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kliq

2017 Opening Day Roster

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4 hours ago, brett said:

so were going to have the same team same blashill same holland as last year only difference is we have daley now. CUP IS OURS

WITKOWSKI. NEW ARENA. HEALTHY HELM, ERICSSON, ABDELKADER. WITKOWSKI. WITKOWSKI. WITKOWSKI. NEW ARENA.

GET REKT, NEGATIVE NANCY.

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On 8/6/2017 at 7:23 PM, DickieDunn said:

Blash thinks da process will be better this year with his boy Witkowski on the team.  Process=Cup, no need for talent or scoring.

I know you just like to mock him so maybe I should look to much into it, but all his talk about process does make sense. With our young players, they do have learn how to train right, eat right, practice right etc. Not sure why you mock this notion everywhere. Pretty much every coach I've come across says a version of this. And results do come from that process, of course. It's also how players refine and develop these talent and scoring things you speak of.

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6 hours ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

I know you just like to mock him so maybe I should look to much into it, but all his talk about process does make sense. With our young players, they do have learn how to train right, eat right, practice right etc. Not sure why you mock this notion everywhere. Pretty much every coach I've come across says a version of this. And results do come from that process, of course. It's also how players refine and develop these talent and scoring things you speak of.

There's a difference between having expectations that young players behave in a professional manner and elevating grinders to some high status that they don't deserve.  Bowman expected players to work at both ends of the ice, but he still allowed his skilled players to be creative and wanted to keep the puck as much as possible.  Blashill seems to be content to try to win games 2-1 and get out shot by a wide margin most games, as long as they don't get blown out and look competitive.  Hard work is great, but when a player doesn't have the talent to go with it, he shouldn't be looked at like he's some key contributor.    

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

There's a difference between having expectations that young players behave in a professional manner and elevating grinders to some high status that they don't deserve.  Bowman expected players to work at both ends of the ice, but he still allowed his skilled players to be creative and wanted to keep the puck as much as possible.  Blashill seems to be content to try to win games 2-1 and get out shot by a wide margin most games, as long as they don't get blown out and look competitive.  Hard work is great, but when a player doesn't have the talent to go with it, he shouldn't be looked at like he's some key contributor.    

But your critique of Blashill's approach has little to take down the idea that dedication to a 'process" (aka good habits of training, practice, self-care) is a good thing in sports (or when trying to achieve anything in life, actually). And pretty much everybody says it whether in the same words or not. Just don't get why that phrase keeps getting mocked.

Or are you interpreting the word process as the system?

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He's elevated "process" to something more than it should be.  It's like Marinelli's "pound the rock" BS.He'd rather play guys with no real skill 14 or 15 minutes and maybe win 2-1 than give younger players who still need to grow defensively like AA and Mantha that time and win 4-3.  Beyond that, he thinks every forward needs to be some kind of defensive whiz, and that's not true.

Player A is responsible for 60 goals for, either scoring them, setting them up, or by doing something where he doesn't get a point but his actions lead to the goal (causing a turnover with a forecheck, screening the goalie etc).  He's not very good defensively, and he is responsible for 35 goals against from defensive lapses.

Player B is a defensive ace with limited offensive ability.  He is responsible for 20 goals for and 15 goals against.

Both players average 14 minutes a game.

With player A, your team is +25 goals over the course of the year.  With Player B, +5.  Other than certain situations like last minute of a game where you're leading, or the PK, Player A is the better overall player.  Blashill would rather have a team full of guys like Player B.

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8 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

He's elevated "process" to something more than it should be.  It's like Marinelli's "pound the rock" BS.He'd rather play guys with no real skill 14 or 15 minutes and maybe win 2-1 than give younger players who still need to grow defensively like AA and Mantha that time and win 4-3.  Beyond that, he thinks every forward needs to be some kind of defensive whiz, and that's not true.

