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kliq

2017 Opening Day Roster

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133 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

It's not the production, I'm good with that, it's this attitude problem saying that if they award him 1 yr. It'll be his last season in Detroit. I don't want that here. I'm a big Tatar and Mrazek fan, but if they are cancers in the room, they need to go.

Well and he can score, sure... but he scored 25 goals and didn't break 50 points.  He's more one-dimensional.... We can trade him for futures and develop Svech to take over his position.

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

AA isn't getting that much

Take out the trash and fire Holland and Blash!!!!!!
 

AA will get around 1.75-2.25 million.  Similar to Sheahan's last deal.  Count on it.  You keep it up with that tagline.  I agree with you, but it's just beyond annoying since it's in several different topics.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Well, right now I turn my attention to AA and Tatar can have what's left. Because we have roughly $6.2M left after Franzen and AA is more important to the future of this club. I got a feeling it's going to coat us more than $1.2M for him, so that leaves less than $5M for Tatar. If Tatar gets the $5.5M or $6M he wants, then what? If I'm making a choice, I choose AA.

Holland will make it work. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. The situation is not "Holland was under the impression that Tatar and Athanasiou would sign for peanuts, so he went out and signed Daley and Witkowski, but then Tatar and Athanasiou didn't want to sign for peanuts, and now we're probably going to lose Tatar or Athanasiou."

2 hours ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Well and he can score, sure... but he scored 25 goals and didn't break 50 points.  He's more one-dimensional.... We can trade him for futures and develop Svech to take over his position.

I repeat: Tatar is arguably our best player not named Zetterberg.

He scores goals. The hardest thing to do in the NHL is score goals. Again: over the past three seasons, only 30 players have scored more goals.

He's shown he's good for at 20 goals and 45 points. The same can't be said of the vast majority of our forwards.
He's shown he's a very good possession driver. The same can't be said of the vast majority of our forwards.
He's shown that he can do what he does in a demanding, non-sheltered role. The same can't be said of the vast majority of our forwards.

Tatar and Nyquist are our top wingers right now. They've established themselves as respectable first-liners. With a better power play and a better supporting cast (especially on the back end), they're probably 55-60 point players. The jury is out on Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou. Svechnikov is totally unproven at the NHL level. There's no guarantee that any of these players will become a perennial all-star.

Trading Tatar for futures so we can "develop [insert younger forward]" makes no sense. We can keep Tatar and still develop younger players. Remove Tatar and we're short a top-line winger (and a mentor for younger players), and it becomes that much harder for our team to manufacture offense and score goals and win games. Tatar routinely goes up against top players and holds his own. Do we want to throw a kid into that role? Even if he can handle it, is that what's best for the kid? Is it what's best for the team? Does it push the rebuild forward in a meaningful way, or is it just change for the sake of change?

Tatar and Nyquist are not problematic. Our most fundamental problem is that we lack top-tier talent. That's not on Tatar and Nyquist; they are what they are, and what they are is very good.

Edited by Dabura

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4 hours ago, Dabura said:

...

Tatar and Nyquist are not problematic. Our most fundamental problem is that we lack top-tier talent. That's not on Tatar and Nyquist; they are what they are, and what they are is very good.

I agree. We shouldn't be looking to trade Tatar and / or Nyquist for draft picks and / or prospects, unless that prospect is a high end defensive prospect, similar to the Drouin for Sergachev trade. Not saying that Nyquist / Tatar equal Drouin, but I think either in a package could get a similar type player. There are teams out there loaded with defensive prospects, and lacking offense. I'm sure there could be a deal made, but for whatever reason, Holland is unwilling / unable to pull off such a trade. We will continue to build through the draft and free agency. Who needs trades anyway? We like our team...

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Tatar can score, no doubt. But he is small and has a bad shoulder which makes me uncertain as to what position to take against him. I would be weary signing him to a long term deal. Need proof about that shoulder first.

I'm fine with a costly 1-year deal. If he performs this season, he'll get paid, either by us or any entity bidding over us. It's not a win-win but given the situation that's the stance I would take. I have had my share of injuries; if his injury is chronic he is a 3rd pairing for a few years at best I think.

