AA

[Richdg 267]

4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

AA has hardly played any center in the NHL, less than a couple full games, so he's obviously been better on the wing.  But that doesn't mean that's where he should be playing.  He AND Larkin are our most offensively dynamic players.  AA is probably even better than Larkin is (offensively) but Blash won't give him the same opportunity for some reason.  It's extremely important that both turn into top 1 and 2 centers over the coming years and they aren't going to do that by never playing center (for the record I'd have Svech playing center too in GR).  At the end of the day I want the puck on the stick of the guys most able to make something happen with it.  Put them both in the middle, let  them get their reps, and if we miss the playoffs then so be it.  At least they'll grow as players.  Neilsen, Helm, Z, Sheahan, Glendening aren't the future of this organization down the middle, AA and Larkin are, and we're retarding that future by not allowing it to develop.  I'd do something like this with all healthy. 

Nyquist-Larkin-Vanek

Z-AA-Mantha

Tatar-Neilsen-Abby

Glen-Helm-Sheahan/Jurco

I fully agree on Larkin and AA at C. The only way for them to improve at the position-which both need to do, is to play the position.

[Echolalia 2,961]

2 hours ago, kickazz said:

Even though Larkin plays wing, the puck seems to be on his stick more often than the other two he plays with. With AA it's not the same, he actually does play like a winger. 

I'm not too worried about Larkin not playing center because he still approaches his game as a center. The only downside is he doesn't get faceoff practice. 

I'm surprised his faceoffs didn't get better over the summer. I heard he was working on them with Luke Glendening for a while. Maybe he'll be like Evgeny Malkin and never actually become good at faceoffs. 

i guess Glendening never let him win a faceoff :/

[Buppy 1,720]

18 minutes ago, Richdg said:

I fully agree on Larkin and AA at C. The only way for them to improve at the position-which both need to do, is to play the position.

That's not really true. Further development as players and further adjustment to the NHL game could make for a more seamless transition in the future.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Their future is likely at center, they need to be playing center.  Period.  That's the best way to learn, and the focus needs to be on the future rather than hoping to squeak into the playoffs so they can lose in 5 games.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

AA has hardly played any center in the NHL, less than a couple full games, so he's obviously been better on the wing.  But that doesn't mean that's where he should be playing.  

I thought AA played most if not all of his 14 games last year at center, but i could be wrong.

Anyway, I'm not adamant that he not play center - just that it's not essential that he play there right now. My argument is more: Wing is easier, maybe let him continue to excel there and then transition to center once he's fully used to the league. Also, maybe transition him there once Larkin's got a handle on being center. If you put Larkin and AA as our top 2 centers, as you suggest, that could be some rough sledding for the team for a while if we have our 2 main centers that can't run the system/win faceoffs/transition as centermen need to. You could actually be hurting other players development (like Mantha) by not giving them someone who can currently handle this important position. For instance, Mantha's excelling with Z and I think him continuing to score and feel comfortable in the league is really important to our future. Replace Z with Larkin, who isn't a great centerman yet and maybe that goes away.

Side point: you say Nielson's not our future at center, but he is signed for 5 more years and will likely be 2C or 3C for that time. He can handle the 2C spot for a couple years.

[Buppy 1,720]

16 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Their future is likely at center, they need to be playing center.  Period.  That's the best way to learn, and the focus needs to be on the future rather than hoping to squeak into the playoffs so they can lose in 5 games.

Maybe that's their future, maybe not. And there's a lot of ways to focus on the future. If they're better players, and we're a better team, with one or both of them at wing we shouldn't complain about it.

[kickazz 5,459]

We don't even know if AA will end up as a center.. Jonathan Ericsson was drafted as a forward, look where he ended up. 

Anyways, ultimately AA and Larkin are going to have to steal the center positions. If Zetterberg or Nielsen are performing better on the faceoffs then they won't give away the position to Larkin or AA and risk losing 60% of the faceoffs per night which can make or break close games. 

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

No, Ericsson was drafted to play defense because Andersson saw him filling in there for a game in Sweden.  He was never going to be an NHL forward.

Playing them on the wing now because the team is a little bit better off short term is focusing on the wrong thing.  This team is going nowhere.  Management needs to understand that and focus on getting this team back to contender status ASAP, not milking The Streak.

[Richdg 267]

21 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

I thought AA played most if not all of his 14 games last year at center, but i could be wrong.

