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Dabura

2020 Draft Thread

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25 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Ah didn't realize he was a goalie.

His stats are impressive AF

If Yzerman drafts him he will have fixed our net and back end in like his first two seasons. Something Holland seemingly could not do in like an entire decade lol. f*** me.

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21 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ah didn't realize he was a goalie.

His stats are impressive AF

If Yzerman drafts him he will have fixed our net and back end in like his first two seasons. Something Holland seemingly could not do in like an entire decade lol. f*** me.

Some people are saying he's the best goalie prospect since Vasilevsky. A few people are saying he could be the best one since Price.

Like I said a few posts back, getting a Price/Vasilevsky probably redefines our paradigm; all of a sudden the defense isn't as big a problem as it's been and we don't necessarily need tons of firepower up front and we don't necessarily need a galaxy brain head coach. All we'd need, in theory, is what we seem to be building towards anyway: a good-not-great group of skaters that has to do everything by committee.

Watching that Prospect Tournament game yesterday and seeing Romeo keep his team in that game reminded me that there's no substitue for a clutch af goalie. And we're just a few months removed from Binnington going legendarily HAM on fools. So, atm, I guess I'm open to doing the unthinkable and taking a goalie with a prime-ass pick in a deep-ass draft. In theory. Maybe. Possibly. Given the right circumstances.

(See, this is why we need another 2020 1st.)

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22 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ah didn't realize he was a goalie.

His stats are impressive AF

If Yzerman drafts him he will have fixed our net and back end in like his first two seasons. Something Holland seemingly could not do in like an entire decade lol. f*** me.

Holland could've gone D instead of Zadina.

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13 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Some people are saying he's the best goalie prospect since Vasilevsky. A few people are saying he could be the best one since Price.

Like I said a few posts back, getting a Price/Vasilevsky probably redefines our paradigm; all of a sudden the defense isn't as big a problem as it's been and we don't necessarily need tons of firepower up front and we don't necessarily need a galaxy brain head coach. All we'd need, in theory, is what we seem to be building towards anyway: a good-not-great group of skaters that has to do everything by committee.

Watching that Prospect Tournament game yesterday and seeing Romeo keep his team in that game reminded me that there's no substitue for a clutch af goalie. And we're just a few months removed from Binnington going legendarily HAM on fools. So, atm, I guess I'm open to doing the unthinkable and taking a goalie with a prime-ass pick in a deep-ass draft. In theory. Maybe. Possibly. Given the right circumstances.

(See, this is why we need another 2020 1st.)

I totally believe in building from the net out. The goalie is the only player on the ice the entire game. You need him to be great. Dmen are playing 15 - 25 minutes a game. You need them to be good. Forwards are on the ice for 8 - 20 minutes to game. You can get buy with them being just ok. Granted centers are like an extra Dman these days so you do need to be strong down the middle as well.

All we have in net is basically a 35 year old Jimmy Howard and a buncha so-so prospects. We now suddenly have Hronek and Seider coming up the D ladder, so if there's anytime to make a not-sexy pick in the first and add a possible star future goalie, it might be now.

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Athanasiou - Veleno - Zadina

Cholowski - Hronek
McIsaac - Seider

Askarov
Larsson

Suddenly that looks like a complete core of young players.

Of course we could add another awesome forward piece or something and go shopping for goalies or something. I think a lot will depend on how Larsson plays. I hate to say I'm hoping Howard goes down with an injury at some point and Larsson gets a callup over Pickard. If we can at least establish that YES or NO this kid is the future of our net, it should help us with this pick. If he's not I'd love to add Askarov.

Mrazek got like 10 games in at 21, and we all pretty much looked around and said this our guy. I'd like to see something like that this year.

6 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Holland could've gone D instead of Zadina.

Probably Shoulda. Q Hughes looks much better than Zadina to me.

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20 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I totally believe in building from the net out. The goalie is the only player on the ice the entire game. You need him to be great. Dmen are playing 15 - 25 minutes a game. You need them to be good. Forwards are on the ice for 8 - 20 minutes to game. You can get buy with them being just ok. Granted centers are like an extra Dman these days so you do need to be strong down the middle as well.

All we have in net is basically a 35 year old Jimmy Howard and a buncha so-so prospects. We now suddenly have Hronek and Seider coming up the D ladder, so if there's anytime to make a not-sexy pick in the first and add a possible star future goalie, it might be now.

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Athanasiou - Veleno - Zadina

Cholowski - Hronek
McIsaac - Seider

Askarov
Larsson

Suddenly that looks like a complete core of young players.

