Targets for the Wings

[BadgerBob 297]

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

One more point I want to make about Duchene...

55-60 points is nothing to sneeze at.

Consider:

• Kyle Turris is the Senators' 1C. This season, Turris put up 55 points in 78 games.
• Derek Stepan is the Rangers' 1C. This season, Stepan put up 55 points in 81 games.
• Ryan Johansen is the Predators' 1C. This season, Johansen put up 61 points in 82 games.
• Mikko Koivu is the Wild's 1C. This season, Koivu put up 58 points in 80 games.
• Eric Staal was arguably the Wild's 1C this season. He put up 65 points in 82 games.
• Sean Monahan is the Flames' 1C. This season, Monahan put up 58 points in 82 games.
• Claude Giroux is the Flyers' 1C. This season, Giroux put up 58 points in 82 games.
• Alexander Wennberg is the Blue Jackets' 1C (I guess?). This season, he put up 59 points in 80 games.
• Henrik Zetterberg is our best player. This season, Zetterberg put up 68 points in 82 games.

Granted, you could argue that some or most of these players do what they do in a tougher role than the one Duchene is accustomed to. But one could also argue that playing for the Avalanche has held Duchene back.

What I'm saying is Duchene is really good and quite possibly capable of being a legitimate 1C on a playoff team. In the past ten years or so, the Wings' scouting-drafting-development machinery has produced approximately one comparable centerman in Valtteri Filppula, and I think Duchene is better than Filppula ever was. The jury is out on Larkin and Athanasiou.

Kind of a down year for Giroux. Isn't he typically a ~80 point player? Just seems like he doesn't fit in a list with those guys.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

One more point I want to make about Duchene...

55-60 points is nothing to sneeze at.

Consider:

• Kyle Turris is the Senators' 1C. This season, Turris put up 55 points in 78 games.
• Derek Stepan is the Rangers' 1C. This season, Stepan put up 55 points in 81 games.
• Ryan Johansen is the Predators' 1C. This season, Johansen put up 61 points in 82 games.
• Mikko Koivu is the Wild's 1C. This season, Koivu put up 58 points in 80 games.
• Eric Staal was arguably the Wild's 1C this season. Staal put up 65 points in 82 games.
• Sean Monahan is the Flames' 1C. This season, Monahan put up 58 points in 82 games.
• Claude Giroux is the Flyers' 1C. This season, Giroux put up 58 points in 82 games.
• Alexander Wennberg is the Blue Jackets' 1C. This season, Wennberg put up 59 points in 80 games.
• Henrik Zetterberg is our best player. This season, Zetterberg put up 68 points in 82 games.

Granted, you could argue that some or most of these players do what they do in a tougher role than the one Duchene is accustomed to. But one could also argue that playing for the Avalanche has held Duchene back.

What I'm saying is Duchene is really good and quite possibly capable of being a legitimate 1C on a playoff team. In the past ten years or so, the Wings' scouting-drafting-development machinery has produced approximately one comparable centerman in Valtteri Filppula, and I think Duchene is better than Filppula ever was. The jury is out on Larkin and Athanasiou.

Duchene has broken 70 pts multiple times in the past when the Avs were a much better team. I like to defer to his highlight reels, from those you can tell he's clearly much more gifted than guys like Filppula, Tatar, or Nyquist.

[Buppy 1,720]

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

One more point I want to make about Duchene...

55-60 points is nothing to sneeze at.

Consider:

• Kyle Turris is the Senators' 1C. This season, Turris put up 55 points in 78 games.
• Derek Stepan is the Rangers' 1C. This season, Stepan put up 55 points in 81 games.
• Ryan Johansen is the Predators' 1C. This season, Johansen put up 61 points in 82 games.
• Mikko Koivu is the Wild's 1C. This season, Koivu put up 58 points in 80 games.
• Eric Staal was arguably the Wild's 1C this season. Staal put up 65 points in 82 games.
• Sean Monahan is the Flames' 1C. This season, Monahan put up 58 points in 82 games.
• Claude Giroux is the Flyers' 1C. This season, Giroux put up 58 points in 82 games.
• Alexander Wennberg is the Blue Jackets' 1C. This season, Wennberg put up 59 points in 80 games.
• Henrik Zetterberg is our best player. This season, Zetterberg put up 68 points in 82 games.

