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Richdg

So what do we have to trade?

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I see reimer going there eventually

I see him going there this summer, actually. (Provided they buy out Pavelec.)

Yeah but how do you feel about Brendan Smith?

Well, he's right about Smith being one of our better puck movers on the back end and one of our more promising young players. At the same time, we could really, really, really use a proven top-four defenseman. Kronwall isn't an ideal #1, Ericsson is a #3 or #4, DeKeyser is a #3, Smith is, at present, probably a #4. The talent on the farm means the future of our D corps looks bright, but I'd like to at least try to win another Cup with Datsyuk.

Smith Dekeyser Sproul Ouellet Marchenko Blackman Mrazek Helm Nyquist Tatar Jurco Mantha even guys like Kindl Pulkinen and Athanasiou have good trade value.

Right. (Not sarcasm.) We have plenty of attractive pieces.

It's also largely about the possible trade partner. The Flyers, for example, might like Lashoff or Kindl or Almqvist, and certainly they'd love one (or two!) of Sproul, Ouellet, Marchenko, Backman. Wayne Simmonds - exactly the kind of guy we need in the top six - probably isn't going anywhere, but I feel like we might have a better shot at him than one might think. (It goes without saying that one of Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco would be gone, but you have to give to get.)

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The questions with Smith are two fold. 1. He is poor defensively. 2. he is another lefty. Now one can be fixed, the other can't be. As I mentioned before, if I am putting together a trade for a guy like Carlson-6-3/215 RHed, year younger than smith, great shot blocker, and better offensively than Smith, then hell yes we do it! Same if we are packaging him for a guy like Lucic. No don't trade him for picks. That would be dumb. But to get quality you have to give up quality.

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In a word, Winnipeg.

100% correct. Winnipeg's biggest ??? is Pavelec. That guy is a Vezina candidate for like 5 games a year and then a team deflator the other 77. Howard would be a big upgrade. Then again, Mrazek likely would be too.

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100% correct. Winnipeg's biggest ??? is Pavelec. That guy is a Vezina candidate for like 5 games a year and then a team deflator the other 77. Howard would be a big upgrade. Then again, Mrazek likely would be too.

Correct. This is were as an example a smith+mrazek=bogo. Just as an example.

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Ideally you should always try to trade from a position of strength to fill a position of weakness.

Our strengths? Good young D prospects, and good young wingers (of the skilled but undersized variety). We have SEVEN young D-men knocking on the door right now for maybe 2 spots in the next 5 years. There isn't room for all of them, so we may as well flip them for something better. Same at wing, unless we buy out Franzen and Weiss, and Alfie retires, and Mantha is a bust, there is just no place for Pulkinnen.

Our biggest weakness is a top-4 RHD. There's a really interesting thread on HFBoards right now around trade proposals for a RHD to Detroit - unusually for HFBoards, its populated by sane fans of other teams making rational, reasoned proposals instead of the usual "Nyquist + Mantha + 1st for Edler" that wrecks the place. Some examples:

Cody Franson for 3rd
Tatar + Ouellet for B. Schenn + L. Schenn
Pulkkinen + Ouellet for L. Schenn
Tatar + Ouellet + pick for Bogosian
Wideman for 3rd + Jensen
Wideman for 3rd + Nestasil
Byfuglin for Tatar + Ouellet
Byfuglin for Tatar + 1st
Niskanens rights for 3rd
Gardiner for Tatar + Frk
Shattenkirk for Nyquist
Jensen for 2nd
Wideman + 2nd for Mitch Callahan + 1st

None of these break the bank and upgrade the team. To give one example - Tatar + Oullet for Byfuglin. The loss of Tatar is easily replaced by Jurco and Mantha. Losing Oullet only leaves us with Almquist, Backman, Marchenko, Sproul and Jensen - I mean, how will we cope with such a pitiful group of D prospects :rolleyes:

That one trade leaves us with something like

Jurco - Datsyuk - Alfie

Nyquist - Zetterberg - Franzen

Abdelkader - Sheahan - Mantha

Miller - Helm - Glendening

Weiss

Kronwall - Smith

DeKeyser - Byfuglin

Ericsson - Marchenko/Backman

Dabura and canadian wings fan like this

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I think Helm, Franzen and Howard could definitely get us some decent returns. I'm not a huge fan of Howard and I feel that if he couldn't get us out of the 2nd round with the likes of Raf, Lids, Stuart and Kronwall in his prime, he certainly isn't gonna do it with whomever we move forward with regarding our defense. I like Helm but I'll know we have a solid team if he plays mainly on our 4th line and our pk as usual. Franzen has worn out his welcome here. I'll never hate Mule cause we wouldn't have got our Cup without him but the Wings are going a different direction then where he is headed. Hope is not lost and I'll take a consistent goalie and a solid defenseman and some gritty, scoring wingers to make us tougher if these possibilities arise.