Of course we could add another awesome forward piece or something and go shopping for goalies or something. I think a lot will depend on how Larsson plays. I hate to say I'm hoping Howard goes down with an injury at some point and Larsson gets a callup over Pickard. If we can at least establish that YES or NO this kid is the future of our net, it should help us with this pick. If he's not I'd love to add Askarov.

Mrazek got like 10 games in at 21, and we all pretty much looked around and said this our guy. I'd like to see something like that this year.

Probably Shoulda. Q Hughes looks much better than Zadina to me.

I tend to think you don't really need an elite goalie, you just need good goaltending come playoff time.  I know I've said elsewhere, but the three best goalies of this era (Lundqvist, Luongo, and Price) have zero Cups between them and at least two of them completely disappeared in the finals when they had their chance.  Why use a bunch of cap space on a guy like that when lesser goalies tend to have just as much, or more, playoffs success?

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4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I totally believe in building from the net out. The goalie is the only player on the ice the entire game. You need him to be great. Dmen are playing 15 - 25 minutes a game. You need them to be good. Forwards are on the ice for 8 - 20 minutes to game. You can get buy with them being just ok. Granted centers are like an extra Dman these days so you do need to be strong down the middle as well.

All we have in net is basically a 35 year old Jimmy Howard and a buncha so-so prospects. We now suddenly have Hronek and Seider coming up the D ladder, so if there's anytime to make a not-sexy pick in the first and add a possible star future goalie, it might be now.

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Athanasiou - Veleno - Zadina

Cholowski - Hronek
McIsaac - Seider

Askarov
Larsson

Suddenly that looks like a complete core of young players.

Of course we could add another awesome forward piece or something and go shopping for goalies or something. I think a lot will depend on how Larsson plays. I hate to say I'm hoping Howard goes down with an injury at some point and Larsson gets a callup over Pickard. If we can at least establish that YES or NO this kid is the future of our net, it should help us with this pick. If he's not I'd love to add Askarov.

Mrazek got like 10 games in at 21, and we all pretty much looked around and said this our guy. I'd like to see something like that this year.

Probably Shoulda. Q Hughes looks much better than Zadina to me.

Probably won't be able to learn much from Larsson this season, tbh. We're so bad and it typically takes non-elite goalie prospects so long to come into their own that I figure you'd pretty much have to throw out whatever he might do in the NHL this season, good or bad.

It took Vasilevsky, what, three or four years to break into the NHL? I suppose that's a pretty good argument against drafting a goalie in the top 10. Maybe he radically changes your fortunes, but you're probably gonna have to wait a pretty long while for that payoff. Granted, if you're picking, like, 9th, that's probably true of any of the other viable options. But maybe this draft is deep enough that it's not the case.

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3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I tend to think you don't really need an elite goalie, you just need good goaltending come playoff time.  I know I've said elsewhere, but the three best goalies of this era (Lundqvist, Luongo, and Price) have zero Cups between them and at least two of them completely disappeared in the finals when they had their chance.  Why use a bunch of cap space on a guy like that when lesser goalies tend to have just as much, or more, playoffs success?

Having a superstar goalie isn't a prerequisite. I think Jacob Markstrom, for example, has been low-key solid for the Canucks and might be capable of pulling a Binnington with the right team in front of him.

I guess for me, as a Wings fan, the appeal of a hypothetical superstar goalie is that he'd take some pressure off our forwards and defensemen, hypothetically. It's possible to find some no-name guy who gets hot at the right time and backstops you to a Cup, but having a young top-tier guy in net would be nice. If we don't end up pulling a really great new core of skaters out of this rebuild, a cornerstone goalie could potentially salvage things.

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3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Having a superstar goalie isn't a prerequisite. I think Jacob Markstrom, for example, has been low-key solid for the Canucks and might be capable of pulling a Binnington with the right team in front of him.

I guess for me, as a Wings fan, the appeal of a hypothetical superstar goalie is that he'd take some pressure off our forwards and defensemen, hypothetically. It's possible to find some no-name guy who gets hot at the right time and backstops you to a Cup, but having a young top-tier guy in net would be nice. If we don't end up pulling a really great new core of skaters out of this rebuild, a cornerstone goalie could potentially salvage things.

Or we could be the new Montreal Canadiens.  Not good enough to get good picks, but not bad enough to win anything.  That scares me WAY worse than having a good team in place and then having to find quality goaltending later. 