Granted, you could argue that some or most of these players do what they do in a tougher role than the one Duchene is accustomed to. But one could also argue that playing for the Avalanche has held Duchene back.

What I'm saying is Duchene is really good and quite possibly capable of being a legitimate 1C on a playoff team. In the past ten years or so, the Wings' scouting-drafting-development machinery has produced approximately one comparable centerman in Valtteri Filppula, and I think Duchene is better than Filppula ever was. The jury is out on Larkin and Athanasiou.

And none of them were traded for a 45-point player plus a top-10 pick plus a good prospect.

I don't think anyone is really arguing that Duchene isn't a good player, just that he isn't capable of carrying a team. If he's being held back by a bad Avs team, why would anything be different on a bad Wings team? 

Basically, the only way Duchene would work out here is if our kids turn out as good or better than him so he doesn't have to carry us. But if that happens then we don't need him. We'd be better off trading him for a defenseman. Maybe get Liljegren from the Avs after they take him with our #9. 

14 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Duchene has broken 70 pts multiple times in the past when the Avs were a much better team. I like to defer to his highlight reels, from those you can tell he's clearly much more gifted than guys like Filppula, Tatar, or Nyquist.

He has hit 70 points once. Came close one other time at 67, and had 43 in the lockout year. Sure, he's better than Flip, Tatar, or Nyquist. Just not that much better.

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Buppy

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

29 minutes ago, Buppy said:

And none of them were traded for a 45-point player plus a top-10 pick plus a good prospect.

I don't think anyone is really arguing that Duchene isn't a good player, just that he isn't capable of carrying a team. If he's being held back by a bad Avs team, why would anything be different on a bad Wings team? 

Basically, the only way Duchene would work out here is if our kids turn out as good or better than him so he doesn't have to carry us. But if that happens then we don't need him. We'd be better off trading him for a defenseman. Maybe get Liljegren from the Avs after they take him with our #9. 

He has hit 70 points once. Came close one other time at 67, and had 43 in the lockout year. Sure, he's better than Flip, Tatar, or Nyquist. Just not that much better.

 

My bad, I think I was looking at his last season in the OHL. He was nearly a point per game 2012-2014, then the Avs dropped off and so did he. Again, I don't think we need him, or are even capable of getting him, but that dude has some of the filthiest dangles in the league.

EDIT: I see Duchene as a high-end 2nd line center like Kesler. I would easily swap one of Tatar or Nyquist for a Duchene or Kesler straight up.

Edited June 14, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

RUMORS: Lots of trade talk surrounding Derek Stepan. MTL listening to offers on Galchenyuk.

Ottawa will not re-sign Chris Neil. Sort of an end to an era there for the Senators.

[Dabura 12,232]

21 hours ago, Buppy said:

And none of them were traded for a 45-point player plus a top-10 pick plus a good prospect.

Brent Burns was traded for a 45-point player plus a first-round pick plus a good prospect.

Look, I don't have my heart set on Duchene. I don't think we're a Matt Duchene away from re-establishing ourselves as a perennial contender. I don't think we can magically fix all of our problems with one big trade. But I do think we have holes that are not easily filled (it's easier to find a 45-point winger than it is to find a 60-point centerman), and I do think that Duchene could, potentially, fill one of these holes right now and serve as a stepping stone for our rebuild. Our focus should be drafting and developing, but I don't want to live or die by it. I'd love to trade Tatar/Nyquist and a pick/prospect for a top D prospect like Fleury, but that and the hypothetical Duchene trade are probably equally unlikely to happen.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Dabura

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/galchenyuk-situation-montreal-reminiscent-seguin-192134676.html

CRL,

What would you offer for Galcheynuk?  I think Nyquist and a 2nd might get it done.  

