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kickazz

Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

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Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired?  

127 members have voted

  1. 1. Which numbers should be retired?

    • #91 only
      23
    • #91, #13 and #40 but not #30
      36
    • #13 and #40 but not #91 or #30
      11
    • All of them
      8
    • None of them
      44


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Every year I vote none. And every year I say, if there has to be a discussion thread about it, it's not happening.

There were no discussions about Yzerman or Lidstrom and whether or not they were going up in the rafters.

In alot of cases this may be accurate, but in this situation IMO this way of thinking is too simplistic. In the case of Fedorov, people that have to "discuss it" are people who are using emotion to cloud their judgement. Had Fedorov had his career cut short in 2003 due to injury and not leaving to Anaheim, I think he would be in the same category as Lidstrom & Yzerman.

Here are my thoughts:

I've come around on Fedorov. The guy is one of the greatest to ever wear the Winged Wheel, and he should be up there with LIdstrom/Yzerman.

Datsyuk IMO was a very special player, one that not many people have the same skill set as. Based on that alone, and based on how good he was a as two way player at his peak, I would say yes. He may not have the point totals, but imagine if his body didnt let him down, and imagine if he played in a different era where there was more scoring.

Z - How can you say no to him and Yes to Datsyuk.

Osgood - At this point no, but I see the argument as he accomplished ALOT and if he gets into the HHOF, that could alter my opinion.

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Years ago people were doubting that Datsyuk would even get into the hall of fame. Now I'd say he's a guaranteed first ballot HOFamer.

In 2004 almost 100% of the people would have said no to Fedorov's number being retired. Now you have Ken Holland making quotes like these

“[Red Wings VP] Jimmy Devellano, Mr. and Mrs. Ilitch, at the appropriate time I’ll weigh in … we’ll talk about whether or not his number should be retired. Certainly, with him going into the Hall of Fame, it’s a great accomplishment. Worth serious consideration,” said Holland on Thursday.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/red-wings-warming-to-sergei-fedorov-s-number-retirement-142300539.html

Edited by kickazz

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The other point I'll make is this. Retiring Ted Lindsay, Alex Delvecchio Sid Abel and Sawchuk's numbers were also in discussions.

Only Howe, Yzerman and Lidstrom were players whose numbers were immediately retired.

Lindsay and Delvecchio had their numbers retired in 1991

Sawchuck was retired in 1994

Abel in 1995

Discussing is completely unrelated to likelihood of retirement. Sid Abel retired from the game in 1954 and his number wasn't retired till 40 years after that.

Edited by kickazz

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None are generational players IMO. NoNE of the above.

I would argue that Fedorov was generational. One of the Russians who paved the way for others with his defect, one of the best 2-way players and skaters ever, key piece of the Red Wings' dynasty.

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Here's some more information that might help in voting.

Since this is all about being a Red Wing I'll also provide top 10 leaders for some stats ALL TIME as a Red Wing in season.

All Time Leaders in TOTAL POINTS-

1. Gordie Howe

2. Steve Yzerman

3. Alex Delvecchio

4. Nicklas Lidstrom

5. Sergei Fedorov

6. Pavel Datsyuk

7. Henrik Zetterberg

8. Norm Ullman

9. Ted Lindsay

10. Brenden Shanahan

All time total GOALS

1. Gordie Howe

2. Steve Yzerman

3. Alex Delvecchio

4. Sergei Fedorov

5. Ted Lindsay

6. Norm Ullman

7. Pavel Datsyuk

8. Henrik Zetterberg

9. Brenden Shanahan

10. John Ogrodnick

All time total ASSISTS

1. Steve Yzerman

2. Gordie Howe

3. Nicklas Lidstrom

4. Alex Delvecchio

5. Pavel Datsyuk

6. Sergei Fedorov

7. Henrik Zetterberg

8. Norm Ullman

9. Ted Lindsay

10. Reed Larson

Chris Osgood is #2 in all time Wins list as a Red Wing behind Terry Sawchuck. It's hard to show SV% and GAA since the sample size of games played sort of skews the percentages. Unless someone has a way to avoid all that.

voted no until I saw this

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voted no until I saw this

Exactly why I changed my mind over the years. Fedorov, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are top in almost all scoring categories for the entire Red Wings franchise and have surpassed Ted Lindsay. Trying to keep the whole "well Feds and Dats left" emotions out of it.

They are in the category of Red Wing legends, their numbers speak for themselves.

Here's another cool stat. This is from before the last season started. Zetterberg is actually only one goal behind Shanny with 62 and Datsyuk ended his career with 51.

pennzoilwings.jpg

Edited by kickazz

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Here is a goalie's career stats.