It's also hedging a little bit.  You're using a top pick on a goalie in case you don't get a solid young core piece when you could have just used the top pick on a solid young core piece. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I guess for me, as a Wings fan, the appeal of a hypothetical superstar goalie is that he'd take some pressure off our forwards and defensemen, hypothetically. It's possible to find some no-name guy who gets hot at the right time and backstops you to a Cup, but having a young top-tier guy in net would be nice. If we don't end up pulling a really great new core of skaters out of this rebuild, a cornerstone goalie could potentially salvage things.

I'd rather assume for now that one of Larsson, Eliasson or Petruzzelli emerge as a number one goaltender, of trade for one later on. I know a lot of people believe that you should build from the goaltender out, but I believe the opposite to be honest. Besides, goaltending is such a crap shoot. It's a lot harder to predict where a goalie will be in 3-5 years at 18, than it is to predict where any skater position will be in 3-5 years at 18...

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56 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I totally believe in building from the net out. The goalie is the only player on the ice the entire game. You need him to be great. Dmen are playing 15 - 25 minutes a game. You need them to be good. Forwards are on the ice for 8 - 20 minutes to game. You can get buy with them being just ok. Granted centers are like an extra Dman these days so you do need to be strong down the middle as well.

All we have in net is basically a 35 year old Jimmy Howard and a buncha so-so prospects. We now suddenly have Hronek and Seider coming up the D ladder, so if there's anytime to make a not-sexy pick in the first and add a possible star future goalie, it might be now.

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Athanasiou - Veleno - Zadina

Cholowski - Hronek
McIsaac - Seider

Askarov
Larsson

Suddenly that looks like a complete core of young players.

Of course we could add another awesome forward piece or something and go shopping for goalies or something. I think a lot will depend on how Larsson plays. I hate to say I'm hoping Howard goes down with an injury at some point and Larsson gets a callup over Pickard. If we can at least establish that YES or NO this kid is the future of our net, it should help us with this pick. If he's not I'd love to add Askarov.

Mrazek got like 10 games in at 21, and we all pretty much looked around and said this our guy. I'd like to see something like that this year.

Probably Shoulda. Q Hughes looks much better than Zadina to me.

I question how he plans to fill the nets of NHL goalies when he couldn't fill the nets of prospect goalies. 

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Just now, kipwinger said:

Or we could be the new Montreal Canadiens.  Not good enough to get good picks, but not bad enough to win anything.  That scares me WAY worse than having a good team in place and then having to find quality goaltending later.

The Habs are stupid self-defeating dinguses tho. Bergevin is a pathological fidgeter who feels compelled beyond all reason to restructure the team every other year. Give 2013 Holland a Price-tier goalie and we probably squeeze another Cup out of the Euro Twins core.

10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

It's also hedging a little bit.  You're using a top pick on a goalie in case you don't get a solid young core piece when you could have just used the top pick on a solid young core piece.

Well, that wouldn't be the reason why I'd take the goalie (if I were to take him). Just a possible benefit.

18 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

The last thing I think this team should do is take a goaltender with a top 10 pick in next year's draft...

11 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd rather assume for now that one of Larsson, Eliasson or Petruzzelli emerge as a number one goaltender, of trade for one later on. I know a lot of people believe that you should build from the goaltender out, but I believe the opposite to be honest. Besides, goaltending is such a crap shoot. It's a lot harder to predict where a goalie will be in 3-5 years at 18, than it is to predict where any skater position will be in 3-5 years at 18...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not strongly in favor of taking a goalie in the top 10. I'm basically just talking through my thoughts on it and getting feedback from you folks and trying to figure out where I actually stand on it. Taking a goalie that early isn't something I've ever considered. The fact that this goalie is placing so high on many people's rankings kind of tickles my brain and gives me something to think about that isn't the usual "Our defense is bad. It is on fire. How do we put out the fire? I like Werenski. Who would we trade for Werenski? Dang, Werenski re-signed."

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56 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I tend to think you don't really need an elite goalie, you just need good goaltending come playoff time.  I know I've said elsewhere, but the three best goalies of this era (Lundqvist, Luongo, and Price) have zero Cups between them and at least two of them completely disappeared in the finals when they had their chance.  Why use a bunch of cap space on a guy like that when lesser goalies tend to have just as much, or more, playoffs success?

My problem with this notion is it's essentially gambling. Maybe your Binnington shows up in the playoffs, maybe he doesn't. I don't think the Blues win the cup if he doesn't.

Plenty of very good franchise goalies have won cups with their teams. Holtby, Quick, Rask, Fleury. In fact I'd say guys like Binnington are not the norm, they're the outlier.

