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HockeytownRules19

Roster Moves by the Wings

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Saying something over and over without using evidence to support it, doesn't make it true. Except in this case. You've convinced me. Our defense sucks. Because, despite not getting scored on much, they're not good at generating offense. Which apparently is their fault, and not the offense's.

I'm convinced. The offense is the defense is the offense. And round and round we go.

Case in point - Drew Miller. Everyone says he's the best pk man on the planet, he's the best 4th line grinder alive, and he cannot be replaced by a younger, faster, heavier, more talented player (Athanasiou). Why? Who knows. The stats show that Drew Miller is not producing offensively, doesn't throw any monster hits, and our pk is nothing special. But people would send Larkin down to GR before Drew Miller. Say how awesome Drew Miller is, and it becomes true. Stats don't matter.

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Yes our GAA is a lock to stay the same after 5 games so our defense is good. No other things to factor into it whatsoever

If you think defense is fine then what areas do we need to fix in order to not get dominated for the 3rd straight game?

You just want Blash's strategy to be gold and make Babcock a bum. You were raving about how great we were with Blash's strategy after 2 games. Now we're playing some of the worst hockey I've seen and everything's fine. We didn't even look good in our wins aside from our 1 line

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Yes our GAA is a lock to stay the same after 5 games so our defense is good. No other things to factor into it whatsoever

If you think defense is fine then what areas do we need to fix in order to not get dominated for the 3rd straight game?

You just want Blash's strategy to be gold and make Babcock a bum. You were raving about how great we were with Blash's strategy after 2 games. Now we're playing some of the worst hockey I've seen and everything's fine. We didn't even look good in our wins aside from our 1 line

I'm with you on the defense NOT being fine. I want to wait 20-30 games, though, because I always panic after the first few losses. Gotta give the team some time to gel and find their groove.

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I'm with you on the defense NOT being fine. I want to wait 20-30 games, though, because I always panic after the first few losses. Gotta give the team some time to gel and find their groove.

Yeah I'm going a bit overboard. We are playing truly terrible hockey but I think the defense can and will get better but consistency will always be a problem when half the d roster is playing above their heads

I also think this team has other problems. Blash's strategy being one of them. He's being shut down right now and needs to find a way to adapt. We're also playing pretty weakly, losing every puck battle and weak passing all around. These forwards can put the puck in the net tho

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We're top ten in the league in goals against. How is the defense the primary culprit? In our two losses we gave up 9 goals, four of which were powerplay and empty netters.

I'm not here to explain away our shortcomings or make excuses for the team. But this old "blame the defense" cliche is tired.

IMO we really need to find a way to get guys like Tatar, Richards, Sheahan, and Jurco going. We can't have one line consistently producing offense. Also, our special teams need to improve. That game against Montreal has an entirely different complexion if we make good on even one of those powerplays. And obviously you need to kill at least one of those penalties to keep that game within reach.

There are plenty of areas to be improved, but blaming the defense is lazy. They've played fine.

i wasnt blaming the defence for anything,did you read what i put or just go straight into your little tirad without reading it fully. I am stating that for the Wings to be a true contender again we need to upgrade the D period. Show me where i was blaming the D for the recent results,

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Yes our GAA is a lock to stay the same after 5 games so our defense is good. No other things to factor into it whatsoever

If you think defense is fine then what areas do we need to fix in order to not get dominated for the 3rd straight game?

You just want Blash's strategy to be gold and make Babcock a bum. You were raving about how great we were with Blash's strategy after 2 games. Now we're playing some of the worst hockey I've seen and everything's fine. We didn't even look good in our wins aside from our 1 line

And you want the opposite. Which is why you've been saying a) the defence is bad and b) Babs really got a lot out of them.

Basically, the heroic genius of Babcock was able to extract water from stone and Blashill can't make lemonade with lemonade. Right?

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Yeah I'm going a bit overboard. We are playing truly terrible hockey but I think the defense can and will get better but consistency will always be a problem when half the d roster is playing above their heads

I also think this team has other problems. Blash's strategy being one of them. He's being shut down right now and needs to find a way to adapt. We're also playing pretty weakly, losing every puck battle and weak passing all around. These forwards can put the puck in the net tho

The forwards are weak. That's a big issue against teams with more size than us. Relying on scoring 4 pp goals is not a good strategy. This team needs to get bigger.