I don't think that would be near enough to get it done. I'd have interest in Galchenyuk, the same way I would Duchene, but I wouldn't be willing to massively overpay like I think we would have to to get them.

[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Brent Burns was traded for a 45-point player plus a first-round pick plus a good prospect.

Look, I don't have my heart set on Duchene. I don't think we're a Matt Duchene away from re-establishing ourselves as a perennial contender. I don't think we can magically fix all of our problems with one big trade. But I do think we have holes that are not easily filled (it's easier to find a 45-point winger than it is to find a 60-point centerman), and I do think that Duchene could, potentially, fill one of these holes right now and serve as a stepping stone for our rebuild. Our focus should be drafting and developing, but I don't want to live or die by it. I'd love to trade Tatar/Nyquist and a pick/prospect for a top D prospect like Fleury, but that and the hypothetical Duchene trade are probably equally unlikely to happen.

I thought you'd throw out Jeff Carter, then I could have said "How'd that work out for Columbus?". Victory! But you ruined it, thanks a lot. Burns doesn't quite fit, since it was a late 1st plus SJ got a 2nd back.

I think the #9 plus Saarijarvi (or a similar prospect) is just too much to pay for what is a fairly minor upgrade over Tatar/Nyquist. It could be worth it in the right situation...if Duchene actually was the piece we thought would put us over the top...just not in our current situation. Short term it's only a small upgrade, plus probably pushes Larkin to the wing. Long term, assuming Duchene even stays around past UFA, I don't think it helps unless a lot of other things go well. But if things do go well, it removes a lot of the need for someone like Duchene.

I get that center is a position of concern, and that he could potentially solidify our top-6 centers for many years. And sure, that'd be a good thing. Just not #9 + Nyquist good. Our 2nd instead would be worth it, and I'd do that if I was convinced that we couldn't get a defenseman. I would probably do the #9 alone, but that would have to come with a few extra moves to make the cap work. But I don't think trading Duchene for a forward makes sense for the Avs unless they're getting overpaid. Similarly I don't think it makes sense for us unless we're underpaying.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/galchenyuk-situation-montreal-reminiscent-seguin-192134676.html

 

CRL,

 

What would you offer for Galcheynuk?  I think Nyquist and a 2nd might get it done.  

Not interested in forwards at all. I don't think swapping forwards will help us, unless it's a big upgrade like Duchene or more so Tavares, which I don't think we can do without selling the farm.

Edited June 15, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

20 minutes ago, Buppy said:

I thought you'd throw out Jeff Carter, then I could have said "How'd that work out for Columbus?". Victory! But you ruined it, thanks a lot. Burns doesn't quite fit, since it was a late 1st plus SJ got a 2nd back.

I think the #9 plus Saarijarvi (or a similar prospect) is just too much to pay for what is a fairly minor upgrade over Tatar/Nyquist. It could be worth it in the right situation...if Duchene actually was the piece we thought would put us over the top...just not in our current situation. Short term it's only a small upgrade, plus probably pushes Larkin to the wing. Long term, assuming Duchene even stays around past UFA, I don't think it helps unless a lot of other things go well. But if things do go well, it removes a lot of the need for someone like Duchene.

I get that center is a position of concern, and that he could potentially solidify our top-6 centers for many years. And sure, that'd be a good thing. Just not #9 + Nyquist good. Our 2nd instead would be worth it, and I'd do that if I was convinced that we couldn't get a defenseman. I would probably do the #9 alone, but that would have to come with a few extra moves to make the cap work. But I don't think trading Duchene for a forward makes sense for the Avs unless they're getting overpaid. Similarly I don't think it makes sense for us unless we're underpaying.

Exactly this for me as well. I'd trade our 2nd round pick plus Tatar / Nyquist for sure, but I wouldn't trade our 9th overall, plus for Duchene.