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5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree. We shouldn't be looking to trade Tatar and / or Nyquist for draft picks and / or prospects, unless that prospect is a high end defensive prospect, similar to the Drouin for Sergachev trade. Not saying that Nyquist / Tatar equal Drouin, but I think either in a package could get a similar type player. There are teams out there loaded with defensive prospects, and lacking offense. I'm sure there could be a deal made, but for whatever reason, Holland is unwilling / unable to pull off such a trade. We will continue to build through the draft and free agency. Who needs trades anyway? We like our team...

Hards are trade.

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(Now watch me be completely wrong. Tatar gets a one-year deal and we trade him for a stud defenseman at the deadline.)

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Opening Night at LCA

 

Tatar - Zetterberg - Mantha

Athanasiou - Nielsen - Nyquist

Svechnikov - Larkin - Sheahan

Abdelkader - Helm - Witkowski

Glendenning

 

Daley - Green

DeKeyser - Jensen

Oulette - Kronwall

Ericsson

Sproul

 

Howard

Mrazek

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Tatar and Nyquist are secondary scorers, nothing more. Soon we will have 9+ million tied up into the 2 of them and they can produce 40 goals between them. As our major offensive threats they don't score 40. That is the problem. Would we be a better team with Nyquist, tatar, and AA or Tavaras, Svechnikov, and Rasmussen? Give me the later group. Now is that possible? Maybe.

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3 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

Tatar can score, no doubt. But he is small and has a bad shoulder which makes me uncertain as to what position to take against him. I would be weary signing him to a long term deal. Need proof about that shoulder first.

I'm fine with a costly 1-year deal. If he performs this season, he'll get paid, either by us or any entity bidding over us. It's not a win-win but given the situation that's the stance I would take. I have had my share of injuries; if his injury is chronic he is a 3rd pairing for a few years at best I think.

Is his shoulder still messed up? I just assumed he was getting it taken care of this off season.

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2 minutes ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

Is his shoulder still messed up? I just assumed he was getting it taken care of this off season.

I think he was playing on a bad shoulder most of the year. Holland said he expects everyone to arrive at camp healthy.

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14 minutes ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

Is his shoulder still messed up? I just assumed he was getting it taken care of this off season.

 

11 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think he was playing on a bad shoulder most of the year. Holland said he expects everyone to arrive at camp healthy.

He was playing hurt all season from the get-go. He had surgery as soon as we got smoked. The details about the injury and healing process has not been disclosed, likely for good reasons - both parties has/have his negotiation which is playing out right now.

I hope he's good to go at puck drop, but for me that's not remotely possible. Hands, which he has, needs continuous practice. Use your own logic to determine how likely he's in prime shape even if the surgery was successful. Those who has been in a cast for a month can probably attest to my point.

Ties to my logic a few posts prior as to payment and contract length.

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What was the injury? Something that might affect him the stuff off his career, or has a real risk of recurring? Or is it something where he'll be somewhat limited fir 6-12 months then he fine? If it's the first two, let someone else take the risk. If it's the last, there is no more risk than any other contract

Sent by my minions via telepathy

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

What was the injury? Something that might affect him the stuff off his career, or has a real risk of recurring? Or is it something where he'll be somewhat limited fir 6-12 months then he fine? If it's the first two, let someone else take the risk. If it's the last, there is no more risk than any other contract

Sent by my minions via telepathy
 

Every report I have read simply says  "shoulder surgery". So who knows.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Richdg said:

Tatar and Nyquist are secondary scorers, nothing more.

Secondary scorers who have consistently performed like respectable first-line scoring wingers.

Nyquist 2014-15
Nyquist 2015-16
Nyquist 2016-17

Tatar 2014-15
Tatar 2015-16
Tatar 2016-17

9 hours ago, Richdg said:

Soon we will have 9+ million tied up into the 2 of them

And?

9 hours ago, Richdg said:

and they can produce 40 goals between them.

...And?