Edited by GoWings!

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the name of the thread can also be read as " What do we HAVE to trade?" Like, what do we have to trade in order to have enough roster spots for the players we have and aren't sending down and the players we need.

I think we HAVE to trade Andersson and Kindl at least. They aren't going to get us anything but a low draft pick or future considerations, but they have to go to make room. Ferraro, Callahan and Almqvist also need to be dealt with or dealt. I am not sure any of them clear waivers if they don't make the club.

We need upgrade's at Forward, D and G. Pretty much all around. The kids aren't going anywhere, so that means that 4-5 roster spots are taken. Jurco, Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan and Dekeyser will all be here next season and beyond. So the upgrade is going to have to come via trade, there aren't any UFA's out there that really are going to make this team overnight contenders... I hear what you are all saying about Moulson and Vanek, but I the money they are going to get is going to be too high for what all we need to accomplish. I am a fan of Stastny, but he already makes a ton and will get more. I think the trade route is the way to go. I think Kesler will be pursued. Pricey though. I still the the best upgrade we could ask for is Kesler and Edler via the trade market.

Goalie is a hair pulling dilemma. I agree that Howard is 99% here to stay (at least until Mrazek shows he is ready to take over.) But it would be nice to have the option to pursue Halak, Hiller or Miller. I also agree that is Howard couldn't get us out of the 2nd with Lids, Rafi and Stu, he is not going to get us out of the 1st on his own any time soon. There are no Lids, Rafi's or Stu's out there to sign, and even upgrading to Edler and Niskanen isn't going to allow Howard to make his mistakes and still let us advance. I am a firm believer we need an upgrade in that position, but if we are stuck with him, we need to upgrade the #2 guy with a player who is going to really push Howard to be better, if that is possible. I would take Vokoun, Naby or Bryz as a backup. Also Brian Elliot has become expendable in St. Louis, that is if Miller re-signs there.

UFA's - You all got to go. The only one I would like to see back is Legwand, but with the logjam up front and the need to upgrade the scoring, there just isn't room. If Weiss comes back 100% and returns to form, he should be just as effective centering Franzen and Nyquist as Legwand was. I would still welcome Legwand back though. Who knows, if a trade goes down, there just may be some room for him afterall. The rest, you all need to go. Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Alfie, Quincey and Monster....thanks, but enjoy the rest of your lives.

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UFA's - You all got to go. The only one I would like to see back is Legwand, but with the logjam up front and the need to upgrade the scoring, there just isn't room. If Weiss comes back 100% and returns to form, he should be just as effective centering Franzen and Nyquist as Legwand was. I would still welcome Legwand back though. Who knows, if a trade goes down, there just may be some room for him afterall. The rest, you all need to go. Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Alfie, Quincey and Monster....thanks, but enjoy the rest of your lives.

Unless we sign a bonafide top 6er, I'd like to see Alfie back. He had a good year and could have an even better one if our team is somewhat healthy.

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We all can and do have long lists of players that we would love to have playing for the RW's. Holland and Babcock have both talked about adding "top 6 forward" and a "RHed top 4 Dman". That of course is the easy part. The much harder part is figuring out who we can trade away, without completely gutting the team and our future.

So who can be used in trades?

The following can't be do to NTC/NMC: Datsyuk, Weiss, Kronwall, Ericsson, and Howard.

can't be moved do to sentimental reasons: Zetterberg.

UFA's and no value: bertuzzi, Sammy, Cleary, Legwand, Quincy, Alfie, and gus.

Now we can begin.

Forwards with some value: Helm, Abby, Miller, Nyquist, tatar, Sheahan, Franzen, Jurco, Glendening, Andersson, Pulkkinan, TooToo, Callahan, and ferraro.

Dmen with some value: Dekeyser, Smith, lashoff, Kindl, Ouellet, Sproul, marchenko, and backman.

G with value: Mrasek

minor/junior players: long list.

Now the debate begins. You need 14 forwards, 7 Dmen, and 2 G's on the NHL team. You need a few NHL ready prospects in the AHL in the event of injuries. 2-3 F 2 Dmen and a G in GR that can be called up should be enough-we hope.

