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Official 2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread

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29 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

People really need to do more research on the draft, league wide before they spew this bulls*** that we've had so many draft busts over the years. It simply isn't true. Please name one player that is a true bust over the past 10-15 years. Maybe Svechnikov could be if he doesn't pan out, but even then, he was picked 19th overall, and the likelihood of a player picked in the latter half of the 1st round is only like 50% or something. Until we have top 5-10 picks that are true busts, I don't think you can discredit Holland for his drafting.

Looking just at the past 15 years, Franzen was a major steal at 97th overall. Abdelkader was a good pick at 42nd overall. Helm was a steal at 132nd overall. Matthias was a good pick at 47th overall. Smith was a good pick at 27th overall. Nyquist was a steal at 121st overall. Jensen was a steal at 150th overall. Tatar was a great pick at 60th overall. Mrazek was a great pick at 141st overall. Sheahan was a good pick at 21st overall. Jarnkrok was a great pick at 51st overall..Jurco was a good pick at 35th overall Ouellet was a good pick at 48th overall. Marchenko was a steal at 205th overall. Athanasiou was a steal at 110th overall. Frk was a good pick at 49th overall. Mantha was a great pick at 20th overall. Bertuzzi was a steal at 58th overall. Larkin was a steal at 15th overall. There are others as well, but these are the main ones that stand out. It's too early to say on the last 4 drafts, but Svechnikov, Cholowski, Hronek, Rasmussen, Lindstrom, Zadina, Veleno, McIsaac all look like NHL players to varying degrees.

Holland has done a fantastic job these past few years, trading players for futures. Maybe he should have started the rebuild a year or two earlier, but what's done is done. Point remains that since the rebuild has started, he's been very good. I fully expect a big move or two again in the next two weeks before the deadline.

I'm not saying I wouldn't want Yzerman back. I'd love to see it happen. Admittedly, a lot of it because of the nostalgia, but I do think he'd do great things in Detroit again. I just don't think people should be so eager to push Holland out the door. Ideally, Holland moves up into some sort of executive position and Yzerman becomes the GM. Yzerman making the final decisions, but will be able to bounce ideas off of Holland...

I agree with the sentiment overall (I think Holland has done well especially in recent drafts since the Wright hiring) , but how exactly were these guys (bolded) great/good picks? Fringe NHLers/plugs. And these are the good ones. Forget about the McCollums, Ferraros, and Emmertons. 

I look at those guys in bold and I can live with them had there been at least one or two home-run picks. Like a Kucherov or a Josi. But if Brendan Smith and Xavier Ouellet are headlining your "Holland has drafted well" parade I think you'd have a lot of sad children. He had a bad spell between 2008 and 2014. s*** happens. Just sayin'. 

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1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Holland didnt transition this team in the early part of this decade like he did the previous decade.  To be great, you need 2 or 3 superstars playing with 2 or 3 superstars of the future.  Yzerman, Feds, and Lidstrom played with Z, Dats, and Kronwall.  Z, Dats, and Kronwall never got to play with Larkin, Kakko, and Hronek.  So we are starting with a fresh cycle.  Larkin, Kakko, and Hronek will have to be patient for 3-4 more years until we've added enough talent.  I do blame Holland and his staff for 10 years of draft duds, tho.  Doesnt make him a bad guy.  But he should be held accountable.

Not really draft duds though. 

As I pointed out above, from 2005 to 2013 we drafted in the first round 3 of out 8 times.  THOSE picks were duds. But elsewhere we  did really well in the draft.  Guys like Abby, Helm, Nyquist, Tatar, Jensen, and AA all performed as good or better than their draft position would suggest during that period.  You could add Shawn Matthias and Calle Jarnkrok to that list as well.  They were good picks, we just traded them. 

We generally got good results from our picks, we just missed on the late first rounders, which hurt us.  But considering we didn't pick in the first round for 5 of those 8 years, the lack of high end picks hurt way worse than the three duds.  And you can't really blame Holland for trading 1st rounders during our Cup contention years when every other GM does the same thing. 

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1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Not really draft duds though. 

As I pointed out above, from 2005 to 2013 we drafted in the first round 3 of out 8 times.  THOSE picks were duds. But elsewhere we  did really well in the draft.  Guys like Abby, Helm, Nyquist, Tatar, Jensen, and AA all performed as good or better than their draft position would suggest during that period.  You could add Shawn Matthias and Calle Jarnkrok to that list as well.  They were good picks, we just traded them. 

We generally got good results from our picks, we just missed on the late first rounders, which hurt us.  But considering we didn't pick in the first round for 5 of those 8 years, the lack of high end picks hurt way worse than the three duds.  And you can't really blame Holland for trading 1st rounders during our Cup contention years when every other GM does the same thing. 