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We're also playing pretty weakly, losing every puck battle and weak passing all around. These forwards can put the puck in the net tho

This was my take-away from the last few games. Sloppy no-look passes, rushed getting rid of the puck, losing puck battles along the boards.

Seems like we're getting hemmed in in our own end because the D or forwards are trying to make one too many moves with the puck instead of just moving it with purpose.

Teams really have found that if they push hard on the forecheck, they can basically own us.

Edited by jfranzen

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Yes our GAA is a lock to stay the same after 5 games so our defense is good. No other things to factor into it whatsoever

If you think defense is fine then what areas do we need to fix in order to not get dominated for the 3rd straight game?

You just want Blash's strategy to be gold and make Babcock a bum. You were raving about how great we were with Blash's strategy after 2 games. Now we're playing some of the worst hockey I've seen and everything's fine. We didn't even look good in our wins aside from our 1 line

Hyperbole. I didn't say any of that. If you're just going to distort my argument then why bother having a discussion.

I said our defense had been fine so far, and they aren't the reason we've lost two in a row. My evidence for this is that we're not getting scored on at even strength. Instead, I've placed the blame pretty squarely on the shoulders of our depth scoring, and our special teams.

But I find it telling that you're trying so hard to distort my argument JUST to find a way to blame the defense for something.

Our defense has been good for the majority of our games so far. That may change, but to this point they've been good. So find another scapegoat until they actually deserve the criticism huh?

Edit: Also, my current argument only makes Babcock look better. I'm criticising the offense, something I said was bad under Babcock and would be better under Blashill. Our defense was fine last year, and it's fine this year. We need to score more, and our "offensive coach" isn't getting it done. How does that make Blash look good and Babs look bad?

Edited by kipwinger

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Anybody who watched the game will tell you the defense did not play well why is this so hard to understand. The game against Montreal any casual fan who observed the game would say we got thoroughly dominated... But oh 1 even strength goal against... Pretty good

Nobody agrees with you. The defense isn't fine. Blash is most likely making adjustments because of this. Any coach that watched this game would know, despite the GAA not everything is fine and dandy

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Anybody who watched the game will tell you the defense did not play well why is this so hard to understand. The game against Montreal any casual fan who observed the game would say we got thoroughly dominated... But oh 1 even strength goal against... Pretty good

Nobody agrees with you. The defense isn't fine. Blash is most likely making adjustments because of this. Any coach that watched this game would know, despite the GAA not everything is fine and dandy

If our defense is so terrible, why aren't they getting scored on?

Let me guess, our goalies are bailing them out? Oh wait, nope. No they aren't.

Their numbers are worse than the overall defensive numbers. We've got the 10th lowest GAA, but our goalies rank 14th and 17th in Save Percentage, and 14th and 31st in Goals against average.

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Shots against total = 9th worst in the league

Shots against per game = 3rd worst in the league.

The defense needs to tighten up. That much is obvious.

Not really. Last year, Chicago had the 9th worst shots against per game statistics. We all know how that ended.

Giving up shots isn't a good thing. But if they're low percentage shots, then it's not the end of the world.

In general, we've got room to improve defensively. But we're a far cry from the god awful bunch of defensive losers that many are making us out to be. At least so far. If we were that bad, we'd gotten scored on a bunch. But we're not getting scored on. And contrary to popular belief that has nothing to do with how good our goalies are or aren't playing (they really aren't playing that great).

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If our defense is so terrible, why aren't they getting scored on?

Let me guess, our goalies are bailing them out? Oh wait, nope. No they aren't.

Their numbers are worse than the overall defensive numbers. We've got the 10th lowest GAA, but our goalies rank 14th and 17th in Save Percentage, and 14th and 31st in Goals against average.

Kip, you need to see the big picture. It's an easy connect the dots - bad defense leads to penalties, penalties lead to goals. Simple as that. If a team only scores power play goals against us, that doesn't necessarily equate to the defense playing well. Our defense looked like absolute crap against both Carolina and Montreal. Smith took the scapegoat duties, but all 7 of them looked piss poor over the weekend. Consistent outnumbered attacks, consistent turnovers, and a total lack of swagger/confidence. It was pretty noticeable.

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arguing with somebody who didn't even watch the game and is basing his opinion purely on stats. 1 stat actually, out of the many others that are probably a more accurate way of showing how these games are actually being played.