So the extras;

helm and Glendening. Physically they are twins. both about 5-11/195. On the ice they are very similar. Helm a little faster, Glendening a little grittier. Both play the same position: checking line C. Glendening is 2 years younger and about 1.5 million cheaper. I would keep Glendening and use Helm in a trade to fill our 2 major holes.

Tatar and Pulkkinen. Again very similar players. both in the 5-10/190 range. Both are snipers. Same age. the only real difference is, Pulkkinen is Rhed and tatar is a lefty. Neither is big, both need to improve defensively, and both a good shooters. between the 2, tatar has more trade value because he has done it at the NHL level, Pulk still in the minors. keep Pulk and use tatar in a trade.

kindl. he struggled this year but has played better in the past. We have a ton of good young Dmen right on the verge of being ready. use him in trade, but this is a selling low year with Kindl.

Smith. Does he stay or go? I am fine with either. But you have to provide some value to get some value. In the right deal there isn't anything lost. if we are going after say Carlson to be the RHed Dman, then moving Smith is fine. after all Carlson is Rhed, proven, and a year younger than Smith. With Ouellet and backman a year or so away, this isn't a big risk in the right move.....

Mrasek. yes he looks like a guy that could be very good at the NHL level in a couple of years. But that also makes him a very valuable trade piece. We have a very good NHL G in Howard-who is signed long term. We have another good looking prospect behind Mrasek in Paterson. This means if we have to, in the right deal, we can in fact move him. In the grand scheme of things, what is more important to the team right now? A great G prospect or a great Dmen or Power forward?

Those 5 are our primary pieces that we can move in a trade without causing more holes to appear. yes the 2014 1st round pick can be added to the list, making 6 major trade pieces. we still then have filler like Callahan, Ferraro, Almqvist. That should be enough to make 2 nice deals.

Mrazek is our next goalie.

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Mrazek may be our next goalie, but that is 3 years or more down the road. I doubt Holland does much of anything. Which means another 3-5 years fighting to make the PO's and losing in the first.

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Mrazek may be our next goalie, but that is 3 years or more down the road. I doubt Holland does much of anything. Which means another 3-5 years fighting to make the PO's and losing in the first.

I believe that will be sooner rather than later.

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Mrazek got lit up a bit tonight in Texas in game one of round 2.

5-2 final.

No big deal just FYI.

Edited by rick zombo

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I would add Ericsson on the trade list also.

Smith is a good fit for Kronwall.

E is supposed to be physical... but he isn't.

Buff/Niskanen with DeKe, add a veteran physical def (à la Yemelin) to play with Marchenko and add someone like Matt Greene as a 7th def and that's a pretty much better DEF.

Forwards:

Z - Dats - Kassian/Wilson type (big, forechecking animal)

Franzen - Weiss - Nyquist

Jurco - She - Tatar (if not traded for Buff) Pulks

Abdelakader - Helm - Martin/Gazdic type

Callahan/LG

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I'd say Franzen's value is that of a bag of pucks but....

A 4 million forward that gets 41 pts in 54 games gets a bag of pucks? While we're at it let's trade for Crosby

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I would add Ericsson on the trade list also.

Smith is a good fit for Kronwall.

E is supposed to be physical... but he isn't.

Ericsson's actually stepped up his physical game. At the very least, he's our best shutdown guy (though, DeKeyser will be overtaking him soon) and definitely one of our better penalty killers. The big issue with him is we expect him and need him to basically be a 1B to Kronwall's 1A, which is ludicrous, as he's a second-pairing guy, if that. Of course, this is all moot, as - like I said - he's basically untouchable for the time being. If there's one thing Ken Holland loves above all else, it's his loyal homegrown success stories like Ericsson. Hence Ericsson's recent multi-year extension.

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Ericsson was never considered a huge hitter. People see big guy and think big hits. The reality is that bigger guys don't usually have to throw big hits to be effective so they don't learn to play like that. Look at some of the mist dangerous hitters, most aren't really big.

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Ericsson is nasty along the boards, but I'll agree with Dickie (first?) that he's not a big open ice hitter. However, to say he isn't physical (as someone else implied) is untrue. Exhibit A: Last year's Chicago series. See below:

NitzGuy likes this

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Dabura, the links you posted the other day show that Dekeyser is already our best defensive Dman. it also shows that both Kronwall and ericsson are second pair guys defensively.

yes E and Kronwall will throw a big hit once and a while which is fine. But neither do it much. Of course they are on the opposite ends of the size spectrum. But from a Dman I am ok with 1 hit per game as an average. Which both do. All of our Dmen are in that range for hits. It is at the forward spot that I like to see guys that pound on the other teams D. Guys like Martin who averages 5 hits per game.