At the end of the day you need a very good team in front of your goalie regardless. And that's the risk with taking a guy like Askarov in the first round. We solidify the goalie position but perhaps miss out on a paradigm shifting center or something. Will the team in front of Askarov be good enough to win without that other player? I think that's the question. And maybe its too early in the rebuild for us to consider an Askarov. Though I'd certainly rather draft a good goalie than shop for one.

32 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Or we could be the new Montreal Canadiens.  Not good enough to get good picks, but not bad enough to win anything.  That scares me WAY worse than having a good team in place and then having to find quality goaltending later. 

It's also hedging a little bit.  You're using a top pick on a goalie in case you don't get a solid young core piece when you could have just used the top pick on a solid young core piece. 

 

True, that's a scary thought, but IMHO the Habs have been a mess for years and it's sort of their own fault they've squandered Price. It's probably too little too late for Lundqvist with the Rags, but to their credit they were all in trying to win with him for years and I thought they did a respectable effort trying to get that cup. Just didn't happen. I don't think I'd blame Lundqvist for that. What's his face has done an extremely good job rebuilding that team now too.

22 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I question how he plans to fill the nets of NHL goalies when he couldn't fill the nets of prospect goalies. 

Sames

12 minutes ago, Dabura said:

The Habs are stupid self-defeating dinguses tho. Bergevin is a pathological fidgeter who feels compelled beyond all reason to restructure the team every other year. Give 2013 Holland a Price-tier goalie and we probably squeeze another Cup out of the Euro Twins core.

Well, that wouldn't be the reason why I'd take the goalie (if I were to take him). Just a possible benefit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not strongly in favor of taking a goalie in the top 10. I'm basically just talking through my thoughts on it and getting feedback from you folks and trying to figure out where I actually stand on it. Taking a goalie that early isn't something I've ever considered. The fact that this goalie is placing so high on many people's rankings kind of tickles my brain and gives me something to think about that isn't the usual "Our defense is bad. It is on fire. How do we put out the fire? I like Werenski. Who would we trade for Werenski? Dang, Werenski re-signed."

Come again tough guy?

HZ3wgje.jpg

I agree that taking a goalie top 10 seems beyond bold. But if this kid is the next dominator or something its at least worth discussing.

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how many 20yo goalies play in the NHL? how many first round pick goalies became superstars? The biggest problem to me drafting a goalie in the first round is the time it takes to get him to the NHL. In the last 10 drafts 7 goalies were taken in the first round. Mark Visentin #27 in 2010 played one game in the NHL, retired. Jack Campbell drafted at #11 in 2010 played 38 NHL games so far, 31 of these games played last season.Malcolm Subban #24 in 2012 played 48 NHL games. Vasilevskij taken #19 in 2012 got the starting job 5 years after being drafted, Ilya Samsonov #22 in 2015 no NHL games probable starter in AHL this year. Jake Oettinger #26 in 2017 remains to be seen where he will end up this year, AHL or ECHL and of course Spencer Knight #13 this year. So one became a starter so far and two have at least some NHL experience.

Conclusion: it takes far to long to get any reward out of your first round pick. Especially when you pick top ten, your chances of getting an (close to) immediate return is a lot higher with forwards and a little later (on average) with d-men. That makes it clear to me, never pick a goalie in the first round unless you want to start a rebuild in two to three years  and start from the net, because if we draft Askarov in 2020 he might be ready to play in 2024 (if we are lucky). Till then we might have a good goalie already...

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8 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

You dont like Zadina?

Lol, nope...

Then and more now over a year later... looking at some of the defensive prospects we could have had instead... Hughes, Bouchard or my personal favorite from that draft Dobson.  They'd be ready to seriously challenge for a roster spot, Zadina looks destined for another year of "over-ripening"

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7 minutes ago, mackel said:

Lol, nope...

Then and more now over a year later... looking at some of the defensive prospects we could have had instead... Hughes, Bouchard or my personal favorite from that draft Dobson.  They'd be ready to seriously challenge for a roster spot, Zadina looks destined for another year of "over-ripening"

I didn't know you don't like Zadina. What don't you like about him? Could you expand?

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Just now, mackel said:

That's well documented, as you know.

BS. You have never once discussed Zadina. Where is this sudden Zadina hate coming from?

Real talk tho: If Zadina doesn't take a big step forward this season (early returns aren't very promising) and Quinn Hughes has a really good rookie season in the NHL, I might start leaning towards your side of the fence.

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