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kickazz

Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

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Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired?  

127 members have voted

  1. 1. Which numbers should be retired?

    • #91 only
      23
    • #91, #13 and #40 but not #30
      36
    • #13 and #40 but not #91 or #30
      11
    • All of them
      8
    • None of them
      44


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I will say that of the four people listed here 3 were involved in contract drama (Osgood, Fedorov and Datsyuk). In terms of being a "True Red Wing", Zetterberg probably is likely the most loyal one. He lacks in individual hardware though. Doesn't have 3 Selke's and 4 Lady Byngs nor does he have a Hart Trophy and only has 1 Stanley cup.

Edited by kickazz

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If they reitre #13 before #91, then there is a travesty going on...at least #91 honored his contract(s) even when he was only making $2M when he was the best player in the NHL. He honored that contract, then got screwed by Holland. Holland offer him 5 yrs $55M-ish and Sergei asked to wait until after he settled his divorce and found his new agent...when all that was over, he wanted to sign the deal, but that deal was pulled and Holland only offered him 4 yrs $44M-ish. I don't blame him one bit for leaving, and knowing now what UFA's think about Holland, its no wonder players don't want to come here...

If anything your argument makes me want to think his number shouldn't be retired. Basically what you're telling us is that Fedorov faced adversity and wanted things to be done on his own time. Then you're saying the team made a contract offer and when he didn't give a definite answer they offered him the same exact contract but for one less year and then Fedorov decided to walk away from that? He wanted to walk away from being a life long Red Wing? If that's the case then why should the Red Wings return him the favor and retire his number? Clearly he didn't want to do us the favor of being a Red Wing. Retiring a player's number is about being a Red Wing and clearly it sounds like Fedorov walked away from being a Red Wing because he got offered a contract for 1 less year??? Boo freaking hoo what a cry baby!

It sounds to me like these are arguments as to why his number SHOULD NOT be retired.

Again I'm not saying his number shouldn't be retired. But if you are going to try to spin the contract story and try to blame the organization for it then it really isn't working in your favor here lol. Fedorov walked away. It wasn't the other way around. Lidstrom did not walk away from us and neither did Yzerman and any team would have loved to have either of those two.

Edited by kickazz

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I don't think any of the jerseys should be retired because Datsyuk/Zetterberg werent able to win any cups by themselves. That was the Lidstrom era. Take Lids out of the equation and we don't win those 2 cups.

In hockey, I believe this is a very flawed argument. You can say this about pretty much everyone. Without Fedorov/Lidstrom, Yzerman likely doesn't win a cup, without Yzerman/Fedorov & then Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Osgood, Lidstrom doesnt win a cup. No NHL player can win a cup by themselves.

As far as Zetterberg goes, in 2008 the guy did win the Conn Smythe, and I believe set some Red Wings records. Not sure what else you could have asked of him in that run.

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Havn't read much of the thread but ill put my opinion

I don't think any of the jerseys should be retired because Datsyuk/Zetterberg werent able to win any cups by themselves. That was the Lidstrom era. Take Lids out of the equation and we don't win those 2 cups.

If one of them were to have theyre jerseys retired, my choice would have been Dats as I think he was the better and more important player when compared to Z. However, signing a 2 year contract in the KHL will probably leave a sour taste in the mouths of the organization since its clear he had at least 2 years left of hockey in him and he still could have completed his goal of playing a year in the KHL, while fulfilling his Red Wings contract. He bailed on the team because we aren't good anymore, which I don't think any player ever being hung into the rafters would have done. Fedorov bailing on us to go play in ANA for less money instantly removes him from contention IMO. Osgood to me also has no business having his jersey hung up. He wasn't as good as Crawford in CHI and Crawford will not get his jersey hung in the United Center just because he won some cups with the team.

Having said that, if Z is able to lead this team to at least a cup final before he retires, I think his jersey should go up.

Wings win in 02 with or without Lidstrom. He was great, but nobody was beating that HOOF team. I think in 08, he wasn't as big a factor either. He was great, but that team was a puck possession magic show. He was a big part of it, for sure, but if he wasn't there, they may have still won.

