2020 Offseason Rebuild Thread

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

Kahn: Yzerman Will Do Stuff Next Season But Might Also Do The Stuff This Season Too But might Also Not Do The Stuff Either

Juice

Quote

Yzerman will be active during the season.

The team has stockpiled young forwards, some of whom are proven NHL players (Dylan Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Bertuzzi) and others still in the early stages of development (Evgeny Svechnikov, Michael Rasmussen, Filip Zadina, Joe Veleno, Taro Hirose). Yzerman might look to package one or two with other assets for a young defenseman.

Quote

Yzerman, like Holland before him, will at least move veterans on expiring contracts for draft picks at the trade deadline, assuming the team is out of playoff contention. The list includes Howard, Mike Green, Jonathan Ericsson and Trevor Daley.

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by The 91 of Ryans

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

8 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Kahn: Yzerman Will Do Stuff Next Season But Might Also Do The Stuff This Season Too But might Also Not Do The Stuff Either

Juice

 

Moving guys at the deadline is fine, but why do we always have to wait for the deadline.  Move them as soon as possible.  Proactively trade at all times.  Not just on July 1 and Feb 22.  Thats why Holland stunk in the salary cap era.  He didnt create demand.  He had to have it come to him.

[LeftWinger 4,963]

5 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Kahn: Yzerman Will Do Stuff Next Season But Might Also Do The Stuff This Season Too But might Also Not Do The Stuff Either

Juice

 

NHL Player, good prospect, 2020 (protected to 2021) 1st round pick for Werenski right now.  Sign Werenski 8x8.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

17 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

NHL Player, good prospect, 2020 (protected to 2021) 1st round pick for Werenski right now.  Sign Werenski 8x8.

Anything

[LeftWinger 4,963]

2 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Anything

As much as I love AA, I would offer AA, Berggren, 2020 1st (again, protected to 2021 in case its a lottery)

If they wanted a D instead I would throw them Cholowski in place of AA.  But he is not as established as AA in the NHL.  I just figure they have a nice D setup already, they's probably want to attempt to replace the loss of Panarin.  But in all honesty, I would also see if they accept Zadina, Berggren, 1st.  Thats a lot of potential talent there, but Werenski would no doubt, hands down be our #1 guy.  He would be a monstrous step in us returning to our Stanley Cup glory, even more so than Trouba or Krug. I am not saying he's on the market, I am just making off-season conversation.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

6 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

As much as I love AA, I would offer AA, Berggren, 2020 1st (again, protected to 2021 in case its a lottery)

If they wanted a D instead I would throw them Cholowski in place of AA.  But he is not as established as AA in the NHL.  I just figure they have a nice D setup already, they's probably want to attempt to replace the loss of Panarin.  But in all honesty, I would also see if they accept Zadina, Berggren, 1st.  Thats a lot of potential talent there, but Werenski would no doubt, hands down be our #1 guy.  He would be a monstrous step in us returning to our Stanley Cup glory, even more so than Trouba or Krug. I am not saying he's on the market, I am just making off-season conversation.

Would you do Mantha, Berggren, and the pick?  AA seems to be the better player.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Would you do Mantha, Berggren, and the pick?  AA seems to be the better player.

He seems like it, except that he's not...

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

He seems like it, except that he's not...

More goals, more points, faster and stronger

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

More goals, more points

With that logic, Kevin Fiala is better than Taylor Hall...

4 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

faster

For sure.

4 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

and stronger

Not even close.

Mantha also has a higher hockey IQ, better shot, better passer, better in the corners, better in front of the net, etc...

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

With that logic, Kevin Fiala is better than Taylor Hall...

For sure.

Not even close.

Mantha also has a higher hockey IQ, better shot, better passer, better in the corners, better in front of the net, etc...

Mantha is on the block.

[LeftWinger 4,963]

On 8/2/2019 at 6:57 PM, Jonas Mahonas said:

Would you do Mantha, Berggren, and the pick?  AA seems to be the better player.

yep

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

yep

Yah, i dont think we can give up AA.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 7/31/2019 at 8:32 PM, Buppy said:

I wouldn't call trading three players "blowing up the team" (maybe in the context of the current team, but not in terms of the one we're trying to build), nor am I "throwing away" anything. Calculated trades, with the aim of turning some guys who would be older into guys who would be younger. AA put up 30g and 56p, Mantha had a dominant run at the end of the year and into the WC, Bert finished strong. I'm not suggesting we trade them all for a 4th rounder. I'd expect a very good return. High picks, high-end prospects. 

