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Shaman

Regner: Next year could be Babcock's last

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If no coach in any sport had ever been offered money way outside the "norm," there would be some basis for suggesting it is unlikely to happen. But it has happened and in a free-market economy, it can happen again. $10M was a number I pulled out of the air; it could be $5M, it could be $3M, it could be one dollar more than MB is making now. Hell, it could be LESS than he is making now if the other job conditions were attractive to him. As long as he has the potential to go to free agency, there is the potential he could go elsewhere, regardless of how much he loves hunting, water-skiing, etc.

As for calling someone out for speculating, I'm well aware that this entire thread (hell, this and every sports fan forum) is based on conjecture and speculation. If it is offensive to say a statement that begins with "the fact is" but has no verifiable facts is conjecture, I guess I am guilty.

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If no coach in any sport had ever been offered money way outside the "norm," there would be some basis for suggesting it is unlikely to happen. But it has happened and in a free-market economy, it can happen again. $10M was a number I pulled out of the air; it could be $5M, it could be $3M, it could be one dollar more than MB is making now. Hell, it could be LESS than he is making now if the other job conditions were attractive to him. As long as he has the potential to go to free agency, there is the potential he could go elsewhere, regardless of how much he loves hunting, water-skiing, etc.

As for calling someone out for speculating, I'm well aware that this entire thread (hell, this and every sports fan forum) is based on conjecture and speculation. If it is offensive to say a statement that begins with "the fact is" but has no verifiable facts is conjecture, I guess I am guilty.

I was condemning you for calling the other guy out for speculating while (by your own admission) you were in the process of "pulling numbers out of the air". That's all. I agree we all speculate in this thread, but you're one of two people who call others out for doing it as if you yourself hadn't done the same thing.

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The difference is I have never prefaced any of my own speculation with "the fact is," which to me at least implies an element of objective truth. It's a trope that some people use to make their speculation sound more authoritative. Or it's a casually tossed off phrase that wasn't intended to mean anything in particular but could be interpreted in a way that was not intended.

Back to the matter at hand, I believe it is a fact that Babcock's contract has one year remaining -- he seems to have confirmed that to reporters, which adds credence to it being factually true (although I imagine no one on this forum has seen the actual contract). If it is factually true that he has one year remaining, it is also factually true that about a year from now, he will become a free agent unless he signs a new contract in the meantime. That's the factual basis for all of my posts on this subject, which have moved from that factual basis to speculation on what impact that pending free agency might have on the team.

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The difference is I have never prefaced any of my own speculation with "the fact is," which to me at least implies an element of objective truth. It's a trope that some people use to make their speculation sound more authoritative. Or it's a casually tossed off phrase that wasn't intended to mean anything in particular but could be interpreted in a way that was not intended.

Back to the matter at hand, I believe it is a fact that Babcock's contract has one year remaining -- he seems to have confirmed that to reporters, which adds credence to it being factually true (although I imagine no one on this forum has seen the actual contract). If it is factually true that he has one year remaining, it is also factually true that about a year from now, he will become a free agent unless he signs a new contract in the meantime. That's the factual basis for all of my posts on this subject, which have moved from that factual basis to speculation on what impact that pending free agency might have on the team.

I proved you wrong about the money. He may get more money elsewhere but I don't think money is a deal breaker for him, he knows he can make millions wherever he goes, so he is going to pick a place attractive to him for whichever personal reasons he has

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Euro_Twins, you are saying he may get more money elsewhere; so am I. I've also said he might take less money elsewhere if he likes other terms and conditions. You seem to be saying the same thing on that as well. We seem to be saying the same thing.

If you feel you "proved me wrong about the money," that's fine. I'm not sure what you mean by that, much less what the proof is, but it's fine. I continue to believe what I have said from the beginning -- as long as he has not signed a new contract with Detroit, I believe this will become a distraction to the team because fans and media will be talking him up for other jobs around the league.

