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LeftWinger

2017 NHLTrade Deadline Discussion

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Simple, do the Wings Buy to try to make the playoffs or SELL to get draft picks and rebuild.  

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8 minutes ago, scotzman said:

Were you confused about my attitude toward him? I think he needs to move on. He's not cutting it anymore. Not just because of Vanek, which I think I've made abundantly clear. I'm totally willing to eat my words after this years NHL Draft if he can unload Tatar/Nyquist and possibly Green. I'd prefer he moves Nyquist, but I'm not sure he can make that happen.

No I'm just confused why you're using this thread to critique Holland's career. It's a trade deadline thread and you're bringing up the last 5 years playoffs.  

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6 minutes ago, Son of a Wing said:

No I'm just confused why you're using this thread to critique Holland's career. It's a trade deadline thread and you're bringing up the last 5 years playoffs.  

Sorry for your confusion... if you're following along, there have been quite a few people upset with the Vanek trade. I mentioned my displeasure but added that it's not solely due to the Vanek trade but his recent body of work. At that point, a few people pointed out to me that they disagreed with that opinion. I proceeded to plead my case. Hope that clears it up for you.

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8 minutes ago, scotzman said:

Sorry for your confusion... if you're following along, there have been quite a few people upset with the Vanek trade. I mentioned my displeasure but added that it's not solely due to the Vanek trade but his recent body of work. At that point, a few people pointed out to me that they disagreed with that opinion. I proceeded to plead my case. Hope that clears it up for you.

Great and if you want to have that discussion, take it somewhere else. We don't need yet another thread analyzing Holland's career. 

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Just now, Son of a Wing said:

Great and if you want to have that discussion, take it somewhere else. We don't need yet another thread analyzing Holland's career. 

That seems like a pretty pushy statement... are you the arbiter of what can and can't be discussed? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you sure seem hellbent on telling me what to do. Again, I only responded to where the conversation was going.

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1 hour ago, Son of a Wing said:

No I'm just confused why you're using this thread to critique Holland's career. It's a trade deadline thread and you're bringing up the last 5 years playoffs.  

Because this is a trade deadline thread, his job is to fix the team in the trade deadline, and he is making an argument about his past failures are not being addressed?

I think the point is that, these are all pieces that are put together by Holland.  If you screw up something, you have to compensate.  All that is happening now is he is trying to fix his past mistakes, and isn't doing a very good job of it. 

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Holland failed.

This was supposed to be a sale to help our rebuild. He was supposed to make it to where we can start calling players up to play here permanently. He did nothing to help in that. He did nothing to lighten the cap next season,  unlike Toronto last season, Holland just dumped a few free agents that probably weren't going to come back here anyhow. Sure, he got a couple of draft picks, but we aren't going to see those players for about 5 years, if at all. Dumping UFA'S for picks is child's play, your grandmother could've done that. He needed to dump about $12m in salary and at least 3 roster spots that were to be taken up next season. Selling is dumping players that take up too much cap and valuable roster spots keeping the rebuild in Grand Rapids. We didn't need to sell off UFA'S for middle round picks. We needed to sell off millions of dollars for middle to low round picks. If 1st rounders weren't being offered to you for your coveted UFA'S then you may as well kept them for the remainder. The focus should've been dumping Nyquist, Helm, Ericsson, Howard, Green, contracts like that. Montreal was looking for a scoring winger, call them offer them Nyquist for a 4th or lower. At least 3 of those 5 mentioned should be on other teams today. What Holland did was not sell for a rebuild. He pawned off players he wasn't going to resign for picks that mean nothing and will probably never see the nhl, at least not until 2021. Meanwhile, we still only have  $6M in cap space for next season...that is not selling to make room for the rebuild. That is failing your fans, your team, your owners and yourself.

Look what Yzerman did with flip. That's selling. He cleared cap and a roster spot, for middle or lower pick. Just keep thinking Holland knows how to run a team, today was his chance to truly show he is a good gm. He failed miserably.

I like draft picks and was excited in the direction he seemed to be going, but he values his players too much to truly rebuild. Hence the reason he was still trying to sign Smith yesterday. Like I said at least 3 roster spots and $12M should've been freed up off next seasons roster, but you're going to once again have the highest paid team in the league with damn near the worst record. And this is what you call selling for a rebuild...

absolute fail.

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27 minutes ago, Majsheppard said:

Because this is a trade deadline thread, his job is to fix the team in the trade deadline, and he is making an argument about his past failures are not being addressed?

I think the point is that, these are all pieces that are put together by Holland.  If you screw up something, you have to compensate.  All that is happening now is he is trying to fix his past mistakes, and isn't doing a very good job of it. 

If you were expecting Holland to "fix the team" this week, your expectations were misplaced.

There's no quick and easy fix for this team. We have to rebuild, and we have to be smart about how we do that. Part of that is getting the best return you can get for the assets that you've deemed expendable. So, like, sure -- maybe Holland could've moved Nyquist today. We would've enjoyed the immediate gratification, but we would've been selling low on one of our better assets, because 1) trade deadline week generally isn't the time for shopping non-rental players, and 2) Nyquist has really struggled this season. If we're really serious about fixing mistakes and doing a rebuild the right way, it makes much more sense to be patient and wait. What's the rush?