[amato 3,210]

Would love Galchenyuk.. I think he's one of the most underrated players on the habs. Plus he's young and could play center. But I think it'd cost too much in assets that could be used toward a defenseman.. which probably also won't happen. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Francois Beauchemin bought out be the Avs. I know the Ducks still love this guy. Could be an inexpensive addition, but I'm sure he's slowed with age, and we don't need that.

Lots of trade talk surrounding Phaneuf. He has a list of 10 teams he can be traded to (not 12 as previously reported). As most of you I'm sure remember we were rumored to have interest before he was moved to Otttawa. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Francois Beauchemin bought out be the Avs. I know the Ducks still love this guy. Could be an inexpensive addition, but I'm sure he's slowed with age, and we don't need that.

Lots of trade talk surrounding Phaneuf. He has a list of 10 teams he can be traded to (not 12 as previously reported). As most of you I'm sure remember we were rumored to have interest before he was moved to Otttawa. 

Beauchemin sucks and Phaneuf is massively overpaid. The only way I take Dion is if Ottawa want to eat half his salary and take Ericsson back in return...

[e_prime 1,936]

18 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Francois Beauchemin bought out be the Avs. I know the Ducks still love this guy. Could be an inexpensive addition, but I'm sure he's slowed with age, and we don't need that.

Lots of trade talk surrounding Phaneuf. He has a list of 10 teams he can be traded to (not 12 as previously reported). As most of you I'm sure remember we were rumored to have interest before he was moved to Otttawa. 

*waves hand*   "These are not the droids... *ahem* ...defenseman you're looking for..."

Edited June 15, 2017 by e_prime

[kickazz 5,459]

Dion Phaneuf sucks. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

Dion Phaneuf sucks. 

IDK, I thought he played really well on the 2nd pair for Ottawa. I think he's a high-end 2nd pairing guy, not a 1st pairing guy like Toronto wanted him to be.

It's his cap hit that sucks.

[e_prime 1,936]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

IDK, I thought he played really well on the 2nd pair for Ottawa. I think he's a high-end 2nd pairing guy, not a 1st pairing guy like Toronto wanted him to be.

It's his cap hit that sucks.

Nah.  He sucks.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, e_prime said:

Nah.  He sucks.

YOU SUCK

[e_prime 1,936]

I just can't wrap my head around that cap hit enough to admit that maybe he doesn't suck as hard as I think he does.  Pretty sure if you were to do some research you could find that I was okay with the Wings going after Dion... back in the day... but certainly not for his current $7million cap hit.

[kickazz 5,459]

No dude, he sucks. Even besides his cap hit. He's not that good defensively, often gets burned by players and offensively his points total isn't all that good. He had a couple of really good years in Calgary and has declined since then. 

I would rather have Brenden Smith than him. Cheaper, and probably only slightly worse overall yet better at moving the puck. 

Not to mention Phaneuf takes a lot of stupid penalties. And don't get me started on his possession metrics lol. 

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, e_prime said:

I just can't wrap my head around that cap hit enough to admit that maybe he doesn't suck as hard as I think he does.  Pretty sure if you were to do some research you could find that I was okay with the Wings going after Dion... back in the day... but certainly not for his current $7million cap hit.

Even if we're on his list of teams, there's just no way with our cap situation and there's it could possibly work out.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Yeah, he's a good 2nd pair guy being paid like a top pair guy.  I wouldn't touch him for that cap hit.

[kickazz 5,459]

The sad part is, I think Phaneuf knows he sucks. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, kickazz said:

The sad part is, I think Phaneuf knows he sucks. 

So what kind of D-man is he in your mind? A sloppy 2nds kinda guy?

[e_prime 1,936]

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

The sad part is, I think Phaneuf knows he sucks. 

I think that's part of his problem.  Too much going on in that puny brain of his. He forgets he's not as good as he is because he thinks about how much he's getting paid, and tries to do something fancy or out of his skill-set. Gets burned. Takes bad penalty.