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Yeah I think the two most important reasons the Wings won the 08 cup was Zetterberg and Osgood. It's close between the two who was more important but ultimately I think Zetterberg was judged as most important (and won the Conn Smythe) because not only did he shutdown Crosby and Malkin and their offense on the penalty kills but he also broke the Red Wings franchise record for points in a playoff season with 27 points. He also broke the record for goals scored in the playoffs with 13 goals. Not even Yzerman or Fedorov were able to reach that feat even though they played with the better teams. Osgood was our defense but Zetterberg was our offense and our defense combined. That's not to say Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Franzen weren't important. But Z and Ozzy were definitely the bigger parts of the whole.

Had we won the 2009 cup, Osgood would have gotten the Conn Smythe for sure. It would have been between him and Zetterberg again but I think the 2nd time around they would have given it to Osgood.

Edited by kickazz

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Unfortunately the one option I would've voted for isn't on the poll. IMO Datsyuk is the only one out of the 4 that will have his jersey hanging in the rafters. Personally I'd like to see Sergei's 91 up there too, but the way he left for the Ducks makes me doubt that will ever happen. Hank is good, and was definitely a huge part of our '08 Cup. But for an organization like the Wings, you need at least 2 or more Cups to even be considered. So the jury is still out on Hank (maybe he'll lead us to another Cup before he hangs em up). As for Osgood. Always loved the guy. But he was never even close to elite. He was solid, which turned into decent, which turned into dreadful.

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Unfortunately the one option I would've voted for isn't on the poll. IMO Datsyuk is the only one out of the 4 that will have his jersey hanging in the rafters. Personally I'd like to see Sergei's 91 up there too, but the way he left for the Ducks makes me doubt that will ever happen. Hank is good, and was definitely a huge part of our '08 Cup. But for an organization like the Wings, you need at least 2 or more Cups to even be considered. So the jury is still out on Hank (maybe he'll lead us to another Cup before he hangs em up). As for Osgood. Always loved the guy. But he was never even close to elite. He was solid, which turned into decent, which turned into dreadful.

Datsyuk left in the middle of his contract. If you're using Sergei leaving to Anaheim as a free agent to go to Anaheim as a reason to not have his jersey retired, you should not be saying datsyuk will have his retired. He bolted to Russia without playing out his contract.

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Same to similar numbers as Roy, Hasek, Brodeur and he was never near elite? The three listed above also played on arguably the best all around teams in the 90's. Jersey was a better defensive team than Detroit, Colorado was Colorado, but no, they did all the work and was the only reason their teams were so good...

08 Cup rests on 2 people's shoulders, Z and Ozzie. The team was struggling and Ozzie only came in and won 9 straight wins in playoffs. He won 3 Cups, two as the main goalie. The stats don't lie (right krsmith?) Osgood, while maybe not the best goalie of his generation, was as close to elite as possible without being called elite.

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Honestly, I don't think any of them should have their number retired. Although, Fedorov would be the most deserving if they did retire any one of those numbers. To retire a player's number they should be a generational talent that helped define the success of the team and so much so that no one who ever wears that number again would get to their level. As good and important to the team as Zetterberg and Datsyuk are/were, they were never honestly on the same level as Fedorov. And I love Ozzie, but it would have to take something really special to retire another goalie's number.

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If you won't put 13/40 up because they never did anything of significance without Lidstrom, then let's take Yzerman's jersey off the rafters. Dude was a playoff choke artist before Feds and Lidstrom reached their primes. He was also the 3rd wheel for all 3 cups.

If you're only putting up generational talents, then only Lidstrom and Howe belong in there. Yzerman is not one.

Edited by shocky2002

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can't be a generational talent when you never sniffed the top 3 at your own position.

Yzerman was sort of like hockey's own Drew Brees in a league with Peyton Manning and Tom Brady

Edited by shocky2002

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I'll give you guys another way of looking at the situation.

The Detroit Red Wings organization has been in existence since 1926. It's been 90 years since this team existed. In the 90 years there have been 909 different players that played on this team.

909 different players.

Of all those players that played, Sergei Fedorov, Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg are ranked number 5, 6 and 7 on all time top scoring list.