9 hours ago, Richdg said:

As our major offensive threats they don't score 40. That is the problem.

It would be a problem if they were getting paid like Kane, Crosby, Stamkos, McDavid, Ovechkin. Fortunately, they're not. Nyquist's cap hit is $4.75M. Tatar is coming off a value contract and is reportedly asking for Oshie money, in terms of the cap hit. Which makes sense, as he and Oshie are roughly the same player.

Speaking of Oshie, you know how much money the Caps have tied up in Oshie (their 1RW) + Kuznetsov (their 2C)? Oshie (age: 30) is $5.75M against their cap until 2025. Kuznetsov is $7.8M against their cap until 2025. That's $13.5M every year for the next 400 years.

How many times has Oshie scored 40 goals? How many times has Kuznetsov scored 40 goals? How many of their past several seasons were spent on a middling post-Lidstrom Red Wings team? How much has playing for some powerhouse Capitals teams boosted Kuznetsov's impressive point totals? Food for thought.

9 hours ago, Richdg said:

Would we be a better team with Nyquist, tatar, and AA or Tavaras, Svechnikov, and Rasmussen?

Why not all six? Unload Green ($6M) and Mrazek ($4M) and Sheahan ($2.075M) and, when the time comes, LTIRetire Kronwall. BOOM! Cap space.

Look, I'm not firmly opposed to trading Tatar. Actually, there's a part of me that's kind of hoping he gets a one-year deal and we end up trading him. Having two prime slabs of trade bait in Green and Tatar could, potentially, accelerate the rebuild in a big way. It could establish the rebuilding effort as a "rebuild-on-the-fly" effort that might actually have more than a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding. Next year's draft class is shaping up to be really good; if Holland could somehow turn Green and Tatar into two additional 2018 first-round picks...

House.jpg

And even if we don't get any additional 1sts, I'm guessing we still get a solid return. (And it's not like there aren't players I wouldn't take over a first-round pick.) And that's the only thing, really. If we're trading Tatar, I want a really good return. I don't want "Well, Tatar's just a secondary scorer [who ranks 31st in goals scored over the past three seasons and can score 25 goals on a team that can't score goals] and we have Svechnikov, so, basically, Tatar is holding us back and he needs to go." Fortunately, Holland wouldn't be so cavalier. (...Right?) If Tatar gets a multi-year deal, it's going to be a good deal (assuming his shoulder isn't A Thing). If Tatar gets a one-year deal and we trade him, it's going to be a good return. I have my problems with Holland, but I'm sure the gravity of this situation isn't lost on him.

Edited by Dabura

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I missed the 't after can. As in can't score 40 goals between them. They don't make others around them better. They are run of the mill average players in the league.

As for your question about why not all 6? Not enough roster positions. Z, neilsson, Abby, Larkin, mantha, Rasmussen, Svechnikov, AA, and Helm as your top 9. Ok we move AA, Nyquist, and tatar and get tavaras? we can only hope. That is also the minimum it would take to get a guy like him. Yes there is risk becasue Rasmussen and Svechnikov may need another year or 2. But now your top 9 is something like this:

Z-tavaras-Mantha

Abby-Larkin-Svechnikov

Rasmussen-Neilsson-Helm

Not bad at all.

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1 minute ago, Richdg said:

I missed the 't after can. As in can't score 40 goals between them.

2014-15: Nyquist scored 27 goals, Tatar scored 29 goals. 27 + 29 = 56. That's more than 40.

2015-16: Nyquist scored 17 goals, Tatar scored 21 goals. 17 + 21 = 38. Call it 40.

2016-17: Nyquist scored 12 goals, Tatar scored 25 goals. 12 + 25 = 37. Call it 40.

If our power play doesn't go to hell when Babcock and Hiller leave, their 2015-16 and 2016-17 numbers are significantly better.

I still have no idea why Nyquist wasn't kept in the slot on the power play. He was lethal in that role in 2014-15. And the power play was lethal with him in that role in 2014-15. Hmmm....

(P.S. This whole combined 40 goals thing is arbitrary and dumb.)