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No rush but he did nothing to help a rebuild. He cleared zero cap or roster space for next season. Well have a higher payroll and the same (worse without vanek) team. Unless McIlrath has a miraculous summer of redefining the direction of his nhl career,  we'll have the same D...Smith barely played anyhow. Same goalies, same full time forwards minus Vanek. Be ready for another abysmal season in 17-18. Plus still having the highest payroll in the nhl...again. 

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25 minutes ago, Dabura said:

If you were expecting Holland to "fix the team" this week, your expectations were misplaced.

There's no quick and easy fix for this team. We have to rebuild, and we have to be smart about how we do that. Part of that is getting the best return you can get for the assets that you've deemed expendable. So, like, sure -- maybe Holland could've moved Nyquist today. We would've enjoyed the immediate gratification, but we would've been selling low on one of our better assets, because 1) trade deadline week generally isn't the time for shopping non-rental players, and 2) Nyquist has really struggled this season. If we're really serious about fixing mistakes and doing a rebuild the right way, it makes much more sense to be patient and wait. What's the rush?

Agreed.  

A rebuild doesn't get done in a day.  Up until just a few weeks ago this team was still "rebuilding on the fly" There's probably still a lot of that mentality in the management group.  Do you just give up on 25 years of playoffs over night?  An attitude of we're one or two pieces away from contending or going deep with the blink of an eye.  Sure. You, the casual or fanatical fan might be able to, but that's not how things work.

How many contracts with term or huge cap were actually moved today?  ...or this week?  Those things require hockey trades.  How many of those were completed today?  This week? 

Oh right, it doesn't matter how the league works or what GMs are really looking for on Trade Deadline day.  It's what Ken Holland did or did not do.  Sorry your most hated player of the month didn't get moved.  Or that Ken Holland didn't do enough for you. Sorry about your tough luck. 

I'm sure Ken Holland is losing a lot of sleep about how you feel he did on trade deadline day

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19 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

No rush but he did nothing to help a rebuild. He cleared zero cap or roster space for next season. Well have a higher payroll and the same (worse without vanek) team. Unless McIlrath has a miraculous summer of redefining the direction of his nhl career,  we'll have the same D...Smith barely played anyhow. Same goalies, same full time forwards minus Vanek. Be ready for another abysmal season in 17-18. Plus still having the highest payroll in the nhl...again. 

You do realize that we were sellers... and on trade deadline that means giving up players that teams are actually looking for. Teams are looking for a difference maker or player that can add some depth or specific need. Usually a UFA or a player that has very specifc cap hit number.  C'mon Lefty.  This ain't your first rodeo. Why do we all have to talk you down every "NHL Event Day" Stop pretending like these singular days, Free Agent Frenzy, Trade Deadline Day, and Day 1 of the Draft, are going to miraculously transform this team into your fantasy team.

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Ken Holland wouldn't lose sleep if he did nothing or traded a 1st for a bottom 6 defender...he's in his own world where he thinks that this is the year "2008 Franzen" turns up. Nyquist will never be any better, Helm will never be any better, Ericsson is not going to show up one day and be lidstrom. Howard will never be a Cup goalie. The time has come to cut ties with these players that were so graciously and grossly overpaid and for far too long. Highest salary in the nhl, 3rd worst record...what does Holland do? Nothing to make room for a rebuild. But, we'll see if he can clear  $12M or more over the summer...he has time, but I doubt he'll cut ties with anyone. And we'll still be the highest paid team and finish in the same group of basement dwellers...

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7 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Ken Holland wouldn't lose sleep if he did nothing or traded a 1st for a bottom 6 defender...he's in his own world where he thinks that this is the year "2008 Franzen" turns up. Nyquist will never be any better, Helm will never be any better, Ericsson is not going to show up one day and be lidstrom. Howard will never be a Cup goalie. The time has come to cut ties with these players that were so graciously and grossly overpaid and for far too long. Highest salary in the nhl, 3rd worst record...what does Holland do? Nothing to make room for a rebuild. But, we'll see if he can clear  $12M or more over the summer...he has time, but I doubt he'll cut ties with anyone. And we'll still be the highest paid team and finish in the same group of basement dwellers...

 

No really, man.  You should put the internet away for a while.  #genuineconcern

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Holland failed.