Numbers 1-4 on the list have had their numbers retired. Number 5 on the list used to be Ted Lindsay who was surpassed by all of Zetterberg, Dats and Feds. Lindsay is now ranked 9. In my opinion, 5, 6 and 7 need to be retired as well.

Number 5, 6, 7 out of 900 or so players. That is an incredible thing. They have all set high standards. They are all Red Wing legends.

This is not even taking into consideration that Datsyuk and Zetterberg played in an era where scoring is much harder than it used to be with all these giant goalie pads and monster sized defenseman.

Edited by kickazz

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Shocky does have a point. Yzerman was never considered the best player, not even top 3 in his position. Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier overshadowed him for a long long time.

How many folks have over 150 points in a season? Stevie is one of them.

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How many folks have over 150 points in a season? Stevie is one of them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put Yzerman down in anyway. I'm just saying that a lot of NHL bigshots and fans around the world didn't consider Yzerman to be the best. They were into Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux. At least that's how I understand it. Similarly a lot of fans and press was always more into Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin rather than Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

Maybe you could say in a way these guys were overlooked or underrated at times. To me personally, watching Yzerman.. he got more and more popular to me as the years went by. The double OT goal in 96 was the moment Yzerman became by favorite player ever.

Edited by kickazz

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put Yzerman down in anyway. I'm just saying that a lot of NHL bigshots and fans around the world didn't consider Yzerman to be the best. They were into Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux. At least that's how I understand it. Similarly a lot of fans and press was always more into Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin rather than Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

Maybe you could say in a way these guys were overlooked or underrated at times. To me personally, watching Yzerman.. he got more and more popular to me as the years went by. The double OT goal in 96 was the moment Yzerman became by favorite player ever.

I remember that goal vividly. It was the night of my first spring choir concert as a director, and the game lasted long enough for me to get home and watch it live. I remember playing a trivia game in an arcade and a question was who was the third best center in the NHL behind Gretzky and Lemieux, and Yzerman was the answer. I think it was called trivia whiz or something like that. Edited by TheXym

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I was aware of Nicholls. Compared to the rest of his career it could be viewed as a fluke, though he did hit 100 in another season. It doesn't diminish Yzerman's achievement any. Yzerman had also had seasons with 137 and 127 points in the midst of six straight 100+ point seasons.

Messier's top three point seasons were 129, 111, and 107. While he also had six total 100+ point seasons, I think a strong case could be made for Messier overall having the stronger supporting cast for those seasons. Yzerman only had Fedorov for the final three of his run.

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I was aware of Nicholls. Compared to the rest of his career it could be viewed as a fluke, though he did hit 100 in another season. It doesn't diminish Yzerman's achievement any. Yzerman had also had seasons with 137 and 127 points in the midst of six straight 100+ point seasons.

Messier's top three point seasons were 129, 111, and 107. While he also had six total 100+ point seasons, I think a strong case could be made for Messier overall having the stronger supporting cast for those seasons. Yzerman only had Fedorov for the final three of his run.

Messier was considered the best hockey player in the world behind Gretzky and Lemieux for much of that time, even despite Yzerman scoring more points. I'm biased towards Yzerman, but the rest of the hockey world has Messier ranked higher than him.

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Because Messier was a beast and he didn't play for the wings.. If they switched teams people(Canadians) would say Yzerman was better

Probably. But the fact is that Messier won Cups and was in the spotlight, while Yzerman was a star player on a bad team for most of the 80's.

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can't be a generational talent when you never sniffed the top 3 at your own position.

Yzerman was sort of like hockey's own Drew Brees in a league with Peyton Manning and Tom Brady

In 1989, Sports Illustrated thought differently, as did the rest of the NHL.

http://www.si.com/vault/1989/03/20/119567/no-3-with-a-bullet-motowns-steve-yzerman-the-nhls-third-brightest-star-could-climb-even-higher-on-the-charts

Edited by LeftWinger

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Shocky does have a point. Yzerman was never considered the best player, not even top 3 in his position. Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier overshadowed him for a long long time.

See above post....number 3 with a bullet.

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