401 Wins, 50 shutouts, 2.49 GAA, .905 save pct in the regular season

In the playoffs, 74 wins, 15 shutouts, .916 save pct, 2.09 GAA.

11th all time wins, 27th all time shutouts,

2 all-star appearances, three Stanley cups, two Jennings awards.

Just looking at those stats, compared to players already in the hall, is he deserving?

If you didn't know that was Osgood, would it sway you?

Here is an article that has some career stat comparisons between Osgood, Roy, Hasek and Brodeur.

http://thehockeywriters.com/making-the-hall-of-fame-case-for-chris-osgood/

Source for stats I listed:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/o/osgooch01.html

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Ozzie definitely belons in the HOF and his # retired. Bottom line, he won the 08 Cup for us. He should've be awarded the Con Smythe that year as well. He also had a Con Smythe 09 Cup run, if it werent for a little help from Uncle Gary, he would've won another Cup that season.

Where are all the corsi/stat guys here? They want to use stats to justify wasting a roster spot on a bottom line player, but where are they to defend why Ozzie deserves HHOF and both he an Sergei deserve their numbers retired.

If they reitre #13 before #91, then there is a travesty going on...at least #91 honored his contract(s) even when he was only making $2M when he was the best player in the NHL. He honored that contract, then got screwed by Holland. Holland offer him 5 yrs $55M-ish and Sergei asked to wait until after he settled his divorce and found his new agent...when all that was over, he wanted to sign the deal, but that deal was pulled and Holland only offered him 4 yrs $44M-ish. I don't blame him one bit for leaving, and knowing now what UFA's think about Holland, its no wonder players don't want to come here...

Edited by LeftWinger

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Ozzie definitely belons in the HOF and his # retired. Bottom line, he won the 08 Cup for us. He should've be awarded the Con Smythe that year as well. He also had a Con Smythe 09 Cup run, if it werent for a little help from Uncle Gary, he would've won another Cup that season.

Where are all the corsi/stat guys here? They want to use stats to justify wasting a roster spot on a bottom line player, but where are they to defend why Ozzie deserves HHOF and both he an Sergei deserve their numbers retired.

If they reitre #13 before #91, then there is a travesty going on...at least #91 honored his contract(s) even when he was only making $2M when he was the best player in the NHL. He honored that contract, then got screwed by Holland. Holland offer him 5 yrs $55M-ish and Sergei asked to wait until after he settled his divorce and found his new agent...when all that was over, he wanted to sign the deal, but that deal was pulled and Holland only offered him 4 yrs $44M-ish. I don't blame him one bit for leaving, and knowing now what UFA's think about Holland, its no wonder players don't want to come here...

Maybe I'm wrong, but don't you think if they were going to retire 91 or 30 that it would have already been done?

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In alot of cases this may be accurate, but in this situation IMO this way of thinking is too simplistic. In the case of Fedorov, people that have to "discuss it" are people who are using emotion to cloud their judgement. Had Fedorov had his career cut short in 2003 due to injury and not leaving to Anaheim, I think he would be in the same category as Lidstrom & Yzerman.

Here are my thoughts:

I've come around on Fedorov. The guy is one of the greatest to ever wear the Winged Wheel, and he should be up there with LIdstrom/Yzerman.

Datsyuk IMO was a very special player, one that not many people have the same skill set as. Based on that alone, and based on how good he was a as two way player at his peak, I would say yes. He may not have the point totals, but imagine if his body didnt let him down, and imagine if he played in a different era where there was more scoring.

Z - How can you say no to him and Yes to Datsyuk.

Osgood - At this point no, but I see the argument as he accomplished ALOT and if he gets into the HHOF, that could alter my opinion.

That's just the thing, there are no defined requirements to retire a number. It just has to do with precedent and "how the franchise feels," which I think emotion has a lot to do with. Why do you think they took Larry Aurie out of the rafters? His accomplishments stand, but his number didn't. Yes, all of the players you mention have a very special place in Red Wings history and are elite players, but 100 years from now, looking back, I don't think they will mean the same to the franchise as Yzerman or Lidstrom, much less the production line and the Red Wings dynasty of the 40s-50s.

The other point I'll make is this. Retiring Ted Lindsay, Alex Delvecchio Sid Abel and Sawchuk's numbers were also in discussions.

Only Howe, Yzerman and Lidstrom were players whose numbers were immediately retired.

Lindsay and Delvecchio had their numbers retired in 1991

Sawchuck was retired in 1994

Abel in 1995

Discussing is completely unrelated to likelihood of retirement. Sid Abel retired from the game in 1954 and his number wasn't retired till 40 years after that.

I would love to see you start a thread and call into discussion whether we should have retired Lindsay, Delvecchio, Abel and Sawchuck.