Player A is responsible for 60 goals for, either scoring them, setting them up, or by doing something where he doesn't get a point but his actions lead to the goal (causing a turnover with a forecheck, screening the goalie etc).  He's not very good defensively, and he is responsible for 35 goals against from defensive lapses.

Player B is a defensive ace with limited offensive ability.  He is responsible for 20 goals for and 15 goals against.

Both players average 14 minutes a game.

With player A, your team is +25 goals over the course of the year.  With Player B, +5.  Other than certain situations like last minute of a game where you're leading, or the PK, Player A is the better overall player.  Blashill would rather have a team full of guys like Player B.

Uhhh Mantha actually played 16 minutes a night this past season... The only grinding type that got more ice time than him was Abdelakder. And Abby only saw on average about 1-2 more shifts per game which translates to about 45 seconds... And Abdelkader played both the PP and PK, whereas Mantha only played the PP, boosting Abby's minutes from special teams

AA averaged 13 and half minutes a game, not too far shy from your 14 minute mark. And only Helm, Sheahan, and Abby got more minutes. Ott, Miller, and Glendening all played less. AA was also used on the PP, and prior mentioned players all played the PK. Isn't that how you'd play them?

 

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Just now, BinMucker94 said:

Gross

That seems excessive. A little more tact is preferred. How rude.

However, you are very much correct. It will certainly be the worst defensive lineup this team has presented in 2 decades at the least. You might as well waive the last pairing and put Hicketts - random AHL complimentary defender there. Things are grim. And we'll see it live soon enough.

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3 minutes ago, Jacksoni said:

That seems excessive. A little more tact is preferred. How rude.

However, you are very much correct. It will certainly be the worst defensive lineup this team has presented in 2 decades at the least. You might as well waive the last pairing and put Hicketts - random AHL complimentary defender there. Things are grim. And we'll see it live soon enough.

Yea that last pairing is basically two pylons with hockey sticks attached. At least Hicketts can get up and down the ice. If I was running things I'd go with

Daley-Green

DK-Jensen

XO-Sproul/McIlrath/Russo 

Its not much better tho.

 

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2 hours ago, BinMucker94 said:

Yea that last pairing is basically two pylons with hockey sticks attached. At least Hicketts can get up and down the ice. If I was running things I'd go with

Daley-Green

DK-Jensen

XO-Sproul

/McIlrath/Russo 

Its not much better tho.

Exactly what I do like to see as well.

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6 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

That seems excessive. A little more tact is preferred. How rude.

However, you are very much correct. It will certainly be the worst defensive lineup this team has presented in 2 decades at the least. You might as well waive the last pairing and put Hicketts - random AHL complimentary defender there. Things are grim. And we'll see it live soon enough.

Though it's not a very good group, it should be slightly better than last year. Compared to the beginning of last year, we have Jensen instead of Marchenko and added Daley.

And maybe Ericsson's wrist surgery gets him back to playing a bit better. he was cleary bother by some issue this past year.

As for lineups with Sproul - I've seen in recent articles on our cap situation that he's questionable to be ready for the beginning of the year

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On 8/10/2017 at 0:31 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Uhhh Mantha actually played 16 minutes a night this past season... The only grinding type that got more ice time than him was Abdelakder. And Abby only saw on average about 1-2 more shifts per game which translates to about 45 seconds... And Abdelkader played both the PP and PK, whereas Mantha only played the PP, boosting Abby's minutes from special teams

AA averaged 13 and half minutes a game, not too far shy from your 14 minute mark. And only Helm, Sheahan, and Abby got more minutes. Ott, Miller, and Glendening all played less. AA was also used on the PP, and prior mentioned players all played the PK. Isn't that how you'd play them?

 

One, I wasn't talking about specific players necessarily.  Two, 14 minutes was just a number I threw out.  Three, a forward who doesn't score a single goal until the very last game of the year averaging anywhere close to 14 minutes a night, and Sheahan was at 13:58, and getting a second of PP time means your coach has gone full retard.  By then end of the year he should have been a regular healthy scratch, if not waived, regardless of the "good things" he did.  A forward's primary job is to score.  If you're not scoring much you damn well be hitting everything that moves, especially if you're a relatively big guy.