8 minutes ago, Richdg said:

They don't make others around them better.

Based on what?

13 minutes ago, Richdg said:

They are run of the mill average players in the league.

Run-of-the-mill players who have consistently performed like respectable top-line scoring wingers. And one of them ranks 31st in goals scored over the past three seasons. Meaning only 30 players in the league have scored more goals than he has over the past three seasons.

Nyquist and Tatar are not The Problem. Though, moving one of them could, in theory, be part of The Solution.

22 minutes ago, Richdg said:

As for your question about why not all 6? Not enough roster positions.

Svechnikov and Bertuzzi are probably another year away from full-time duty. Rasmussen is years away, and that's assuming he ever reaches the NHL. I have no great love for Helm, Sheahan, Glendening, Witkowski, Abdelkader; we could trade all of them, for all I care. These are run-of-the-mill players.

Like I said, unloading a few non-essential players could get us the cap space we'd need to sign Tavares. Larkin and Mantha are due for substantial raises, but we could make it work if we really wanted to. Moving Tatar would help the cause, yes. LTIRetiring Kronwall would also help. If Mrazek's on his way out, that also helps. We don't need all of Sproul, Ouellet, Jensen, Russo, McIlrath.

Point being: you're presenting a false dilemma. In theory, we could keep two or all three of Nyquist, Tatar, Athanasiou and still have room for Tavares. And Svechnikov will be playing for peanuts for the next several years. And, honestly, Rasmussen shouldn't even be in the picture at this point in time.

Nyquist, Tatar/Bertuzzi, Larkin, Mantha, Nielsen, Tavares, Zetterberg, Svechnikov, Athanasiou. That could be our top nine next year. In theory.

It's not happening, of course. And, no, that's not on Nyquist and Tatar.

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1 hour ago, Dabura said:

2014-15: Nyquist scored 27 goals, Tatar scored 29 goals. 27 + 29 = 56. That's more than 40.

2015-16: Nyquist scored 17 goals, Tatar scored 21 goals. 17 + 21 = 38. Call it 40.

2016-17: Nyquist scored 12 goals, Tatar scored 25 goals. 12 + 25 = 37. Call it 40.

If our power play doesn't go to hell when Babcock and Hiller leave, their 2015-16 and 2016-17 numbers are significantly better.

I still have no idea why Nyquist wasn't kept in the slot on the power play. He was lethal in that role in 2014-15. And the power play was lethal with him in that role in 2014-15. Hmmm....

(P.S. This whole combined 40 goals thing is arbitrary and dumb.)

Based on what?

Run-of-the-mill players who have consistently performed like respectable top-line scoring wingers. And one of them ranks 31st in goals scored over the past three seasons. Meaning only 30 players in the league have scored more goals than he has over the past three seasons.

Nyquist and Tatar are not The Problem. Though, moving one of them could, in theory, be part of The Solution.

Svechnikov and Bertuzzi are probably another year away from full-time duty. Rasmussen is years away, and that's assuming he ever reaches the NHL. I have no great love for Helm, Sheahan, Glendening, Witkowski, Abdelkader; we could trade all of them, for all I care. These are run-of-the-mill players.

Like I said, unloading a few non-essential players could get us the cap space we'd need to sign Tavares. Larkin and Mantha are due for substantial raises, but we could make it work if we really wanted to. Moving Tatar would help the cause, yes. LTIRetiring Kronwall would also help. If Mrazek's on his way out, that also helps. We don't need all of Sproul, Ouellet, Jensen, Russo, McIlrath.

Point being: you're presenting a false dilemma. In theory, we could keep two or all three of Nyquist, Tatar, Athanasiou and still have room for Tavares. And Svechnikov will be playing for peanuts for the next several years. And, honestly, Rasmussen shouldn't even be in the picture at this point in time.

Nyquist, Tatar/Bertuzzi, Larkin, Mantha, Nielsen, Tavares, Zetterberg, Svechnikov, Athanasiou. That could be our top nine next year. In theory.

It's not happening, of course. And, no, that's not on Nyquist and Tatar.

You are funny. Nyquist will never repeat his career start. NEVER. A nearly 20% shooting % is not sustainable. By anyone. Z's is around 10% and he is twice the player Nyquist will ever be. Tatar is a sniper and that is it. He will always have more goals than assists-meaning he dosn't help those around him. We have much better players coming behind them already here.

Nyquist doesn't play in the slot because he spends most of his time at the position lying on the ice after he gets knocked down. That is also Mantha and Svechnikovs best position-both are much much better than Nyquist. Bert is not nor will he ever be a top 9 F, neither is Helm btw but you have to fill the position.

The cold hard trueth is we need to add top end talent. Be it a top 2 Dman or a true #1. To get guys like that you have to give up value. If the options are give up Nyquist and/or tatar to fill one of those holes or a Mantha or Svechnikov to fill one of those holes you move the expensive guys that are maxed out. Mantha is a future 30 goal man and Svechnikov may be as well. Same with rasmussen. Something that neither Nyquist or Tatar will ever be.

All that being said, do I expect Nyquist and tatar on our opening night roster? Yes. Why? Becasue Holland is too afraid to make a trade.

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, Richdg said:

You are funny. Nyquist will never repeat his career start. NEVER. A nearly 20% shooting % is not sustainable. By anyone. Z's is around 10% and he is twice the player Nyquist will ever be. Tatar is a sniper and that is it. He will always have more goals than assists-meaning he dosn't help those around him. We have much better players coming behind them already here.

Nyquist doesn't play in the slot because he spends most of his time at the position lying on the ice after he gets knocked down. That is also Mantha and Svechnikovs best position-both are much much better than Nyquist. Bert is not nor will he ever be a top 9 F, neither is Helm btw but you have to fill the position.

The cold hard trueth is we need to add top end talent. Be it a top 2 Dman or a true #1. To get guys like that you have to give up value. If the options are give up Nyquist and/or tatar to fill one of those holes or a Mantha or Svechnikov to fill one of those holes you move the expensive guys that are maxed out. Mantha is a future 30 goal man and Svechnikov may be as well. Same with rasmussen. Something that neither Nyquist or Tatar will ever be.

All that being said, do I expect Nyquist and tatar on our opening night roster? Yes. Why? Becasue Holland is too afraid to make a trade.

Except... ya know... the multiple seasons where he had more assists than goals....

Being that you're overly obsessed with the draft, I understand that you like prospects, but come on man, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Svechnikov is better than Nyquist at this point of his career or in the future. We hope he will be, but hope does not make it so.

And how long are you going to cling to this tired narrative that Bertuzzi was a bad draft pick? Since 2013 he's demonstrated that he is one of our most valuable selections, probably the most valuable outside of the 1st round.

I actually agree with the overall case your trying to make. But the only thing that is "funny" is the way your trying to make it.

 

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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2 hours ago, Richdg said:

You are funny. Nyquist will never repeat his career start. NEVER. A nearly 20% shooting % is not sustainable. By anyone. Z's is around 10% and he is twice the player Nyquist will ever be. Tatar is a sniper and that is it. He will always have more goals than assists-meaning he dosn't help those around him. We have much better players coming behind them already here.

Nyquist doesn't play in the slot because he spends most of his time at the position lying on the ice after he gets knocked down. That is also Mantha and Svechnikovs best position-both are much much better than Nyquist. Bert is not nor will he ever be a top 9 F, neither is Helm btw but you have to fill the position.

The cold hard trueth is we need to add top end talent. Be it a top 2 Dman or a true #1. To get guys like that you have to give up value. If the options are give up Nyquist and/or tatar to fill one of those holes or a Mantha or Svechnikov to fill one of those holes you move the expensive guys that are maxed out. Mantha is a future 30 goal man and Svechnikov may be as well. Same with rasmussen. Something that neither Nyquist or Tatar will ever be.

All that being said, do I expect Nyquist and tatar on our opening night roster? Yes. Why? Becasue Holland is too afraid to make a trade.

I'm pretty sure you can't say for sure that Bertuzzi won't be a top 9F, especially considering the fact that he has excelled with the Griffins over the past few seasons and has been very consistent.  I'm not saying he'll be top 6, but I would be very confident in saying he'll be a 3rd line forward with some scoring ability that can flex to the top lines at times when injuries occur.

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

You are funny. Nyquist will never repeat his career start. NEVER.

I'm not saying he will. (Though, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to say he's capable of doing it.) I'm saying he and Tatar have consistently performed like respectable top-line wingers -- and they have. I'm saying your argument that Nyquist and Tatar are average, run-of-the-mill players is dumb -- and it is. I'm saying your argument that Nyquist and Tatar can't score 40 goals between them is dumb -- and it is.

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

Tatar is a sniper and that is it. He will always have more goals than assists-meaning he dosn't help those around him.

  1. Tatar had more assists than goals in 2013-14 and 2015-16.
  2. Having more goals than assists does not equal "doesn't help those around him." Tatar puts up points and drives possession. He does what a top-six winger should do. He does what a solid (if unspectacular) top-line scoring winger should do.
  3. Nyquist had more assists than goals in 2015-16 and 2016-17.
16 hours ago, Richdg said:

We have much better players coming behind them already here.

Name them, and make a strong case for why they're all "much better players."

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

Nyquist doesn't play in the slot because he spends most of his time at the position lying on the ice after he gets knocked down.

2014-15: 14 power play goals, 24 power play points. He was lethal in that role.

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

That is also Mantha and Svechnikovs best position

How much power play action have they seen at the NHL level? How many power play points have they put up at the NHL level?

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

both are much much better than Nyquist.

You've totally convinced me. The evidence is overwhelming.

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

Bert is not nor will he ever be a top 9 F

But Svechnikov is definitely much better than Nyquist and Rasmussen should definitely get a look in the top nine in 2017-18.

Seems legit.

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

The cold hard trueth is we need to add top end talent.

Agreed.

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

To get guys like that you have to give up value.

Or you draft them.

(Wait, so you think average, run-of-the-mill Nyquist/Tatar could get us a top-end player? That would seem to imply they're not average, run-of-the-mill players.)

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

If the options are give up Nyquist and/or tatar to fill one of those holes or a Mantha or Svechnikov to fill one of those holes you move the expensive guys that are maxed out.

I'm ok with trading Nyquist or Tatar if we get a really good return that helps advance the rebuild. I'm not ok with being in a great hurry to move Nyquist or Tatar "because kids" and/or "because cap space" (unless, perhaps, we have a real shot at Tavares). I'm not ok with assuming Mantha, Svechnikov, Rasmussen are going to be better than Nyquist and Tatar.

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

Mantha is a future 30 goal man and Svechnikov may be as well. Same with rasmussen.

We don't know that Mantha is a future 30-goal man. He hasn't even played a full NHL season.

Svechnikov has played two games at the NHL level, and he hasn't exactly obliterated the AHL.

Have you examined Rasmussen's numbers?

https://canucksarmy.com/2017/02/02/let-s-talk-about-michael-rasmussen/

Read that piece. If you want to talk about average, run-of-the-mill, one-dimensional players who don't make others around them better and who won't be consistent 30-40 goal scorers at the NHL level, I dare say you should be a little more critical of a guy like Rasmussen.

16 hours ago, Richdg said:

Something that neither Nyquist or Tatar will ever be.

:rolleyes:

Edited by Dabura

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I agree with everything you said except for this...
Mantha WILL be a 30-goal man. We know this. :siren: 

People knew the same thing about Pulk, and knew Dekeyser was going to be a good top pair D.

Sent by my minions via telepathy

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:


People knew the same thing about Pulk, and knew Dekeyser was going to be a good top pair D.

Is either of their names Anthony Mantha by any chance?

Edited by krsmith17

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46 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:


People knew the same thing about Pulk, and knew Dekeyser was going to be a good top pair D.

Sent by my minions via telepathy
 

A lot of us also thought Pulk was nothing more than a one-dimensional player who was nothing more than a nice shot. Mantha has so much more to his game than that. 

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