None of those guys moved this team's needle but none of them were duds either. I believe the word is "mediocre". Nothing to slam Holland over, but nothing to excuse either.

Anyway, I blame Nill and McDonnell for not finding this team a true difference maker in the 2nd round. And Holland, to a lesser degree, for trusting them. Regardless, all is "Wright" with this team's drafting now. :lol:

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1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

None of those guys moved this team's needle but none of them were duds either. I believe the word is "mediocre". Nothing to slam Holland over, but nothing to excuse either.

Anyway, I blame Nill and McDonnell for not finding this team a true difference maker in the 2nd round. And Holland, to a lesser degree, for trusting them. Regardless, all is "Wright" with this team's drafting now. :lol:

I wasn't suggesting they were game changing talents.  But all those guys were drafted in the 2-5 rounds.  You're not EXPECTING game changing talent in those rounds.  That doesn't mean they weren't really good picks.  They were. Particularly Tatar.  If you get a guy who scores 20 goals a year, ever year, in the 2nd round you've done a REALLY good job. 

I do agree though that we seem to be back on track with our drafting.  And it's not even that we're drafting higher either.  Trading back for Mantha/Bert, and Cholo/Hronek, were awesome moves that don't get talked about enough.  Also, people LOVE to give Nill and McDonnell credit for Holland's successes but I never hear anyone say those guys are on the hook for Kindl, Smith, and Sheahan. 

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7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I wasn't suggesting they were game changing talents.  But all those guys were drafted in the 2-5 rounds.  You're not EXPECTING game changing talent in those rounds.  That doesn't mean they weren't really good picks.  They were. Particularly Tatar.  If you get a guy who scores 20 goals a year, ever year, in the 2nd round you've done a REALLY good job. 

I do agree though that we seem to be back on track with our drafting.  And it's not even that we're drafting higher either.  Trading back for Mantha/Bert, and Cholo/Hronek, were awesome moves that don't get talked about enough.  Also, people LOVE to give Nill and McDonnell credit for Holland's successes but I never hear anyone say those guys are on the hook for Kindl, Smith, and Sheahan. 

Other teams have found them. Not blaming Holland for not finding them. But I sure wish that he had. 

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24 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I agree with the sentiment overall (I think Holland has done well especially in recent drafts since the Wright hiring) , but how exactly were these guys (bolded) great/good picks? Fringe NHLers/plugs. And these are the good ones. Forget about the McCollums, Ferraros, and Emmertons. 

I look at those guys in bold and I can live with them had there been at least one or two home-run picks. Like a Kucherov or a Josi. But if Brendan Smith and Xavier Ouellet are headlining your "Holland has drafted well" parade I think you'd have a lot of sad children. He had a bad spell between 2008 and 2014. s*** happens. Just sayin'. 

Fringe NHLers / plugs is all that is expected beyond the top 20 picks... Again, people really need to do their research on probability of draft picks turning into NHL players. Smith, Mrazek, Jurco, Ouellet and Frk were all solid picks, considering where they were drafted, and the likelihood of that draft selection becoming an NHL regular. No, none of them moved the needle, but all have played / will likely play 100+ games in the NHL. Teams have roughly a 15-20% chance in 2nd rounders hitting that mark, even less beyond the 2nd round.

I do agree that it would have been nice to had gotten a Kucherov or Josi, but only a handful of teams are lucky enough to pull those gems out of the 2nd or 3rd round every 10 years. You can't really fault Holland for not getting any true game breakers in the later rounds in the past 10-15 years. The best value pick we've gotten in that time is probably Nyquist taken in the 4th round.

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20 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Yzerman never managed a team to a Stanley Cup. 

Really? I could swear I remember them winning one in the teens somewhere besides the one in 04.

Oh well. Just goes to further show that Yzerman hasnt done a better job than Holland and the argument that he IS a better GM is based on bias, not actual results.

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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1 minute ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Really? I could swear I remember then winning one in the teens somewhere besides the one in 04.

Oh well. Just goes to further show that Yzerman hasnt done a better job than Holland and the argument that he IS a better GM is based on bias, not actual results.

Seriously though, how could you not know this? That Yzerman has never won a cup as a GM? If we're talking about Yzerman vs Holland that seems like a pretty fundamental details to get straight no? In order to legitimately participate in the convo. 

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3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Seriously though, how could you not know this? That Yzerman has never won a cup as a GM? If we're talking about Yzerman vs Holland that seems like a pretty fundamental details to get straight no? In order to legitimately participate in the convo. 

LOL. I misremembered something. That doesn't make me irrelevant.

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38 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Fringe NHLers / plugs is all that is expected beyond the top 20 picks... Again, people really need to do their research on probability of draft picks turning into NHL players. Smith, Mrazek, Jurco, Ouellet and Frk were all solid picks, considering where they were drafted, and the likelihood of that draft selection becoming an NHL regular. No, none of them moved the needle, but all have played / will likely play 100+ games in the NHL. Teams have roughly a 15-20% chance in 2nd rounders hitting that mark, even less beyond the 2nd round.