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I don't want to give any credence to the idea that Babcock wants to leave. To me this a non-story. He's stated he's very happy here - we just wait to see if Holland wants him after next year.

But, as for the money argument - you forget that Gretzky was paid 8 million to coach Pheonix. They, of coarse, were paying for his name and the publicity that he brought to the franchise and it was a totally unique situation, but there definitely is no limit on what a team will offer for a coach. The Gretzky situation should be a good lesson against paying too much for a coach, though.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Babcock, whose salary is around $2 million, the highest in the league, has compiled an overall record with the Wings of 259-101-52 in the regular season, along the way becoming the first coach in NHL history to lead his team to four straight 50-victory seasons in the first four years. He's delivered two Presidents' trophies as the NHL's regular-season champion in 2006 and 2008, and was a finalist for the Jack Adams coach of the year award in 2008.

That article is from 2010, he could certainly be making more than $2M/year now - easily.

Won't let me copy the part about his salary or that he is the highest paid coach. But look through that article, it's the last paragraph

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/wings/2010-10-11-mike-babcock-extension_N.htm

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That article is from 2010, he could certainly be making more than $2M/year now - easily.

Umm no. That contract as well as nills were both signed in 2010 and go to the end of next season. It's the same contract he is on now.

And I believe Ken Hollands contract ends next season too unless he was extended

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I'd forgotten about this:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/41032-Campbell-Brent-Burns-trade-moves-Sharks-closer-to-Stanley-Cup.html

Specifically...

The moment Mike Babcock learned the San Jose Sharks had acquired defenseman Brent Burns, he instantly got the look of a guy who’s [sic] team just let one get away.

His Red Wings are looking for a defenseman to replace the retired Brian Rafalski, but it was the playoff rival Sharks who pried the talented Burns away from the Minnesota Wild in a blockbuster trade.

“They just hit a home run,” Babcock said of the Sharks. “That’s a gold medal pick. I’m pissed off.”

Maybe there's something to the notion that Babs isn't exactly thrilled with where things are at.

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That article is from 2010, he could certainly be making more than $2M/year now - easily.

Tortorella was making $2 million a year in Vancouver until he got fired, so who knows what an actual good coach would make. :P

FireCaptain likes this

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By everything Babcock has been saying it seems to me he is happy with the team, management, ownership and location leaving Holland without the stress of having to nail down an extension with Babcock and allowing him to focus on what is the truely important points of focus.... Sign our Free Agents and get the missing pieces on defense and at forward to give Babcock the tools he needs to take the team deep into the play offs. Babcock cannot provide health, he cannot provide a PP quarterback or a right handed shot from the point, he cannot be a consistent goal scorer nor can he be a second line center!! These are the most important points of focus for the team, the coach and the fans.

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If Torts is worth that Babcock should get about eleventy bajillion dollars a year.

Torts has just as many Stanley Cups and one more Jack Adams award than Babs :bad:

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Torts has just as many Stanley Cups and one more Jack Adams award than Babs :bad:

And has basically been the coach of underachieving teams ever since that Cup win.

I've called him the new Mike Keenan but that's actually an insult to Keenan.

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And has basically been the coach of underachieving teams ever since that Cup win.

I've called him the new Mike Keenan but that's actually an insult to Keenan.

I know, I'm being a smart ass. While I'm definitely not on the "Babcock's the Bestest Coach Eva!" bandwagon (not saying you are), I will happily admit he's a MUCH better coach that Torts. At the very least I can't imagine Babs calling someone a "jitter bug" and saying he "stinks". So there's that.

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Red Wings coach Mike Babcock on Hockey Night in Canada

“When you’ve been in a place nine years like I have, going into my 10th year, it becomes a mutual thing. You want to be someplace where they want you. If they don’t want you, you move on. I’m going to coach in the league for a long time yet, there’s going to be opportunities for me. I like what we’ve done in Detroit; we’ve rebuilt on the fly…I think we have a chance to be better next year and better in the future. So, I tell people all the time: I’ve got a good place to hunt, I’ve got a good place to water ski, my family’s happy, my youngest girl is finishing school next year so I’m free that way. But there’s no reason to move if you don’t have to move or if it doesn’t excite you to. I’ve always been a believer that the grass is greener right here at home as long as you fertilize and water.”

