and work to shut him down, once Datsyuk came back, if anything, he should've at least had more room some of the time because you can't just ignore Datsyuk. And the guy was on such a tear for more than just a couple of weeks, that he only was able to muster 2 assists in 11 games once Datsyuk returned, playoffs and Boston's D or not, you've got to acknowledge that some of the synapses that were firing in his head that lead him to be successful while Datsyuk was gone started firing in a different way, absolutely not for the better. There's really no other logical explanation for such a complete drop off in production.

That said, as I said in my thread, I don't think there's anything wrong with Nyquist or a lot of our guys, but I think the adrenaline rush you have when you get called up from the minors to replace someone who's injured in the middle of the season can sometimes get you through a lot of the bumps in the road regular NHL guys have to learn to work through by simply growing as an NHL player. It can be like rocket fuel for some guys, Nyquist included in this case. So some of these guys come up and play at a really high level off of this adrenaline rush, and then when they're dropped back down to the minors or a major team dynamic changes like Datsyuk coming back, the flimsy nature of an adrenaline rush gets shaken, and suddenly you're not only changing your game or playing in a different role, you're struggling with a new mental battle of trying to match what you've now already done.

Expectations mount not just in your own mind, but among your team, your coaches, the media, the fans.

That's a lot for a young guy to take, and it's certainly not the kind of headache they need when they really should just be focusing on how to become a regular NHLer. That's a hard enough task for most guys, but when you tack on the expectations that come from these one-off mid-season surges, I think you stand to really derail a guys natural progress.

The ultimate point of my original thread was that clearly we have a lot more guys in GR that are ready for the NHL than we thought, but we can't expect them to just manifest the skills it takes to be an NHL regular in the middle of the season when they're just blown away by the excitement of finally playing in the NHL. I think we need to start bringing guys up a little bit earlier than we have and giving them time to adjust to being an NHL regular in a more normal lineup. This takes a lot of that early pressure off and allows a guy more time to grow into his skill set and develop mentally.

I admit, I could be way off on this, but the last 5-6 years, I've been paying more attention to this sort of thing and it's become more and more apparent as time's gone on that there might be something to it. We've seen a lot of guys come through our system, have their "flash in the pan" moments of brilliance at odd times, typically when playing in a role that they would not be in normally at an early stage in their career, and as they become NHL regulars, they end up struggling not only with general consistency, but more so with coming close to matching the performances they achieve when the stars aren't in the lineup. That is a mental struggle, because if you can dial it in in certain moments and not others, we're not talking about a physical or technical limitation, we're talking about self-imposed mental barriers that guys are putting up.

Again, while it's clearly a theory and one that may be very wrong, I think there might be a good chance that we might see more consistent and ultimately better long-term results from some of our more skilled players if they're allowed to do some of their ripening on the NHL level in a smaller role suitable to grow and learn in. They'd be used to playing in a lineup with the stars and vets, and they'd be used to the grind of the NHL and the typical ups and downs. It's just hard for me to imagine that not helping a player to develop a better mental game, while I can think of countless reasons why early success in unusual situations can set a guy up for failure and stifle the growth of their mental game.

And of course, the side-benefit I mentioned of less room for washed up mid-level guys that have mostly been disaster signings for awhile now. Big plus right there to my development suggestion...

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The same thing that happened to Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc. It's a learning experience.

No, not really at all.

Those guys had much more traditional developments heading into the NHL. They had normal rookie seasons where they were part of a team for the majority of the season. Yzerman and Federov started off at a seemingly much higher level (on the scoresheet at least) and stayed there, but it was also during a period in which scoring was much higher. Datsyuk and Zetterberg hard normal rookie seasons and started slower on the scoresheet, but they had time in the NHL to adjust to becoming not just NHL players, but stars and leaders.

But in any event, the NHL development of those four players you mentioned was absolutely nothing like what many of our younger skilled prospects like Nyquist have undergone. And as said at length above, I don't think the sort of rushed and overenthusiastic "development" is the kind of thing that leads to a strong mental game which is incredibly important. Expectations get artificially raised and a guy ends up doing too much battling in his mind while dealing with the pressure he feels from outsiders who expect him to be able to play like he did during an unusual circumstance all the time. I don't think it's healthy, and again, it's nothing like what the four players you mentioned went through.

Edited by gcom007

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No, not really at all.

Those guys had much more traditional developments heading into the NHL. They had normal rookie seasons where they were part of a team for the majority of the season. Yzerman and Federov started off at a seemingly much higher level (on the scoresheet at least) and stayed there, but it was also during a period in which scoring was much higher. Datsyuk and Zetterberg hard normal rookie seasons and started slower on the scoresheet, but they had time in the NHL to adjust to becoming not just NHL players, but stars and leaders.