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3 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

One, I wasn't talking about specific players necessarily.  Two, 14 minutes was just a number I threw out.  Three, a forward who doesn't score a single goal until the very last game of the year averaging anywhere close to 14 minutes a night, and Sheahan was at 13:58, and getting a second of PP time means your coach has gone full retard.  By then end of the year he should have been a regular healthy scratch, if not waived, regardless of the "good things" he did.  A forward's primary job is to score.  If you're not scoring much you damn well be hitting everything that moves, especially if you're a relatively big guy.

That's what this organization is about though, things players "did." Holland holds on to these players because they had a good season or two asnd that player just might show up again if he keeps them and they keep playing, re. playoff Franzen, 2008 Franzen, player X coming off LTIR is our deadline acquisition . This organization has lost all touch with reality, and that is squarely on Holland's shoulders. I honesty don't know how he's had a job the last two seasons.

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3 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

That's what this organization is about though, things players "did." Holland holds on to these players because they had a good season or two asnd that player just might show up again if he keeps them and they keep playing, re. playoff Franzen, 2008 Franzen, player X coming off LTIR is our deadline acquisition . This organization has lost all touch with reality, and that is squarely on Holland's shoulders. I honesty don't know how he's had a job the last two seasons.

I agree to a certain extent. I think Holland is sometimes loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to mediocre bottom six forwards / bottom four defensemen. And he certainly looks after the Michigan boys. I like Abby, but there's no way he should have gotten the contract he did. Slightly overpaid in salary, and massively overpaid in term. Glendening is probably the worst contract on the team. Massively overpaid in both salary and term. DeKeyser is a solid middle six defenseman, but again, probably a little overpaid. I get that you sometimes have overpay to keep players, but these were three players that played their entire careers in Michigan, from college to Grand Rapids to Detroit, and likely would have taken a bit of a discount to continue playing in their home state. 

But moreso than the loyalty, my frustration with the organization is their desire for every single player to be a defensive stalwart, and value hard work over high skill. They want to turn every pure goal scorer into a defensive specialist, because defense wins championships... just ask Pittsburgh. Sure, we need players to be defensively responsible, but not every player needs to be a Selke candidate. I'd rather have a 30+ goal, 60+ point producer that is decent defensively, than a 15 goal, 30 point producer that is an ace defensively. Management seems to prefer the latter though, and have the former improve his defense at the expense of his offense...

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Abby played a season in Cedar Rapids. That's where he was drafted from, but I agree. Even as much as I love Michigan born and bread players, he really seems to coddle them...not as much as Swedish born players, but still...

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree to a certain extent. I think Holland is sometimes loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to mediocre bottom six forwards / bottom four defensemen. And he certainly looks after the Michigan boys. I like Abby, but there's no way he should have gotten the contract he did. Slightly overpaid in salary, and massively overpaid in term. Glendening is probably the worst contract on the team. Massively overpaid in both salary and term. DeKeyser is a solid middle six defenseman, but again, probably a little overpaid. I get that you sometimes have overpay to keep players, but these were three players that played their entire careers in Michigan, from college to Grand Rapids to Detroit, and likely would have taken a bit of a discount to continue playing in their home state. 

But moreso than the loyalty, my frustration with the organization is their desire for every single player to be a defensive stalwart, and value hard work over high skill. They want to turn every pure goal scorer into a defensive specialist, because defense wins championships... just ask Pittsburgh. Sure, we need players to be defensively responsible, but not every player needs to be a Selke candidate. I'd rather have a 30+ goal, 60+ point producer that is decent defensively, than a 15 goal, 30 point producer that is an ace defensively. Management seems to prefer the latter though, and have the former improve his defense at the expense of his offense...