He is not going anywhere! No more Babcock leaving or being fired threads needed. Let the league of idiots have their fun dreaming but that is about all they will get. Babs is home here in Detroit! We did not have to have a long rebuilding process due to our scouting and farm system. Even this past year we could have completed as much as any had we been healthy enough. We add health, more experienced youth, less dead weight and another piece or 2 and we are right back in the thick with a very long bright future to go along with the rich history, best owner and a very good GM (even though I don't like all his moves, or lack of moves).

I doubt he's going anywhere real soon either, but I think you're giving the system a little too much credit on the rebuilding process front. The kids floundered in the playoffs, and if we were healthier, we might've just had an old lineup that couldn't get it done. And the reality is that Z's back is going to force him into a decline quicker than he would if he didn't have back issues. I'm not saying he won't be effective or a great leader, but he is at the very least unlikely to continue to produce at a high level as more time goes by.

And yes, you add health, get some more experience for the kids and less dead weight and we're in better shape for sure on some levels, but a lot of this stuff has been said each summer for 4-5 years now. Very little has been done to improve the roster outside of bringing up prospects that has worked, and that is a very clear fact at this point, not speculation. Until we see some real changes in the way Holland puts this team together, I still think we're ultimately in a slow decline. We will not be able to continue to compete at a playoff level as Dats and Z decline with our defense. Even if Jimmy bounces back from a rough year, our defense is far too often a huge liability and you can't expect your goalie to stop everything. Holland first and foremost has to make a real commitment to improving the defense. If another summer goes by and nothing on that front changes, something in management has to change.

That said, again, I don't think Babcock is eager to jump ship at all and I don't think it'll necessarily happen right away, but I think it's more than fair to infer that he wants to keep his options open for a reason. If he truly believed in how green his grass can be here in Detroit, he wouldn't flat out say that he's not going to sign an extension this summer, especially after Holland flat out said he wants to sign Babcock to an extension this summer. Clearly, it's not about money as Babcock is already one of if not the highest paid coach and Holland would beat any salary another team would throw at him. If it's not about money and he believes that this will continue to be a good place to be, why is he unwilling to talk about an extension?

Sure, there could be nothing to it, but I think there's likely to be something more to it if he's willing to flat out shut down the possibility of something the GM has expressed he wants. Add to that Holland's unwillingness to let Blashill go yet with Babcock's future not set in stone and at the very least, you have two parties that are covering their asses, obviously for some reason.

If Holland again is unable to make this team better and it's another season of struggling just to make the playoffs only to lose early on, it's hard to imagine Babcock won't be interested in at the very least hearing about what's out there. He still might not leave, even if he gets a great offer, as I don't think he's misleading anyone when he says he's happy here. But I don't see him continuing to coach weak teams who's only hope is squeaking into the playoffs. I think we're starting to see that the idea that anyone making the playoffs has a chance isn't is true as it seemed for a few years. Babcock wants to win, bottom line. He's loyal, but he knows full well that this isn't the only job he'll be able to get and he's made that clear several times recently, while also shooting down talks of an extension.

Dabura and WingsAlways like this

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I don't think we're being patient enough with our youngsters, the playoffs are tough on youngsters and Hank and Pav weren't great in the playoffs until like 06-07

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So, assuming you've had the same job since 2010 as well, have you received any raises since then?

I am guessing that he has as well.

Why are you arguing about this? It's not an unreasonable idea to think that he gets yearly raises.

Umm no. That contract as well as nills were both signed in 2010 and go to the end of next season. It's the same contract he is on now.
And I believe Ken Hollands contract ends next season too unless he was extended

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So, assuming you've had the same job since 2010 as well, have you received any raises since then?