Anyway, I'm not adamant that he not play center - just that it's not essential that he play there right now. My argument is more: Wing is easier, maybe let him continue to excel there and then transition to center once he's fully used to the league. Also, maybe transition him there once Larkin's got a handle on being center. If you put Larkin and AA as our top 2 centers, as you suggest, that could be some rough sledding for the team for a while if we have our 2 main centers that can't run the system/win faceoffs/transition as centermen need to. You could actually be hurting other players development (like Mantha) by not giving them someone who can currently handle this important position. For instance, Mantha's excelling with Z and I think him continuing to score and feel comfortable in the league is really important to our future. Replace Z with Larkin, who isn't a great centerman yet and maybe that goes away.

Side point: you say Nielson's not our future at center, but he is signed for 5 more years and will likely be 2C or 3C for that time. He can handle the 2C spot for a couple years.

Because we are playing so great now..... This year and maybe next we all need to forget the W-L's. It is all about player development. I just wonder how many games did Crosby play at wing? Yzerman? McDavid? Mario? Gretzky? There are always some that in fact do play different positions. But the majority don't. They play their main position from the beginning. That is how they grow and develop. Yes it is easier if you have great players around you. Again we don't. We have what we have and need to build from here.

[kickazz 5,459]

25 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

No, Ericsson was drafted to play defense because Andersson saw him filling in there for a game in Sweden.  He was never going to be an NHL forward.

Playing them on the wing now because the team is a little bit better off short term is focusing on the wrong thing.  This team is going nowhere.  Management needs to understand that and focus on getting this team back to contender status ASAP, not milking The Streak.

We don't really know what truly is better. We're not really experts. Maybe to them the better strategy is to ease the two into the center position rather than a "deer in headlights" type of situation. Neither Datsyuk nor Zetterberg played as top 6 centers for at least 2 - 3 years into their career. So how exactly is this situation any more or less different? They're following almost the same exact plan as they did in the 2002-2005 transition with D and Z. If anything Larkin and AA have gotten more opportunities than D and Z did because they've actually gotten top 6 minutes unlike the euro twins. The only difference is Zettterberg started killing penalties his rookie year so took a good amount of faceoffs during the PK in his initial years. 

In his rookie year Zetterberg took 401 faceoffs. If AA had played a full season last year his faceoffs would be projected to be around 285 faceoffs. One one hand, Z's ice time was around 15 minutes a night while AA's was 9 minutes a night. I believe mathematically speaking their total faceoff projection is the same in their rookie years (had AA actually played the full season and had he had the same amount of minutes as Z in his rookie year).

Edited December 11, 2016 by kickazz

[kipwinger 8,759]

I mean, we're not a very good team WITHOUT them at center, so what's the downside of playing them there?  Both Larkin and AA have played center their whole careers.  They've been top centers in every respective league they've played in so far.  There's no reason to assume they'd be better on the wing in the NHL without ever giving them significant time down the middle.  Also, we're likely going to miss the playoffs anyway (with Z, Neilsen, Glen, Sheahan, Helm) as regular centers.  So why not see what the kids can do at their natural positions, get them some experience, and at best improve on what we're doing now?  Or at WORST miss the playoffs like we're probably going to do anyway, gain the aforementioned experience for Larkin and AA, and get a better draft pick? 

 

Edit: Also, in tonight's game we're dressing Ott and Sheahan at center.  Surely Larkin and AA are better options?  And given that center is the more important position I think the relative gain there outweighs the relative loss of either guy on the wing.

Edited December 11, 2016 by kipwinger

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

54 minutes ago, Richdg said:

Because we are playing so great now..... This year and maybe next we all need to forget the W-L's. It is all about player development. I just wonder how many games did Crosby play at wing? Yzerman? McDavid? Mario? Gretzky? There are always some that in fact do play different positions. But the majority don't. They play their main position from the beginning. That is how they grow and develop. Yes it is easier if you have great players around you. Again we don't. We have what we have and need to build from here.

Well, you listed some of the best centers ever to play (except obviously McDavid still has to build his legacy). Many great centers like Zetterberg, Messier, Malkin, Fedorov, Pavelski, Benn, Damphousse, Bobby Hull (more a winger who played center), Kirk Muller, Andreychuck, spent significant time on the wing and switched between the 2 positions at different times in their careers.

Edited December 11, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kickazz 5,459]

24 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Edit: Also, in tonight's game we're dressing Ott and Sheahan at center.  Surely Larkin and AA are better options?  And given that center is the more important position I think the relative gain there outweighs the relative loss of either guy on the wing.

I will certainly agree that Larkin/AA over Ott and Sheahan. As I mentioned in previous post, at the very least, D and Z played as 3rd line centers early in their careers. (Datsyuk moreso). 