EXACTLY

tenor.gif

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree to a certain extent. I think Holland is sometimes loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to mediocre bottom six forwards / bottom four defensemen. And he certainly looks after the Michigan boys. I like Abby, but there's no way he should have gotten the contract he did. Slightly overpaid in salary, and massively overpaid in term. Glendening is probably the worst contract on the team. Massively overpaid in both salary and term. DeKeyser is a solid middle six defenseman, but again, probably a little overpaid. I get that you sometimes have overpay to keep players, but these were three players that played their entire careers in Michigan, from college to Grand Rapids to Detroit, and likely would have taken a bit of a discount to continue playing in their home state. 

But moreso than the loyalty, my frustration with the organization is their desire for every single player to be a defensive stalwart, and value hard work over high skill. They want to turn every pure goal scorer into a defensive specialist, because defense wins championships... just ask Pittsburgh. Sure, we need players to be defensively responsible, but not every player needs to be a Selke candidate. I'd rather have a 30+ goal, 60+ point producer that is decent defensively, than a 15 goal, 30 point producer that is an ace defensively. Management seems to prefer the latter though, and have the former improve his defense at the expense of his offense...

Agreed, very good points. I think Holland has always been this way, but when there was no salary cap and it was high end players, it was considered genius

I think all of us talking logically can agree that Hollands strengths as a GM are the ability to establish a great culture within the organization, the ability to retain players and for the most part acquire the UFA's he wants. I know some like to say we can't acquire UFA's because of Suter and Niskanen, but when you look at the last 20 years he almost always get the players he wants. 

Loyalty to a fault I can agree with, Lefty's over the top rants about Loyalty being such a bad thing and the motive for everything he does, I call BS on (ie. Tatar was re-signed only because of "loyalty").

When we were an elite team, and the players he kept were elite, everybody loved him. Now that we haven't been able to acquire an elite player in a very long time, he is doing the same thing, but it's with mediocre/good players and he appears to be clueless in understanding the salary cap ramifications. But the bigger problem is he appears to be scared to take ANY risks, hence his over reliance on vets.

I dont think this team is screwed like some believe, and luckily to this point we haven't lost anyone of note because of these contracts (sorry, but I dont count Ferrero, Frk, Nesty, and Pulk as players of note) and if Holland could make just a few trades and dump just a few contracts I think we would be just fine. Trade away E, Howard, and Nielsen and our cap situation changes considerably. That would be about 15mil not even counting Green's 6mil coming off in the off season. The problem is I don't think he see's it as a problem. I know people will say you can't trade those players, but I think you can trade at least some of them. NOBODY though Shanny could trade a healthy Clarkson, and he did. Just need to be creative. 

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Holland used to move on if he needed to.  He let Lapointe walk when he got a big offer from Boston.  He traded for Hasek even though we had Osgood, and Osgood and Holland are really close.  Now, if he had a chance to get an elite level player at the cost of someone on the roster who was "home grown" and he was close to, I don't think he'd pull the trigger.

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Take late round picks in return and those guys are very tradeable. But Holland over values them and still believes that the 8 year ago versions of them are bound to show up, they just will, trust him.

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12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree to a certain extent. I think Holland is sometimes loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to mediocre bottom six forwards / bottom four defensemen. And he certainly looks after the Michigan boys. I like Abby, but there's no way he should have gotten the contract he did. Slightly overpaid in salary, and massively overpaid in term. Glendening is probably the worst contract on the team. Massively overpaid in both salary and term. DeKeyser is a solid middle six defenseman, but again, probably a little overpaid. I get that you sometimes have overpay to keep players, but these were three players that played their entire careers in Michigan, from college to Grand Rapids to Detroit, and likely would have taken a bit of a discount to continue playing in their home state. 