Obviously there's some risk with even high picks, just like there's some risk of those three players leaving anyway. If you just want to say the one risk is acceptable and the other isn't, I have no problem with that. But don't act like I'm saying trade them just to get rid of them. You even said you'd be willing to trade them for the right package.

Like I said, I'd chalk this up to difference in philosophy. Personally I'm fine with 28/29/30 year olds remaining on the team so long as they are working out and providing value on a decent contract. Selling them off feels like winding the rebuild clock back again. I'm not ready to do that yet, and would like to see a good push with the current core if we can.

I'm ok with trading these players as I believe they are all 2nd tier players. However, I'd be looking for lateral moves (like adding an already capable Dman) not necessarily picks or prospects that we will have to wait on while Larkin continues to age.

On 7/31/2019 at 8:32 PM, Buppy said:

I'm looking at it in terms of a cup window - 5 or 6 years or so - so it's more than just where those guys will be in year 5. It's where would they be in years 5 through 10, relative to what a few kids age 21-26 would be. So it's not some "boo 29-year-olds". It's weighing the relative merits of two options. I'd love to sign good 21yo UFAs, or even good 25yo UFAs, but there aren't any. I'd love to sign a 28yo then immediately flip him for a 21yo, but no one does that. 28+ is the only option. I know they won't likely be vital core players in my cup window, and maybe won't even be around for the whole thing. I would hope by the time their usefulness ends, our younger players will have transitioned from secondary players to leaders to offset that loss. 

And beyond all that is the implications needing 4 more years to build anything would have in regards to what we've already built. The pieces we have already, all our top prospects - several of whom already have NHL experience - given 2 more years of development, AND augmented with some UFAs. But you don't think that team could complete for anything? If our prospects are that slow to develop, or that bad, what is another two years supposed to accomplish? You say you're not building through free agency, so that can't be it. Unless you're expecting Ethan Phillips to be the next Point, or some similar miracle from a future draft, I don't get it. You think you're optimistic, but in regards to what we've already built I don't think you're close enough to optimism to see it through a telescope. 

I'm not going any more "FA heavy" that your suggestion, I'm just doing it earlier, so I'm not sure where that came from.

We would still have leaders who've been with the team. Larkin primarily. Bert has only been on the Wings for 1/2 a season longer than Rasmussen. We'd have other young players with several years of experience. Having Yzerman as a GM I'd think we'd be pretty open to the idea of getting some leadership from young players. Shanahan, Larionov, Fetisov, Murphy, Hull, Rafalski... I feel confident that we could get some valuable leadership from outside the current team as well. Especially considering neither Mantha nor AA are known for any leadership qualities (kind of the opposite in fact), and you've admitted you're not even sure you'd want them at that point, I wouldn't be worried about it and I don't think you are either. This whole angle is pure sophistry.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with all this.

As I've said I'm perfectly alright with being competitive in the next two years. I just don't think it will be an issue Yzerman will force within the next 2 years based on the actions he's taken so far. Maybe the kids explode and force us into competition despite Yzerman's perceived "plan", and that forces the plan to change? I'd be ok with that.

I'd rather build internally on what we already have (AA/Bertuzzi/Mantha) than sell them off and go seeking FA's to replace them. And based on Yzerman's track record building the bolts, I think he would agree.

 

 

[Euro_Twins 4,477]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Like I said, I'd chalk this up to difference in philosophy. Personally I'm fine with 28/29/30 year olds remaining on the team so long as they are working out and providing value on a decent contract. Selling them off feels like winding the rebuild clock back again. I'm not ready to do that yet, and would like to see a good push with the current core if we can.

I'm ok with trading these players as I believe they are all 2nd tier players. However, I'd be looking for lateral moves (like adding an already capable Dman) not necessarily picks or prospects that we will have to wait on while Larkin continues to age.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with all this.

As I've said I'm perfectly alright with being competitive in the next two years. I just don't think it will be an issue Yzerman will force within the next 2 years based on the actions he's taken so far. Maybe the kids explode and force us into competition despite Yzerman's perceived "plan", and that forces the plan to change? I'd be ok with that.

I'd rather build internally on what we already have (AA/Bertuzzi/Mantha) than sell them off and go seeking FA's to replace them. And based on Yzerman's track record building the bolts, I think he would agree.

 

 

Agreed. No point in rushing the rebuild when you're halfway there. That's how you end up like Edmonton. just stay the course, you'll see the sun again soon..