I understand the defense is capable of doing the bare minimum that we ask of defensemen. Which is to try and keep the puck out of their net. Sometimes. Other than the bare minimum they really hold the team back by not being able to move the puck competently, which is why we play the entire game in our zone. Our defense scoring is always s*** because nobody can move the puck and this affects more than just scoring. It's a huge part of the game and the difference between winning and losing

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Not really. Last year, Chicago had the 9th worst shots against per game statistics. We all know how that ended.

Giving up shots isn't a good thing. But if they're low percentage shots, then it's not the end of the world.

In general, we've got room to improve defensively. But we're a far cry from the god awful bunch of defensive losers that many are making us out to be. At least so far. If we were that bad, we'd gotten scored on a bunch. But we're not getting scored on. And contrary to popular belief that has nothing to do with how good our goalies are or aren't playing (they really aren't playing that great).

Just because they won the stanley cup doesnt mean you shouldn't do what you cam to better you defense. Blashill isnt going to walk around that locker room and say "hey guys i know we're letting a ton of shots on our net and allowing odd man rushes.. But its okay!! Because chicago won the stanley cup last year with these stats!" "Keep sucking and we will win too!"

That's just god awful coaching.

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You keep bringing up the fact that I didn't see 1 of the 5 games we've played like that precludes me from making a general statement out the quality of our defense. Are we only allowed to draw conclusions about the team if we watch all 82 games? Because that seems asinine.

For the 5 games we've played, our defense hasn't been bad. We haven't gotten scored on much, and when we have, a disproportionate amount of the goals (30%) have been powerplay goals.

I don't need to see all five games to conclude that. I just need to know math. Thankfully I do.


Just because they won the stanley cup doesnt mean you shouldn't do what you cam to better you defense. Blashill isnt going to walk around that locker room and say "hey guys i know we're letting a ton of shots on our net and allowing odd man rushes.. But its okay!! Because chicago won the stanley cup last year with these stats!" "Keep sucking and we will win too!"

That's just god awful coaching.

I agree. One of the ways to get more shots, and stop the other team from taking shots, is to take fewer penalties and be more successful on your special teams. Something we're currently not doing, and which is adversely affecting the team. Much more so than the "bad defense" in fact.

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...

For the 5 games we've played, our defense hasn't been bad. We haven't gotten scored on much, and when we have, a disproportionate amount of the goals (30%) have been powerplay goals.

...

I agree. One of the ways to get more shots, and stop the other team from taking shots, is to take fewer penalties and be more successful on your special teams. Something we're currently not doing, and which is adversely affecting the team. Much more so than the "bad defense" in fact.

That first part isn't actually true. 2.6 GA is not good. 17th in the league, and compared with recent seasons would also be in the middle of the pack. Our team save% is 12th at 5v5, 10th or 11th all situations (war-on-ice and hockeyanalysis differ slightly). Relative to recent seasons, it's high. In the past three years, only 9 teams have finished with a higher overall save%, and none by much (Wings 92.22 .vs highest 93.34). 5v5, our current 93.7 has been bettered only once: 94.04 by Boston. Shots against are high relative to recent averages (likely inflating the save% some), and shots for is abysmal.

I don't really want to get into the numbers, only 5 games in they're far too easily skewed. Fact is, pretty much every facet of the game has been bad. Our goalies have been excellent and our GF is good thanks to an unsustainably high shooting%. Everything else has been bad, and almost every player has been bad in at least some respects.

The fortunate, or maybe unfortunate, thing is that's it's all related. We have been a terrible possession team thus far. Every issue we have is the result of that. It's far too early to determine if it's a systemic problem, or just a bad stretch. If that gets better, and at least close to what we've done in the recent past, everything else should improve. Save% and GF might drop, but should at least stay pretty good.

Individually, Larkin, Pulkkinen, Nyquist, Quincey, and Zetterberg have been our best possession players. The only ones over 46% 5v5. Kindl, Sheahan and Abby not much below. Not coincidentally I think, those players have accounted for all of our 5v5 scoring. Pretty much the same for all situations. Quincey drops a bit, Richards and Green move up.

Pulkkinen, Nyquist, and Sheahan, despite decent percentages, aren't creating many opportunities. They aren't giving up many either, but just not doing quite enough to break through the defense. Larkin has been our best at generating offense, with Z and Abby a bit behind him. Tatar has been the biggest problem so far, though Richards, Green, and Kronwall all need to improve.