I do agree that it would have been nice to had gotten a Kucherov or Josi, but only a handful of teams are lucky enough to pull those gems out of the 2nd or 3rd round every 10 years. You can't really fault Holland for not getting any true game breakers in the later rounds in the past 10-15 years. The best value pick we've gotten in that time is probably Nyquist taken in the 4th round.

So the probability of Veleno becoming that 2nd line center you think he'll be is actually pretty damn low then by your rationale. 

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5 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

So the probability of Veleno becoming that 2nd line center you think he'll be is actually pretty damn low then by your rationale. 

Absof***inglutely. The probability of anyone from 25-35 in the draft becoming an impact player (top 6 F, top 4 D) is approximately 15%. But the probability of at least one of the players in that range becoming an impact player I would say is fairly high. I think Veleno could be (hopefully will be) that player for us.

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I'd also add that I don't believe by any stretch that Veleno becoming a 2C is an absolute lock. However, from what I've seen, I think the chances are good that he can reach that sort of ceiling. Time will tell, but keep in mind that he was considered likely to be a top 3 pick a year prior to the draft, and top 10-15 leading up to the draft. He fell a LOT. The question remains, should he have dropped that low?... I was and still am ecstatic to have him in Detroit. There's not a doubt in my mind that he'll be an NHL player, it just depends on whether he hit his ceiling (2C), or settles at his floor (bottom 6 C)... My bet is on the former...

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13 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Should've signed Hossa.

Holland should have made the Red Wings invest heavily in the research of brain transplants so that Franzen could have gotten a new one around ’10. Hell, who knows, he might even have gotten a brain with lesser tendecies towards flosting and being lazy!

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5 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

Holland should have made the Red Wings invest heavily in the research of brain transplants so that Franzen could have gotten a new one around ’10. Hell, who knows, he might even have gotten a brain with lesser tendecies towards flosting and being lazy!

Aw geez, now you're doin' me a sads right about now.

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1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Should've signed Hossa.

Yeah f*** him. 

7 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I think that's a fair criticism on a very specific point, but I don't really think it means Holland isn't best to run a rebuild.  Starting around 2010-11 we started losing D-men and seemed content to replace them with puds (Cole, Colaiacovo, Commodore) rather than legit d-men.  I always thought we should have landed Wisniewski, but Erhoff, Hamhuis, Suter come to mind as well.  But mishandling UFA d-men isn't the same thing as rebuilding, which is centered on the draft.  And in that area Holland has done very well over the years. 

Now that I've answered your questions.

Vegeta or Goku?

Superman or Batman?

McCarty or Maltby?

AA or Nyquist? 

Leftwinger or Frankgrimes? 

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49 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Yeah f*** him. 

Now that I've answered your questions.

Vegeta or Goku?

Superman or Batman?

McCarty or Maltby?

AA or Nyquist? 

Leftwinger or Frankgrimes? 

Goku

Superman

Maltby

AA

Lefty

 

Newman (prime) or Johnston (prime)?

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3 hours ago, kickazz said:

Yeah f*** him. 

Now that I've answered your questions.

Vegeta or Goku?

Superman or Batman?

McCarty or Maltby?

AA or Nyquist? 

Leftwinger or Frankgrimes? 

Those are easy:

Didn't watch Dragonball Z

Batman.  Aside from kryptonite, Superman is highly susceptible to rich guys (Lex Luther).  Bruce Wayne is rich b*tch.  And he's a violent maniac.  He's probably already got a plan to take Superman down.

Maltby, McCarty is like every washed up druggie from my high school.

AA, cuz razzle dazzle all day.

Leftwinger.  Lefty can be histrionic at times, but Frank was like if you took the most contrarian college freshman of all time and turned him into a dumb hockey fan.

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd also add that I don't believe by any stretch that Veleno becoming a 2C is an absolute lock. However, from what I've seen, I think the chances are good that he can reach that sort of ceiling. Time will tell, but keep in mind that he was considered likely to be a top 3 pick a year prior to the draft, and top 10-15 leading up to the draft. He fell a LOT. The question remains, should he have dropped that low?... I was and still am ecstatic to have him in Detroit. There's not a doubt in my mind that he'll be an NHL player, it just depends on whether he hit his ceiling (2C), or settles at his floor (bottom 6 C)... My bet is on the former...

Can you just please, please, please, use your magic Veleno voodoo to make sure he turns out to be at least as good as Ryan O'Reilly?  That's all I ask. 

Edited by kipwinger

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1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Can you just please, please, please, use your magic Veleno voodoo to make sure he turns out to be at least as good as Ryan O'Reilly?  That's all I ask. 

Done. The day he was drafted. 

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