Edited December 11, 2016 by kickazz

[chaps80 1,591]

4 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

No, Ericsson was drafted to play defense because Andersson saw him filling in there for a game in Sweden.  He was never going to be an NHL forward.

Maybe they should try him at forward. Can't hurt at this point. lol

[Richdg 267]

5 hours ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

Well, you listed some of the best centers ever to play (except obviously McDavid still has to build his legacy). Many great centers like Zetterberg, Messier, Malkin, Fedorov, Pavelski, Benn, Damphousse, Bobby Hull (more a winger who played center), Kirk Muller, Andreychuck, spent significant time on the wing and switched between the 2 positions at different times in their careers.

Of the guys you listed all are natural C that would move to wing when they were playing on another great C's line. like Z has done with Datsyuk. Some guys can do it others can't. But and this is key, all were used mainly as a C when they were beginning their careers. That is how they became great players. Who is our great C's that these guys should move over for? We don't have any. Yes Z is playing well now-on pace for about 60 points. But would you like to bet on his second half production? I wouldn't.

Play the youth at their natural positions and let them grow.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

1 hour ago, Richdg said:

Of the guys you listed all are natural C that would move to wing when they were playing on another great C's line. like Z has done with Datsyuk. Some guys can do it others can't. But and this is key, all were used mainly as a C when they were beginning their careers. That is how they became great players. Who is our great C's that these guys should move over for? We don't have any. Yes Z is playing well now-on pace for about 60 points. But would you like to bet on his second half production? I wouldn't.

Play the youth at their natural positions and let them grow.

That's simply not true, though. Z mainly played mainly wing early on. On the 2 kids and a goat Pav was the centerman almost all the time. Pretty much the exact equivalent would be AA playing on Larkin's wing (You can even put Vanek or Z on the wing if you want a goat). You can say they all had "great Cs" but Pav wasn't polished Pav when they played together in the early years.

Messier played his first 5 years in the NHL at left wing. And he didn't play most of his time on the famous Gretzky-Kurri line, he was on the the 2nd line with Glen Anderson. 

Andreychuck was left wing for most of his early career and didn't switch until much later. Even after his move to the Lightning, maybe. Not sure who he would have played with in Buffalo.

Anyway, I was just giving some examples. I'm sure there's plenty of centers that start on the wing as they're first getting into the league. I really like AA and I'd be fine if he plays center - I just don't think it mess up his development if he switches to that position later. I liked him last year as 3C and I like him this year as winger on the 1st or 2nd line - he's shown he can do both so more power to him (yes, that's a battery joke).

Edited December 12, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 12/10/2016 at 6:53 AM, DickieDunn said:

just like McCarty and Lapointe.  When Lapointe wanted $4 mil in a non cap league, Holland let him walk.  He should have done the same with Abdelkader

I agree.  Too bad our coach is a mouth breathing moron who isn't smart enough to know that.

We dont exactly have another PF in waiting. If you have a better option im all ears.  

[kickazz 5,459]

9 hours ago, Richdg said:

Of the guys you listed all are natural C that would move to wing when they were playing on another great C's line. like Z has done with Datsyuk. Some guys can do it others can't. But and this is key, all were used mainly as a C when they were beginning their careers. That is how they became great players. Who is our great C's that these guys should move over for? We don't have any. Yes Z is playing well now-on pace for about 60 points. But would you like to bet on his second half production? I wouldn't.

Play the youth at their natural positions and let them grow.

06-07 Z took 888 faceoffs and Datsyuk took 845

07-08 Z took around 1200 faceoffs and Datsyuk took around 800.

You tell me who played primarily center during those years lol.

There's no hard fast rule. 

Z played mostly Winger in his first few years.

Edited December 12, 2016 by kickazz

[Richdg 267]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

06-07 Z took 888 faceoffs and Datsyuk took 845

07-08 Z took around 1200 faceoffs and Datsyuk took around 800.

You tell me who played primarily center during those years lol.

There's no hard fast rule. 

Z played mostly Winger in his first few years.