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, Euro_Twins said:

Agreed. No point in rushing the rebuild when you're halfway there. That's how you end up like Edmonton. just stay the course, you'll see the sun again soon..

[Euro_Twins 4,477]

21 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Great now the hooker I'm with thinks I'm weird because I'm crying

[F.Michael 4,590]

39 minutes ago, Euro_Twins said:

Great now the hooker I'm with thinks I'm weird because I'm crying

As long as she's a fan of the Wings she'll understand...Might even give you a discount.

[Buppy 1,720]

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Like I said, I'd chalk this up to difference in philosophy.

We're going in circles now; no point in repeating myself. If you want an answer just read one of my previous posts.

7 hours ago, Euro_Twins said:

Agreed. No point in rushing the rebuild when you're halfway there. That's how you end up like Edmonton. just stay the course, you'll see the sun again soon..

I'm not sure what you consider rushing, or what you think is being proposed, but I would just add that waiting too long can be as harmful as anything. Mantha, AA, and Bert could leave in three years. Larkin in four. The slower we progress toward relevancy, the greater the risk of that happening. The more opportunities to add talent we allow to pass by, the greater the risk of missing out entirely.

What exactly is it we're supposed to be waiting for, anyway?

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, Buppy said:

We're going in circles now; no point in repeating myself. If you want an answer just read one of my previous posts.

Answer to what? I didn't pose a question.

[Buppy 1,720]

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Answer to what? I didn't pose a question.

Neither do telephones. Funny how words work.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, Buppy said:

Neither do telephones. Funny how words work.

I'm not the one abandoning the discussion.

[Buppy 1,720]

17 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm not the one abandoning the discussion.

There is no discussion. You're repeating yourself. If you really want me to do the same, here you go:

But they aren't core players in your plan. You're skipping right over that stage of their careers to the "maybe they'd be worth keeping around as vet leaders" stage. They'll be 29 when Larkin's next contract starts, assuming they don't just bail in 3 years when they could be UFAs. They;ll be at the stage where they're likely starting to decline, possibly saddling us with bad contracts right in the middle of your planned cup window. Considering both AA and Mantha have at times had their work-ethic questioned, and neither of them have played a NHL playoff game at this point (nor, according to your plan, will they in the next two years at least), I don't think "veteran leader" is a role either would particularly well-suited for. 

If we're going to do anything with those guys, it needs to be done soon. Either build something with them, or trade them while we can still get a return that could contribute during Larkin's window.

[Dabura 12,207]

8 hours ago, Buppy said:

What exactly is it we're supposed to be waiting for, anyway?

There's a lot of bloat on this team and our current core -- Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Athanasiou -- is basically a placeholder as we wait to see what we have in the ELC kids we're drafting in these rebuild years. So, we're running out the clock on a number of veteran contracts and we're waiting to see if these draft hauls pay off in the form of a roster full of really good young players, a roster that deserves and demands to be supplemented by big moves.

The hope is that we're only a year or two away from having that roster. If, say, Hronek performs like a top-pairing defenseman in 2019-20 and Seider performs really well through a couple dozen NHL games like Hronek did this past season, that's a quantum leap forward for this rebuild -- if not the end of it altogether.

I'm not sure which side this puts me on in this back-and-forth you're having with CRL (I've kinda skimmed over it), but, yeah, that's how I see it. We're waiting for things to unfold naturally and we're hoping the result is a good one.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Dabura

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

Did I miss something? 

Didn't St Louis just win with a 29 year old Pietrangelo  and a 28 year old O'Reilly leading the charge. Not to mention

Bozak - 33

Bouwmeester - 35

Perron - 31

Steen - 35

Now they had good players in their prime and some young guys too. 

Basically, Larkin will be 28 in five years, Matha 29. Zadina, Sieder, Hronek, Rasmussen etc will be in their primes. Pack a few young sub-24 year olds around that. 

This team has time. No need to rush anything IMO. 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by The 91 of Ryans

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

6 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Did I miss something? 

Didn't St Louis just win with a 29 year old Pietrangelo  and a 28 year old O'Reilly leading the charge. Not to mention

Bozak - 33

Bouwmeester - 35

Perron - 31

Steen - 35

Now they had good players in their prime and some young guys too. 

Basically, Larkin will be 28 in five years, Matha 29. Zadina, Sieder, Hronek, Rasmussen etc will be in their primes. Pack a few young sub-24 year olds around that. 

This team has time. No need to rush anything IMO. 

 

I tend to agree with this.  And we need superstars.  #1 or #2 pick is a must for us the next 2 years.  Going to be tough to win without a couple dominant players.