I think it's more an issue of just playing better rather than line combos, but I think we need a shakeup. I can't really come up with a set of lines that looks good to me without Datsyuk. I'd like to see Larkin or Helm with Pulk and Sheahan. Put Nyquist with Z and Abby, but that leaves Tatar and Richards together. Maybe Larkin or Helm could get them going, but that combo has been terrible so far.

I don't know. Get well soon, Pavel.

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Gonna need a roster move when Pavel is healthy.

My guess is that they would put Andersson on waivers, however I think it would be more likely that by that time one of the players on our team go on IR. Almost every team in the NHL has someone injured.

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I think moreso when Pav gets back, we have a bigger issue when it comes to cap. Right now with Pav on LTIR it looks like we have $2.2M in space, I am assuming that when he comes back that would put us over the cap by $5.3M? If so, then that's a ton of extra cheddar to trim. There would have to be more movement than just waiving Andersson or Ferraro or sending Larkin back to GR. Now, unless the current cap situation includes Pav's salary then forget what I just said! :lol: I thought, though that when a player is on LTIR it doesn't show his salary against the cap.

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That first part isn't actually true. 2.6 GA is not good. 17th in the league, and compared with recent seasons would also be in the middle of the pack. Our team save% is 12th at 5v5, 10th or 11th all situations (war-on-ice and hockeyanalysis differ slightly). Relative to recent seasons, it's high. In the past three years, only 9 teams have finished with a higher overall save%, and none by much (Wings 92.22 .vs highest 93.34). 5v5, our current 93.7 has been bettered only once: 94.04 by Boston. Shots against are high relative to recent averages (likely inflating the save% some), and shots for is abysmal.

I don't really want to get into the numbers, only 5 games in they're far too easily skewed. Fact is, pretty much every facet of the game has been bad. Our goalies have been excellent and our GF is good thanks to an unsustainably high shooting%. Everything else has been bad, and almost every player has been bad in at least some respects.

The fortunate, or maybe unfortunate, thing is that's it's all related. We have been a terrible possession team thus far. Every issue we have is the result of that. It's far too early to determine if it's a systemic problem, or just a bad stretch. If that gets better, and at least close to what we've done in the recent past, everything else should improve. Save% and GF might drop, but should at least stay pretty good.

Individually, Larkin, Pulkkinen, Nyquist, Quincey, and Zetterberg have been our best possession players. The only ones over 46% 5v5. Kindl, Sheahan and Abby not much below. Not coincidentally I think, those players have accounted for all of our 5v5 scoring. Pretty much the same for all situations. Quincey drops a bit, Richards and Green move up.

Pulkkinen, Nyquist, and Sheahan, despite decent percentages, aren't creating many opportunities. They aren't giving up many either, but just not doing quite enough to break through the defense. Larkin has been our best at generating offense, with Z and Abby a bit behind him. Tatar has been the biggest problem so far, though Richards, Green, and Kronwall all need to improve.

I think it's more an issue of just playing better rather than line combos, but I think we need a shakeup. I can't really come up with a set of lines that looks good to me without Datsyuk. I'd like to see Larkin or Helm with Pulk and Sheahan. Put Nyquist with Z and Abby, but that leaves Tatar and Richards together. Maybe Larkin or Helm could get them going, but that combo has been terrible so far.

I don't know. Get well soon, Pavel.

When I wrote my first post yesterday, ESPN hadn't updated their stats from the weekend games, so our GAA wasn't 2.6. It was lower, and were were ranked 9th in the league. Which wasn't bad. That's what I was predicating my argument on. When they updated based on the Montreal game we dropped to the 2.6 GAA you're seeing now. But you'll recall that Montreal scored two powerplay goals, and one empty netter. So it's not like that drop in GAA was the result of "bad defense" in the sense that our defense keeps being accused of (i.e. turning the puck over, blowing zone coverage, failing to clear the crease, etc.).

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I don't think Defense will be our issue this year...

You can't make season altering decisions based on a 6 game conclusion.

But - if you were to do that, you may consider the following:

#1 - Pavel Datsyuk (a top 3 defensive center in the world) has yet to play.

#2 - Dan Dekeyser (our best defensive defenceman imo) has played 1/5 games. Which creates imbalanced pairings.

#3 - 2/5 games played so far, were the second game of a back to back. In those 2 games, we have allowed 7 goals.

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