These are players from a dynasty of league domination and five Stanley cups. The production line included players in contention to be the top 1, 2 and 3 leading scorers year after year. Thumbing through the history books, you will always notice that blip of tremendous success. Again, this sets a precedent for future retired jerseys and looking back, I only see Yzerman and Lidstrom contributing in the same type of way. Yzerman captained this team for nearly 2 decades and brought them to championship caliber. Lidstrom is arguably the best defenseman of all time, captaining the team to an additional cup after Yzerman.

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Your argument is completely in hindsight. But the truth and the fact of the matter is the Lindsay, Delvecchio, Adel and Sawchuck DID NOT immediately have their numbers retired. All of their numbers were retired 30-40 years after they stopped playing the game. ONLY Howe, Yzerman and Lidstrom were retired immediately the season after the stopped playing.

Nobody is arguing whether or not these players were legends. They were. But "discussion" or "time" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a number will be retired. It's an inherently flawed argument and I've already showed in two posts that there is no correlation.

Now if someone has better points as to why Fedorov, Dats, Z or Osgood shpuldn't be retired. By all means.

Edited by kickazz

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Maybe I'm wrong, but don't you think if they were going to retire 91 or 30 that it would have already been done

Like I said in an earlier post. Abel, Delvecchio, Lindsay and Sawchuck's numbers weren't retired about 30-40 years after they stopped playing.

Here is a goalie's career stats.

401 Wins, 50 shutouts, 2.49 GAA, .905 save pct in the regular season

In the playoffs, 74 wins, 15 shutouts, .916 save pct, 2.09 GAA.

11th all time wins, 27th all time shutouts,

2 all-star appearances, three Stanley cups, two Jennings awards.

Just looking at those stats, compared to players already in the hall, is he deserving?

If you didn't know that was Osgood, would it sway you?

Here is an article that has some career stat comparisons between Osgood, Roy, Hasek and Brodeur.

http://thehockeywriters.com/making-the-hall-of-fame-case-for-chris-osgood/

Source for stats I listed:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/o/osgooch01.html

He'll get into Hall of Fame for sure. It will take some time though or it will be a bit of a weaker Hall of Fame class where he will stand out moreso than other players who are eligable that year.

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I'll add another point. Terry Sawchuck's #1 and Alex Delvecchio's #10 were worn by other players for another 20 years after they retired from hockey. Ted Lindsay's #7 and Abel's #12 were worn by other players for more than 30 years.

In the time that Fedorov left the Red Wings we've had Brad Richards who was not allowed to wear #91.

Edited by kickazz

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Really Z should get 1,000 then I'd be comfortable with it but he only won one cup and his awards aren't much to brag about much like Ozzy, although he won the Conn Smythe which is why I said I'd be fine with it as long as he has atleast 900 points and 1k games played

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Winning a Conn Smythe is probably one of the best feats a player can accomplish next to the Hart Trophy. Winning a Conn Smythe means that you were the main reason (but not only reason) the team was able to win the Stanley Cup. If I was an NHL player my dream would probably be to win a Hart Trophy or knowing that I was the most valuable person on a team that won the Stanley cup.

If I had a choice of winning only 1 Hart Trophy or only 1 Conn Smythe trophy or winning 5 Selke Trophys. I'd pick Hart or Conn Smythe every single time.

Edited by kickazz

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Maybe I'm wrong, but don't you think if they were going to retire 91 or 30 that it would have already been done?

Not necessarily. I think for Ozzie it will depend on the HHOF. Fedorov, the rift needed to be healed with time. While both were great (Fedorov was downright awesome in his prime), neither had the cachet with Wings fans at the time that Yzerman or Lidstrom did, IMHO.

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Havn't read much of the thread but ill put my opinion

I don't think any of the jerseys should be retired because Datsyuk/Zetterberg werent able to win any cups by themselves. That was the Lidstrom era. Take Lids out of the equation and we don't win those 2 cups.

If one of them were to have theyre jerseys retired, my choice would have been Dats as I think he was the better and more important player when compared to Z. However, signing a 2 year contract in the KHL will probably leave a sour taste in the mouths of the organization since its clear he had at least 2 years left of hockey in him and he still could have completed his goal of playing a year in the KHL, while fulfilling his Red Wings contract. He bailed on the team because we aren't good anymore, which I don't think any player ever being hung into the rafters would have done. Fedorov bailing on us to go play in ANA for less money instantly removes him from contention IMO. Osgood to me also has no business having his jersey hung up. He wasn't as good as Crawford in CHI and Crawford will not get his jersey hung in the United Center just because he won some cups with the team.

Having said that, if Z is able to lead this team to at least a cup final before he retires, I think his jersey should go up.

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