I am guessing that he has as well.

Why are you arguing about this? It's not an unreasonable idea to think that he gets yearly raises.

I'm just assuming. Contracts like that are usually pretty set, hockey players don't get raises during their contract so I just assumed coaches don't either

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So, assuming you've had the same job since 2010 as well, have you received any raises since then?

I am guessing that he has as well.

Why are you arguing about this? It's not an unreasonable idea to think that he gets yearly raises.

I'm just assuming. Contracts like that are usually pretty set, hockey players don't get raises during their contract so I just assumed coaches don't either

Some contracts are set for the same every year some are front loaded and some are set for them to get a rase each year. That's why cap hit is average salary of the deal.

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Holland commented on some issues late Wed. evening at the conclusion of the Wings 3-day meeting. I don't have the link but check the Malik Report.

I have to admit I really don't get any good vibes from what he said. I sincerely hope I am totally off-target but I believe Holland and Babcock are at opposite ends of the direction spectrum and Babcock will not re-enlist after next year. He's done and as good as gone.

Holland said the Wings won't go after any "big names" in free agency but will listen to trade offers. Forget about a Top 4 D-man from the UFA market. Holland said the only UFA that definitely "out" is Sammuelsson. Almost all the forwards for next year are set (11-12 players), but still no word on Alfie. Six of the D-men for next year are set. I'm guessing Quincey is heading for Free Agency and the Wings will go with Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Kindl, Smith and Lashoff. The 7th (and maybe an 8th) D-man will come up from GR.

My gut tells me Babs wants one thing and Holland wants something different. Not sure who is at which end of the spectrum. If I had to guess I would lean toward the position that Babs wants experienced proven veterans and Holland wants to bring the Kids in and let them play. I wonder if getting Legwand was Babs' idea and Holland feels like he wasted resources for nothing.

For all I know it could be just the opposite, but something doesn't sit right with Holland's comments after this 3 day meeting compared to the remarks that we heard a few weeks ago. What do I know? Nothing, absolutely nothing. We'll wait and see.

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Thanks for the summary personally I'm already accepting the fact that this will be Babcocks last year and I don't blame him. This team went from the defacto class of the NHL to still contender, to behind the top pack to playoff contender..that's just not good enough for a proven winner like Babcock. He know hother teams ae going to pay him whatever he wants and he could coach some superstars in their prime sucks for us but this could be the road for him.

I STILL do not believe Holland will go into the next season with the current defense there is no ******* way,

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Holland commented on some issues late Wed. evening at the conclusion of the Wings 3-day meeting. I don't have the link but check the Malik Report.

I have to admit I really don't get any good vibes from what he said. I sincerely hope I am totally off-target but I believe Holland and Babcock are at opposite ends of the direction spectrum and Babcock will not re-enlist after next year. He's done and as good as gone.

Holland said the Wings won't go after any "big names" in free agency but will listen to trade offers. Forget about a Top 4 D-man from the UFA market. Holland said the only UFA that definitely "out" is Sammuelsson. Almost all the forwards for next year are set (11-12 players), but still no word on Alfie. Six of the D-men for next year are set. I'm guessing Quincey is heading for Free Agency and the Wings will go with Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Kindl, Smith and Lashoff. The 7th (and maybe an 8th) D-man will come up from GR.

My gut tells me Babs wants one thing and Holland wants something different. Not sure who is at which end of the spectrum. If I had to guess I would lean toward the position that Babs wants experienced proven veterans and Holland wants to bring the Kids in and let them play. I wonder if getting Legwand was Babs' idea and Holland feels like he wasted resources for nothing.

For all I know it could be just the opposite, but something doesn't sit right with Holland's comments after this 3 day meeting compared to the remarks that we heard a few weeks ago. What do I know? Nothing, absolutely nothing. We'll wait and see.

From the malik article: Holland didn't really say much of anything which isn't unusual.

And no he did not say that, the writer did, it makes a difference.

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