But moreso than the loyalty, my frustration with the organization is their desire for every single player to be a defensive stalwart, and value hard work over high skill. They want to turn every pure goal scorer into a defensive specialist, because defense wins championships... just ask Pittsburgh. Sure, we need players to be defensively responsible, but not every player needs to be a Selke candidate. I'd rather have a 30+ goal, 60+ point producer that is decent defensively, than a 15 goal, 30 point producer that is an ace defensively. Management seems to prefer the latter though, and have the former improve his defense at the expense of his offense...

I very much doubt the Michigan thing being true. Just a coincidence. Helm was similarly well treated.

I think it's obvious that Abby is seen as part of the leadership core. He can play in all situations, and anywhere in the lineup. And he's not even in the top 120 forwards in cap hit. He's paid like a solid secondary player, which is what he had been. Overpaid if he ends up playing 4th line scoring 20 points, sure, but not if he's scoring 40. The term I think is meaningless since I think he's a career Wing anyway. Dekeyser is paid like a low-end top-pair/good 2nd pair. Certainly didn't perform like one this last year, but I'd argue that he did over the previous three years. Glendening, yeah, might be the worst. But it's a fairly low-end contract, and similar to deals given to similar players in the past.

Your second paragraph is just a laughable exaggeration. None of Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, or Mantha are great defenseively, or expected to be, but were all in our top 7 forwards in ice time. Zetterberg and Nielsen are good defensively, but also two of our best scorers. The other guy in the top 7 was Abby, and he was also one of our top scorers the previous two seasons. 

Even if defense was the sole reason AA's ice time was so low, it'd still be a gross exaggeration. But I don't believe that's the case. Most of the players ahead of him in ice time are, have been, or could be expected to be, good offensively as well. I'm sure that, in a way, the fact that AA (and Vanek) produced well with limited ice time was a factor in keeping the ice time limited. In the "those guys are doing well, don't need to worry about them, let's try to get these other guys going" sense. (Yeah, didn't work, and some criticism is warranted for sticking to that too stubbornly, but would have looked brilliant had Abby and Sheahan had career years in the good sense rather than the bad.) Of course AA would get more time if he was better defensively...as a more versatile and well rounded player should...but I don't think you can conclude that he would get more if he were better defensively and proportionately worse offensively, nor even if it did would your depiction of our philosophy be anywhere close to accurate.

9 hours ago, kliq said:

... he appears to be clueless in understanding the salary cap ramifications. But the bigger problem is he appears to be scared to take ANY risks, hence his over reliance on vets.

I dont think this team is screwed like some believe, and luckily to this point we haven't lost anyone of note because of these contracts (sorry, but I dont count Ferrero, Frk, Nesty, and Pulk as players of note) and if Holland could make just a few trades and dump just a few contracts I think we would be just fine. Trade away E, Howard, and Nielsen and our cap situation changes considerably. That would be about 15mil not even counting Green's 6mil coming off in the off season. The problem is I don't think he see's it as a problem. I know people will say you can't trade those players, but I think you can trade at least some of them. NOBODY though Shanny could trade a healthy Clarkson, and he did. Just need to be creative. 

People make way too big a deal of the cap. As you say we haven't lost anyone of note, and in fact have been able to add UFAs every year. We were in a good spot to got after Suter/Parise, Niskanen, Stamkos had he gone to free agency...wouldn't be at all surprised if we find a way to take a run at Tavares if he's available (though I hope not, but that's another discussion). Holland getting rid of Datsyuk's hit and his ability to leverage LTIR is nothing if not creative. And while I'm sure it would make a lot of people feel better if we were closer to the floor rather than fighting the ceiling, cap space isn't going to make the team better. Free agents just aren't that good, and all the money in the world isn't going to make better players available.

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10 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Take late round picks in return and those guys are very tradeable. But Holland over values them and still believes that the 8 year ago versions of them are bound to show up, they just will, trust him.

Why would anyone want a guy like Helm, Ericsson, Glendening, etc. at their current cap hits?  

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