Z has played mostly C. The only time he plays winger was with Datsyuk. Yes the last few years he has been playing much more winger. Why is that? Injuries and dropping production. So what are we doing? 1. Playing Z at a position that wears him out/he performs at a lower level now and 2. denying the time to our future top 2 C's. Which is the point in all of this. We are not going to win much with Z at C so why do it? Our main chance at winning over the next few years all centers (no pun intended) around Larkin and AA becoming stars at C with Mantha and Svechnikov becoming stars at winger. Now if the brain trust decides to try and build 1 line out of those guys then yes put AA at winger with Mantha and Larkin. That would be a very fast line. But then we will be forced to watch the Sheahan, Helm, and Glendenings of the world at C for the next 3-5 years.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

8 hours ago, Richdg said:

Z has played mostly C. The only time he plays winger was with Datsyuk. Yes the last few years he has been playing much more winger. Why is that? Injuries and dropping production. So what are we doing? 1. Playing Z at a position that wears him out/he performs at a lower level now and 2. denying the time to our future top 2 C's. Which is the point in all of this. We are not going to win much with Z at C so why do it? Our main chance at winning over the next few years all centers (no pun intended) around Larkin and AA becoming stars at C with Mantha and Svechnikov becoming stars at winger. Now if the brain trust decides to try and build 1 line out of those guys then yes put AA at winger with Mantha and Larkin. That would be a very fast line. But then we will be forced to watch the Sheahan, Helm, and Glendenings of the world at C for the next 3-5 years.

Z is a natural winger who got slotted at C cause hes too friggin good not to.

Dats was a natural C who sometimes played wing.

[LeftWinger 5,149]

On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 9:49 AM, kipwinger said:

AA has hardly played any center in the NHL, less than a couple full games, so he's obviously been better on the wing.  But that doesn't mean that's where he should be playing.  He AND Larkin are our most offensively dynamic players.  AA is probably even better than Larkin is (offensively) but Blash won't give him the same opportunity for some reason.  It's extremely important that both turn into top 1 and 2 centers over the coming years and they aren't going to do that by never playing center (for the record I'd have Svech playing center too in GR).  At the end of the day I want the puck on the stick of the guys most able to make something happen with it.  Put them both in the middle, let  them get their reps, and if we miss the playoffs then so be it.  At least they'll grow as players.  Neilsen, Helm, Z, Sheahan, Glendening aren't the future of this organization down the middle, AA and Larkin are, and we're retarding that future by not allowing it to develop.  I'd do something like this with all healthy. 

Nyquist-Larkin-Vanek

Z-AA-Mantha

Tatar-Neilsen-Abby

Glen-Helm-Sheahan/Jurco

I like those lines, but I am pretty sure Ott will be in there. Blashill likes him too much.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I'm okay with Larkin and Athanasiou playing center, but I'm not okay with them being our top two centers. As of today both Zetterberg and Nielsen are better slotted as our one / two in my opinion.

You really think Svechnikov has earned a spot on this team with his 8 points in 24 AHL game? He's not close to being ready. We don't need to mismanage another highly touted prospect, the same way we did with Jurco.

Tatar hasn't been great so far this season, and I get frustrated with him as much as anyone. I'd move him off that top line for sure, but no way would I scratch him...

14 - 40 - 39

72 - 51 - 62

21 - 71 - 26

8 - 43 - 15 / 41

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Jurco hasnt been mismanaged.  He's been injured.  

I do think Svech should be up.  Time to clean house.  This team is pathetic for the first time in 3 decades.  All the long term, no movement clause contracts makes it damn near impossible for any worthwhile trades to hapen, so just bench the underperformers until they want out.  Bring up the kids and let them rin and gun.  "But we'll finish last if we do that."  Good!!  I'd much rather finish 30th than 17th.

There's like 3 or 4 guys ahead of Svech at the moment.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

4 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Jurco hasnt been mismanaged.  He's been injured.  

I do think Svech should be up.  Time to clean house.  This team is pathetic for the first time in 3 decades.  All the long term, no movement clause contracts makes it damn near impossible for any worthwhile trades to hapen, so just bench the underperformers until they want out.  Bring up the kids and let them rin and gun.  "But we'll finish last if we do that."  Good!!  I'd much rather finish 30th than 17th.

The point on Jurco goes beyond this year. Jurco was kept in the NHL when he wasn't ready and spent a lot of time scratched or on the 4th line when he could have been getting good minutes in the AHL and developing his game. Then he was kept on the 4th despite the fact that he didn't play a grinder-type game.

This should be something of a warning against bringing someone like Svech up who isn't ready yet. He has 8 pts in 24 games in GR. In the NHL that would probably be around 3 pts and he would end up as the extra forward and needlessly get him frustrated. Let him find his footing in the AHL first.

Edited December 15, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

40 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

This is why we are bad.  Jurco and Svech should be top 6 with Vanek, Mantha, Larkin, and Athanasiou.  Holland and Blashill still think Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, and Andelkader are 1st line guys.  in reality, they are all slow, play soft 95% of the time, and should barely be 3rd liners on a contending team.

Svech cant score with top 6 mins in the AHL so we should promote to top 6 mins in the NHL.

Rightttttt.