This was supposed to be a sale to help our rebuild. He was supposed to make it to where we can start calling players up to play here permanently. He did nothing to help in that. He did nothing to lighten the cap next season,  unlike Toronto last season, Holland just dumped a few free agents that probably weren't going to come back here anyhow. Sure, he got a couple of draft picks, but we aren't going to see those players for about 5 years, if at all. Dumping UFA'S for picks is child's play, your grandmother could've done that. He needed to dump about $12m in salary and at least 3 roster spots that were to be taken up next season. Selling is dumping players that take up too much cap and valuable roster spots keeping the rebuild in Grand Rapids. We didn't need to sell off UFA'S for middle round picks. We needed to sell off millions of dollars for middle to low round picks. If 1st rounders weren't being offered to you for your coveted UFA'S then you may as well kept them for the remainder. The focus should've been dumping Nyquist, Helm, Ericsson, Howard, Green, contracts like that. Montreal was looking for a scoring winger, call them offer them Nyquist for a 4th or lower. At least 3 of those 5 mentioned should be on other teams today. What Holland did was not sell for a rebuild. He pawned off players he wasn't going to resign for picks that mean nothing and will probably never see the nhl, at least not until 2021. Meanwhile, we still only have  $6M in cap space for next season...that is not selling to make room for the rebuild. That is failing your fans, your team, your owners and yourself.

Look what Yzerman did with flip. That's selling. He cleared cap and a roster spot, for middle or lower pick. Just keep thinking Holland knows how to run a team, today was his chance to truly show he is a good gm. He failed miserably.

I like draft picks and was excited in the direction he seemed to be going, but he values his players too much to truly rebuild. Hence the reason he was still trying to sign Smith yesterday. Like I said at least 3 roster spots and $12M should've been freed up off next seasons roster, but you're going to once again have the highest paid team in the league with damn near the worst record. And this is what you call selling for a rebuild...

absolute fail.

R-E-L-A-X 

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5 minutes ago, loutswings said:

Holland continues to hold this team back. Selling off Smith, Jurco, Ott, and Vanek was good, but from a fan perspective I would not trust this guy to trade on my kids NHL17 game. To me, I feel the game has passed him and he and Detroit need a fresh start. 

You are right.

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W

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Ken Holland wouldn't lose sleep if he did nothing or traded a 1st for a bottom 6 defender...he's in his own world where he thinks that this is the year "2008 Franzen" turns up. Nyquist will never be any better, Helm will never be any better, Ericsson is not going to show up one day and be lidstrom. Howard will never be a Cup goalie. The time has come to cut ties with these players that were so graciously and grossly overpaid and for far too long. Highest salary in the nhl, 3rd worst record...what does Holland do? Nothing to make room for a rebuild. But, we'll see if he can clear  $12M or more over the summer...he has time, but I doubt he'll cut ties with anyone. And we'll still be the highest paid team and finish in the same group of basement dwellers...

What does any of this have to do with today?

Ericsson - Why would any team trade for an injured player at the trade deadline? Truly ask yourself this? If you were another GM, would you be skeptical trading for E and his contract? If you were, but were still leaning towards getting him, why would you do it at the trade deadline? A player like E, if traded would be traded in the summer.

Howard - See Ericsson

Nyquist - There is no need to trade Nyquist unless its a player for player trade or 1st round picks. This is the kind of guy you want to use when trying to acquire a top 4 D-man. I have no idea why you have such hate for him. Its like now that Franzen is gone you need another Swede to scapegoat.

Helm - Not going there with you again, this was the entire summer with you.

Green (I think you mentioned him earlier) - He will probably have more value next season when he is in his final year. Teams would love a player like him for a playoff run, but some teams may be hesitant about his 6mil cap-hit for next season.

Relax.

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3 hours ago, Dabura said:

If you were expecting Holland to "fix the team" this week, your expectations were misplaced.

There's no quick and easy fix for this team. We have to rebuild, and we have to be smart about how we do that. Part of that is getting the best return you can get for the assets that you've deemed expendable. So, like, sure -- maybe Holland could've moved Nyquist today. We would've enjoyed the immediate gratification, but we would've been selling low on one of our better assets, because 1) trade deadline week generally isn't the time for shopping non-rental players, and 2) Nyquist has really struggled this season. If we're really serious about fixing mistakes and doing a rebuild the right way, it makes much more sense to be patient and wait. What's the rush?

I'd like to point out again that not once have I suggested that the Trade Deadline was the quick fix or the magic bullet. My assertion will continue to be that this is another piece of the problem that is Ken Holland. His moves, whether they are contracts, trades or coaching decisions have been bad for a while now.

If people can't see that, I'm not sure they ever will.

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2 minutes ago, scotzman said:

I'd like to point out again that not once have I suggested that the Trade Deadline was the quick fix or the magic bullet. My assertion will continue to be that this is another piece of the problem that is Ken Holland. His moves, whether they are contracts, trades or coaching decisions have been bad for a while now.

If people can't see that, I'm not sure they ever will.

I think the point that many are trying to make to you, is that this is a trade deadline thread that you are using to complain about Ken Holland's performance over the past 6 years. We all get it, you are not happy with Holland, noted. Where the disconnect lies is with people who have preconceived notions about Holland and the past 6 years (I am not even debating right now if this is fair or not fair), and based on those notions/bias's are unfairly evaluating his performance today. If Holland was fired, and Yzerman came in 2 weeks ago and made identical moves to what Holland did today, simple question, would you be happy? Or unhappy?

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