2024 TDL Thread

[stephen-gregory-yzerman 94]

11 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Well I suspect you and I might fundamentally disagree on a couple of things. First, the value of defensive play overall, as well as the value of Michael Rasmussen. For the most part I don't really give a crap how many points a guy scores (obviously there are limits to this). Why? Because it's not really an accurate way to determine everything a player is doing to contribute to winning games. Shayne Gostisbehere scores more than Jake Walman but one of those guys is doing a lot more than the other to help the team. So in general I look at what roles a guy plays on the team, and whether he's succeeding in those roles, before I look at points. Which brings me to Ras. Prior to about a month ago we had basically one line that played consistently good hockey (Larkin's line). Aside from that we were getting a lot of offense from our defense, a lot of powerplay goals, and a lot of great individual efforts (Sprong). But we didn't really have an even strength line (outside of Larkin's) that could win shifts against good players. The Ras-Copp-Fischer line is exactly that. Their shot share is absolutely ridiculous. They're really, really, valuable. And Ras has been driving the bus on that. Look at all the goals Copp's been scoring lately and you'll find that Ras made the play on almost all of them. He's a beast defensively, on the forecheck, PK, faceoffs AND ON TOP OF THAT he scores .5 ppg. Ras is a modern day Kris Draper in terms of his value to the team. There were a ton of players better than Draper, but very few of them were more valuable in terms of winning games.

Besides, you guys are dramatically overstating the return for Hanifin. