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15 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

#1 - Well, Sproul outperformed Trevor Daley on a better team, in every statistical category per game (in a limited sample) this season. As a RH defenceman at just 25 years old - I sure as hell would rather have him over Daley today, especially after watching Daley's 77 games for us.

#2 - Again, Daley did absolute nothing to improve this team. We were actually 4 positions worse.

#3 - Yes, you are correct. The fact you used Trevor Daley and building block in the same sentence deserved my response. Isn't a stop gap literally the complete opposite of a building block?

#4 - Yes, we finished fifth from the bottom. I would rather have seen Daleys top 4 minutes occupied by someone like Hicketts, Sproul, XO, Jensen etc. If doing that cost us 2 or 3 spots in the standings, so be it...It's important to know what you have and what you don't. Sheltered minutes and limited exposure don't accomplish anything.  

Also, where did this notion that - unless your team is competitive - players under a certain age must remain in the minors if they ever want to succeed at the NHL level? This theory is complete garbage. Every player is different, and there are several instances of young players flourishing on bad teams, and young players struggling with good teams.

Literally nobody said that.  All people have suggested is you dont rush prospects if they're not ready. Especially if your main goal is to develop youth and not win now. 

There are players like Larkin who are ready and there are players like Turgeon who need more time. Surround them with quality leadership and good role models at both levels and they should have a greater chance to flourish. It's not a new concept. 

 

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22 minutes ago, RightWeiner said:

Literally nobody said that.  All people have suggested is you dont rush prospects if they're not ready. Especially if your main goal is to develop youth and not win now. 

There are players like Larkin who are ready and there are players like Turgeon who need more time. Surround them with quality leadership and good role models at both levels and they should have a greater chance to flourish. It's not a new concept. 

 

I have seen several posts saying things like "you don't throw prospects into the deep end and expect them to swim", but that isn't the case with all players.

Even our GM has admitted the fault in his roster. He came out last week and stated that 2 younger players at a minimum will be inserted into our lineup, meaning 2 are coming out.

Hence my frustration at the signing.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

#1 - Well, Sproul outperformed Trevor Daley on a better team, in every statistical category per game (in a limited sample) this season. As a RH defenceman at just 25 years old - I sure as hell would rather have him over Daley today, especially after watching Daley's 77 games for us.

#2 - Again, Daley did absolute nothing to improve this team. We were actually 4 positions worse.

#3 - Yes, you are correct. The fact you used Trevor Daley and building block in the same sentence deserved my response. Isn't a stop gap literally the complete opposite of a building block?

#4 - Yes, we finished fifth from the bottom. I would rather have seen Daleys top 4 minutes occupied by someone like Hicketts, Sproul, XO, Jensen etc. If doing that cost us 2 or 3 spots in the standings, so be it...It's important to know what you have and what you don't. Sheltered minutes and limited exposure don't accomplish anything.  

Also, where did this notion that - unless your team is competitive - players under a certain age must remain in the minors if they ever want to succeed at the NHL level? This theory is complete garbage. Every player is different, and there are several instances of young players flourishing on bad teams, and young players struggling with good teams.

#1 I believe you when say you watched Daley this season, but I'm not sure you watched or even remember Ryan Sproul. He spent 80% of the season in the minors and only logged 16 minutes a game in the few NHL games he did play, and for good reason. If you're going to measure Dmen by stats per game, you're gonna have a bad time

#2 Where the team finishes does not rest on Daley's shoulders. This team is better off with Daley eating big minutes, than it is with upgrading XO and Jensen's ice time.

#3 When I refer to a stop gap, I'm suggesting this is a player who probably won't win a cup during his time here. Just because he probably won't win a cup here doesn't mean he's not a block for us to build around.

#4 Let's be frank, without Daley XO and Jensen would have received more ice time. Any prospects coming up would be slotted in under them. If you're interested in developing XO and Jensen further, then we will have to agree to disagree. Jensen is not very good and is 28 in September, there's nothing left to develop. And XO is pretty awful and the team was trying to trade him at the deadline. These are the types of players we should be getting rid of, not Daley.

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3 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

I have seen several posts saying things like "you don't throw prospects into the deep end and expect them to swim", but that isn't the case with all players.

Even our GM has admitted the fault in his roster. He came out last week and stated that 2 younger players at a minimum will be inserted into our lineup, meaning 2 are coming out.

Hence my frustration at the signing.

 

 

If youre going to quote someone then quote them. Don't change the words. 

 

Admit fault? Not really. Booth and probably Ouellete will come out. Svech/Turgeon and Hicketts in. Not exactly Earth shattering "admit your fault" moves.

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1 hour ago, WingedWheel91 said:

#1 - Well, Sproul outperformed Trevor Daley on a better team, in every statistical category per game (in a limited sample) this season. As a RH defenceman at just 25 years old - I sure as hell would rather have him over Daley today, especially after watching Daley's 77 games for us.

#2 - Again, Daley did absolute nothing to improve this team. We were actually 4 positions worse.

#3 - Yes, you are correct. The fact you used Trevor Daley and building block in the same sentence deserved my response. Isn't a stop gap literally the complete opposite of a building block?

#4 - Yes, we finished fifth from the bottom. I would rather have seen Daleys top 4 minutes occupied by someone like Hicketts, Sproul, XO, Jensen etc. If doing that cost us 2 or 3 spots in the standings, so be it...It's important to know what you have and what you don't. Sheltered minutes and limited exposure don't accomplish anything.  

Also, where did this notion that - unless your team is competitive - players under a certain age must remain in the minors if they ever want to succeed at the NHL level? This theory is complete garbage. Every player is different, and there are several instances of young players flourishing on bad teams, and young players struggling with good teams.

1.  Calling the Rangers a better team to support your argument is pretty weak.  They finished a whole 1 spot above Detroit in the east and also missed the playoffs easily.  Detroit was 2-0-1 against the Rangers this season.  The Rangers were 3-11-2 in games that Ryan Sproul played.

Also, your statement that Sproul beat Daley in every statistical category per game is inaccurate.  1 goal in 16 games is not better than 9 in 77.

2.  This statement is completely unsubstantiated.  The team's performance for an entire season can't be blamed on one player (unless it's the goaltender, in some cases).

4.  We already know what we have/had in XO, Sproul, and Jensen.  XO is passably responsible, but has little offensive upside and is always the slowest skater on the ice....I'd just assume play Lashoff at this point - I think they have the same ceiling.  Sproul is the defenseman equivalent of Tomas Jurco (a LGW super-hyped prospect that turned out to be a fringe-NHL player).  The fact that he couldn't stick around here over XO speaks volumes about his time in the organization.  Jensen I actually like, but I like him only if he is a bottom pairing or #7 defenseman on the team and continues to get paid essentially the league minimum...again, though, he's already shown what he is.  I agree that it would've been nice to see more of Hicketts at the NHL level this season (since he's the only one of those you listed for which the team would need to figure out "what they have"), but for me that's as simple as waiving XO.

 

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Let me clear this up for everyone:

Next year, if we get lucky - we may have: Dahlin/Boqvist, Hronek, and Cholowski all ready to make our team. Maybe they are ready, maybe they aren't... But it's not even a possibility considering we have Ericsson, Kronwall, Dekeyser, Daley and potentially Mike Green (who was actually our best Dman this season) signed to multi-year contracts.

The same can be said the following year, and then the year after that.

Given how bad we were last season, and how many contracts we already had locked in - I didn't agree with giving away another roster spot for 3 seasons to a guy that produces very little... Especially at 34 years old. What happens? We finish in an even lower spot this year and trade away everyone we possibly can at the deadline for futures... but good thing we have that calming stop gap on D to help the transition!

 

 

 

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On the D, it's still not out of the question Kronner hangs it up, or sees significantly less games. Green is a huge question for sure. I agree XO should dealt, probably be dealt for a 5th at the draft.

Open - Daley

DD - Open

Ericsson  - Jensen

Kronner may play all season, maybe not, so he could pick up 7th man duties or 2nd pairing. 

I believe if we draft any of the top 4 D, Dahlin, Bouchard, Boqvist or Hughes, they could make the team. It still leaves a spot for Hicketts and if Kronner calls it quits, another kid.

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Of course Noah Dobson has rocketed up too. He just may be what a team like ours is looking for. But then the Q has a way of inflating stats. He is legit thougb and right handed too! 

Edited by LeftWinger

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20 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Let me clear this up for everyone:

Next year, if we get lucky - we may have: Dahlin/Boqvist, Hronek, and Cholowski all ready to make our team. Maybe they are ready, maybe they aren't... But it's not even a possibility considering we have Ericsson, Kronwall, Dekeyser, Daley and potentially Mike Green (who was actually our best Dman this season) signed to multi-year contracts.

The same can be said the following year, and then the year after that.

Given how bad we were last season, and how many contracts we already had locked in - I didn't agree with giving away another roster spot for 3 seasons to a guy that produces very little... Especially at 34 years old. What happens? We finish in an even lower spot this year and trade away everyone we possibly can at the deadline for futures... but good thing we have that calming stop gap on D to help the transition!

 

 

 

Looks like we've come full circle lol

Dahlin will probably walk on to whichever team drafts him, maybe that's us. Boqvist, Hronek, and Cholowski are not gonna make the team next year. Sure there's always a chance, but that's a very slim one.

The big question is, are you gonna quit the forum again when Holland signs an FA in 2 months?

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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5 hours ago, WingedWheel91 said:

I have seen several posts saying things like "you don't throw prospects into the deep end and expect them to swim", but that isn't the case with all players.

In the case of this team/roster it is. Hicketts is not, and probably never will be, a top 4D. Throwing him into a role that he isn't suited for (top 4) IS "throwing him into the deep end". Which is why, as has already been said, he is being blocked by other bottom pair D (XO and Jensen), not Daley.

 

3 hours ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Next year, if we get lucky - we may have: Dahlin/Boqvist, Hronek, and Cholowski all ready to make our team.

If we get Dahlin, we put him on the top pair and don't re-sign Green. Trade/waive XO to bring in Hicketts or go with 8 D. Simple.

The rest of these guys won't be ready for the NHL next year. If any of them are going to be future top pair defensemen, than they need minutes, lots of them. The best way to do that is by playing them 20 minutes a game in GR. Just because a guy is "NHL ready", doesn't make him ready for the role he will play there. Again, throwing any one of them into big defensive responsibilities right away in the NHL would be a mistake. Bringing them up to play sparingly won't really help either. You keep guys like that developing in GR until they are absolutely ready..than you bring them up onto your 2nd pair and play them with say...IDK...someone like...DALEY!

And by the time ALL of the kids are ready, all of those horrible geriatric contracts will be off the roster anyway. The idea that this team will suddenly have all Hronek, Cholowski, Saarajarvi, 2018 D pick, all up at once is not realistic. You can't change out your D corp that drastically. As guys like E, Kronner, Green, and Daley leave, you replace them with newer blood. This happens over multiple seasons, not all at once. It's how the NHL works. We aren't reinventing the wheel here.

 

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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7 hours ago, WingedWheel91 said:

#1 - Daley's signing (not his fault) caused the departure of Ryan Sproul... Who (assuming he had the same production in DET he did in NY) would be a much more valuable asset today than Daley is.

#2 - Everything in terms of health and production went better than expected for our defenceman this year, and we were the 5th worst team in the NHL? What exactly did he bring to our team?

1. There is not one GM in the NHL who would want Sproul over Daley. None.

2. Notice how DD and E had better seasons this year? Notice how Kronwall stayed the healthiest he's been in 3 years? Why do you think that is?

 

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12 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

1. There is not one GM in the NHL who would want Sproul over Daley. None.

2. Notice how DD and E had better seasons this Notice how Kronwall stayed the healthiest he's been in 3 years? Why do you think that is?

 

 

I’m going to guess because Daley played big/tough minutes allowing the others to play within their roles.

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18 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Of course Noah Dobson has rocketed up too. He just may be what a team like ours is looking for. But then the Q has a way of inflating stats. He is legit thougb and right handed too! 

This is the guy I want.  25 mins a night of solid 2 way defense.  We need a 1A and a 1B.  He's a 1B.  If we get Dahlin, great.  If not, at least fill the 1B hole.

 

_______ - Dobson

Jensen - Cholowski

Saarijarvi - Hronek

 

Plenty of room to give Karlsson top dollar. 

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On 4/17/2018 at 11:17 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

This is the guy I want.  25 mins a night of solid 2 way defense.  We need a 1A and a 1B.  He's a 1B.  If we get Dahlin, great.  If not, at least fill the 1B hole.

 

_______ - Dobson

Jensen - Cholowski

Saarijarvi - Hronek

 

Plenty of room to give Karlsson top dollar. 

What have you done with the rest of our Current D? You mention giving Karlsson top dollar, that will be next summer, we'd still have DD, Daley and Eriksson under contract at that point. 

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On 4/17/2018 at 11:17 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

This is the guy I want.  25 mins a night of solid 2 way defense.  We need a 1A and a 1B.  He's a 1B.  If we get Dahlin, great.  If not, at least fill the 1B hole.

 

_______ - Dobson

Jensen - Cholowski

Saarijarvi - Hronek

 

Plenty of room to give Karlsson top dollar. 

Looks really nice, lots of potential...dare I say something to be excited about? I just can't understand how you expect to succeed with such a young, exciting group of defencemen. Shouldn't you have atleast a couple 34 year old unproductive veterans in there to protect the confidence of those players? 

Because like, Vegas is like, about to win a cup with this top 6:

Shea Theodore (Age 22), Nate Schmidt (Age 26), Brayden Mcnabb (Age 27), Deryk Engelland (Age 36), Colin Miller (Age 25) and Jon Merril (Age 26).

Hmm... That's weird, no elite players, average age of 27, and top 7 in GAA through the regular season? Impossible.

Can't wait to have Green, Daley, Ericsson, Dekeyser and Kronwall locked in to our dumpster fire of a defence for the next few seasons. That Daley signing was awesome though! Progressive thinking at its finest! I hope Green gets 3 years this summer too, cuz like, more veterans!

 

 

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18 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Looks really nice, lots of potential...dare I say something to be excited about? I just can't understand how you expect to succeed with such a young, exciting group of defencemen. Shouldn't you have atleast a couple 34 year old unproductive veterans in there to protect the confidence of those players? 

Because like, Vegas is like, about to win a cup with this top 6:

Shea Theodore (Age 22), Nate Schmidt (Age 26), Brayden Mcnabb (Age 27), Deryk Engelland (Age 36), Colin Miller (Age 25) and Jon Merril (Age 26).

Hmm... That's weird, no elite players, average age of 27, and top 7 in GAA through the regular season? Impossible.

Can't wait to have Green, Daley, Ericsson, Dekeyser and Kronwall locked in to our dumpster fire of a defence for the next few seasons. That Daley signing was awesome though! Progressive thinking at its finest! I hope Green gets 3 years this summer too, cuz like, more veterans!

 

 

Man you still don't get it...:lol:

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44 minutes ago, RightWeiner said:

Man you still don't get it...:lol:

I think he gets it, he's just taking it to an extreme, in another attempt to get his point across. It's not going to work though because people see Daley as a good defenseman, on a good contract (which is true), and automatically think that it was a good signing for the Red Wings. It wasn't. We are a team that should be rebuilding, with the oldest defense in the league, and we add a player that makes us even older. It makes no sense. I would have been perfectly content if we signed Daley and moved another veteran in the process, but not to have 6 veterans on the team, 27+, with no room for any of the kids for the next couple years.

Anyway, what's done is done. The contract was signed. Holland admitted that we need to get younger. So to do that, he's going to need to make room for at least one of the kids this year, and maybe two more the following season. Some veterans need to go, whether it's through trade, IR, or expiring contract.

Edited by krsmith17

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47 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Looks really nice, lots of potential...dare I say something to be excited about? I just can't understand how you expect to succeed with such a young, exciting group of defencemen. Shouldn't you have atleast a couple 34 year old unproductive veterans in there to protect the confidence of those players? 

Because like, Vegas is like, about to win a cup with this top 6:

Shea Theodore (Age 22), Nate Schmidt (Age 26), Brayden Mcnabb (Age 27), Deryk Engelland (Age 36), Colin Miller (Age 25) and Jon Merril (Age 26).

Hmm... That's weird, no elite players, average age of 27, and top 7 in GAA through the regular season? Impossible.

Can't wait to have Green, Daley, Ericsson, Dekeyser and Kronwall locked in to our dumpster fire of a defence for the next few seasons. That Daley signing was awesome though! Progressive thinking at its finest! I hope Green gets 3 years this summer too, cuz like, more veterans!

 

 

I see we've devolved into fallacy and sarcasm to avoid an actual discussion, oh well. See you again this time next year!

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2 hours ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Looks really nice, lots of potential...dare I say something to be excited about? I just can't understand how you expect to succeed with such a young, exciting group of defencemen. Shouldn't you have atleast a couple 34 year old unproductive veterans in there to protect the confidence of those players? 

Because like, Vegas is like, about to win a cup with this top 6:

Shea Theodore (Age 22), Nate Schmidt (Age 26), Brayden Mcnabb (Age 27), Deryk Engelland (Age 36), Colin Miller (Age 25) and Jon Merril (Age 26).

Hmm... That's weird, no elite players, average age of 27, and top 7 in GAA through the regular season? Impossible.

Can't wait to have Green, Daley, Ericsson, Dekeyser and Kronwall locked in to our dumpster fire of a defence for the next few seasons. That Daley signing was awesome though! Progressive thinking at its finest! I hope Green gets 3 years this summer too, cuz like, more veterans!

 

 

Exactly.  There is no way to win without 4 or 5 guys that can provide veteran leadership.  Talent,  Stamina,  Durability, and Energy are all irrelevant.  It's those intangibles (veteran leadership, locker room presence, and loyalty) that are the musts.  

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think he gets it, he's just taking it to an extreme, in another attempt to get his point across. It's not going to work though because people see Daley as a good defenseman, on a good contract (which is true), and automatically think that it was a good signing for the Red Wings. It wasn't. We are a team that should be rebuilding, with the oldest defense in the league, and we add a player that makes us even older. It makes no sense. I would have been perfectly content if we signed Daley and moved another veteran in the process, but not to have 6 veterans on the team, 27+, with no room for any of the kids for the next couple years.

Anyway, what's done is done. The contract was signed. Holland admitted that we need to get younger. So to do that, he's going to need to make room for at least one of the kids this year, and maybe two more the following season. Some veterans need to go, whether it's through trade, IR, or expiring contract.

My old buddy KRSmith and I have had several disagreements in the past, but I guess we see clearly on this topic.

To add to his point, or maybe explain it another way (for the last time):

Individually: Daley, Kronwall, DD, Ericsson, Green are all decent players and could help a contending team without crippling them financially.

Collectively: This was possibly the worst group of defenceman in the league last season, and offer us no hope for improvement next year. Combined, they also offer very little roster flexibility (NTC, NMC) and cancel any hope for major turnover in the near future.

Daley was just the most recent (un-neccessary) addition to this group of older, un-productive, long term players - which is why I have primarily discussed his name... 

 

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1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Exactly.  There is no way to win without 4 or 5 guys that can provide veteran leadership.  Talent,  Stamina,  Durability, and Energy are all irrelevant.  It's those intangibles (veteran leadership, locker room presence, and loyalty) that are the musts.  

Don't forget complacency. They are set in their ways.

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21 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

My old buddy KRSmith and I have had several disagreements in the past, but I guess we see clearly on this topic.

To add to his point, or maybe explain it another way (for the last time):

Individually: Daley, Kronwall, DD, Ericsson, Green are all decent players and could help a contending team without crippling them financially.

Collectively: This was possibly the worst group of defenceman in the league last season, and offer us no hope for improvement next year. Combined, they also offer very little roster flexibility (NTC, NMC) and cancel any hope for major turnover in the near future.

Daley was just the most recent (un-neccessary) addition to this group of older, un-productive, long term players - which is why I have primarily discussed his name... 

 

Spot on.  Green would slot well into the #3 spot if we had:

 

Dahlin-Jensen

Hicketts-Green

Hronek-Cholowski

Saarijarvi

 

But adding him to 4 futureless defensemen (Ericsson, DeKeyser, Kronwall, Daley) just means we stall out our prospects.  Ken Holland doomed the Wings with these contracts.  And it looks like he will continue to do it.

 

 

5 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Don't forget complacency. They are set in their ways.

As long as you agree that it's an intangible.  I don't want to be able to see it.

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