Now back to the point. We have some pieces we can in fact move. If we add a UFA or 2, that gives us more pieces to move. We have plenty of cap space for us to do so, will Holland act? No idea-but not betting on it......

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Dabura, the links you posted the other day show that Dekeyser is already our best defensive Dman. it also shows that both Kronwall and ericsson are second pair guys defensively.

Well, firstly, I guess I did contradict myself a little. (If Ericsson's a #4 and DeKeyser's a #3, well...) Basically, I give Ericsson a slight edge because of his experience. I think over the course of the 2014-15 campaign we're going to see DeKeyser become our best defensive defenseman - but, at present, I rate Ericsson a bit higher. We really, really, really, really, really, really, really missed him against the Bruins.

The second thing - you say "defensively." Kronwall may not be our best defenseman in the d-zone (debatable), but, all things considered, he's by far our best and most valuable defenseman. He's not an ideal #1, but as things currently stand, he is our blue line.

And that's on Ken Holland.

You don't lose Lidstrom and Rafalski and then make excuses about how gosh darn hard it is to get a top-end NHL defenseman, sitting on your hands for 3+ years because "The way you win is you build from within." Sure, building from within is essential, but getting a top-end defenseman and building from within don't have to be mutually exclusive. Case in point, we could move two of our top defense prospects for a top-pairing guy and still have two very good defense prospects remaining. Four very good prospects (when we only have room for two, realistically) vs. two very good prospects and a top-pairing NHL defenseman? I'd take the latter. But then, I wouldn't replace Lidstrom and Rafalski with Quincey and Colaiacovo. I guess that's why I'm not an NHL GM. *hangs head in shame*

But I digress.[/weekly rant]

My perfect offseason brings in two top-four defenseman, one a signing and the other an acquisition. One might call that overkill, but I call it trying to contend for the Cup right now because we're the Red Wings. I like Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, and Backman, but I also like John Carlson. The key is, Carlson is a #1 or #2 in this league, whereas there's no guarantee that any of the aformentioned Griffins will ever be that good. And even if we knew one or two of them would be that good, we could add a guy who's that good right now or we could wait a few years and let our core get that much older and then Sproul is that good but Datsyuk is gone and so is Zetterberg's back.

Because I know someone's going to say, "But wait, I thought you hate the Jarnkrok deal. What's the difference?" - the difference is that our return for Jarnkrok (and a second-round pick) was 33-year-old rental David Legwand. John Carlson - as you've mentioned - is younger than Brendan Smith and already on Kronwall's level, more or less. Legwand vs. Carlson.

Of course, I dunno that any package from any team could get the Caps to move Carlson. But that's not the point. It doesn't have to be Carlson. It could be Yandle, or Byfuglien, or Ehrhoff, or Shattenkirk, or Josi, or Faulk - there are possibilities out there. I believe, with the young assets we have, there are deals that can be made. I don't believe Holland when he says "There really haven't been any options, so there's nothing much I can do about it. No one moves key players anymore."

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Suter is the only defensemen who is clearly better than Kronwall who has moved, and he went to the team willing and able to pay his BFF a ridiculous matching contract. Over $15 mil for Suter and Parise is not a good deal, especially when it runs through 2025. Weber was a RFA but Nashville wasn't going to lose him right after losing Suter.

So I guess my question is, how the f--- do you replace Lidstrom?

The answer is, you don't. You take the younger guys you've drafted, add Dekeyeser, and hope that e of them can grow into top 4 D to play with Kronwall. Ericsson and Dekeyser are 2nd pairing guys now, Dekeyser is getting better and Smith might be there next year. Then there are Sproul, Backman, Ouellet, Marchenko, and Jensen.

You can say "well, those types of guys would be moved for the right package," but the odds are that the right package would mean a ridiculous overpayment. They don't need a player bad enough to trade something like Tatar, Jurco, Sproul, Backman, and Mrazek to get him.

Edited by DickieDunn

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DD, yes we do. Anytime you can pick up PROVEN stars for prospects you are winning the trade. rentals not included of course. prospects are great, but they haven't proven anything yet and 2 out of 3 never will.

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