But in any event, the NHL development of those four players you mentioned was absolutely nothing like what many of our younger skilled prospects like Nyquist have undergone. And as said at length above, I don't think the sort of rushed and overenthusiastic "development" is the kind of thing that leads to a strong mental game which is incredibly important. Expectations get artificially raised and a guy ends up doing too much battling in his mind while dealing with the pressure he feels from outsiders who expect him to be able to play like he did during an unusual circumstance all the time. I don't think it's healthy, and again, it's nothing like what the four players you mentioned went through.

What Playmaker was saying was that none of Stevie Y, Feds, Dats, and Z were immediately playoff performers and scorers right away when they entered the league. It took them a couple of years to development into that within the league.

You are comparing the development prior to being in the league, which, yes, was quite different for all those players. I don't buy the argument that Nyquist's development puts him in a place where he'll second guess himself more than the aforementioned players. When you say "Expectations get artificially raised and a guy ends up doing too much battling in his mind" I think that all players go through that. Gaining mental toughness is probably what made Stevie Y, Feds, Dats, and Z into playoff performers. And when you talk about facing raised expectations how about Yzerman who brought in to be a savior to our struggling franchise.

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The same thing that happened to Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc. It's a learning experience.

Obviously different eras but Yzerman produced at above a point per game pace for his first 5 postseasons. Fedorov was right around a ppg until his production exploded in 1995.

They definitely learned what it takes to go deep in the playoffs but both Stevie and Feds were scoring from the get go.

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I think a lot of it has to do with what I started getting at in my thread a couple weeks ago: Nyquist since Datsyuk's Return & Unnatural NHL Development

...

I think you're guilty of trying to construct an argument to fit a desired conclusion.

First, variations in production happen to almost every player. Nyquist earlier this year had a stretch of 1g in 18 games. He got hot, first playing with Zetterberg, stayed that way for a while then cooled off. Normal streakiness is a far more likely explanation than yours. That said, Datsyuk's return in addition to the team being in pretty good shape playoff-wise probably allowed him to relax a little, and may have played a part. But I don't think that has anything to do with development.

But that leads to my second point: The way Nyquist was handled this year was not planned, nor was it standard practice for the Wings. So your entire argument, even if it did explain his late-season slump, is moot. Normal procedure, judging by past prospects, would have put Nyquist on the roster to start the year. Likely in a 3rd or even 4th line role, like Tatar, but possibly in a supporting role in the top 6. Basically, the smaller, more suitable role you mention. That is what we normally do.

But injuries happen. When they do you don't really have any choice. If you start bringing guys up earlier, then when you have an emergency situation your call-ups are going to be younger. It'd be the exact same situation, just happening earlier in their development. The only thing really unnatural about Nyquist's development is the number of injuries we had to scorers. The way we handle our youth is not all that dissimilar to what most people suggest when they say we need to change what we're doing. Nor is it particularly different from the way the rest of the league does it. The biggest difference between us and the rest of the league has been our lack of high picks.

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I really think Nyquist was the least of this team's issues. He's a fresh face (in terms of NHL experience) and he struggled. As mentioned, guys like Pavs and Z struggled in the playoffs quite a bit in the past. I even remember people around here, and other RW fans I know personally questioning Pavs as a playoff performer, period.

He set the bar very high for himself - too high. And as far as Z bulking up, I swear when he did it impacted his game negatively (at least that's what I recall). He ended up looking slow throughout the beginning of the season. I think Gus could add some muscle, but his speed is what kills. It's a learning experience. The kid's a good player and not someone you should just move... just surround him with players who compliment his play and let him learn.

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Thank God you didn't link the pic where Backus' frilly undies were visible through his sweaty pants.

What's your point? I said the Wings need to get bigger and grittier, which will probably invovle trading one of Gus or Tatar. The Wings weren't afraid to make changes after a Finals appearance in '95. They sure as hell shouldn't be afraid to make them now.

Different person in charge now. Bowman traded a guy for looking at his daughter, he wasn't afraid to make changes. Holland wouldn't change his underwear if he got laid one time back in '08 while wearing them.

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he got on a hot streak and people decided he was the second coming.

he's simply not as good as everyone was saying.

For once I think I may have to agree with you.

Having his ice time drop along with different line mates, and above all - Boston Bruins in playoff mode pretty much shut him down along with the rest of the team.

Don't get me wrong - he could very well be a 30 plus goal player during the regular season, but 45 plus will be stretching it.

Beg to differ. Adding guys like Nyquist and tatar is much easier-as the wings have proven time and time again. We come up with guys like them every year. Finding guys like Lucic is the hardest thing to do and most costly to trade for. If you took the 2 of them and tried to get Lucic, Kopitar, backus, etc.... in a deal, the answer would be no everytime.

From what I've seen for a very long time is that Holland, and company tend to draft 'skill' guys, and shy away from the big guys with a penchant for the rough stuff.

Chances are - if the guy is 6'2", or taller and is drafted by the Wings - he's either playing in college, or somewhere in Europe...In other words - in a league where fighting, and rough play isn't tolerated.

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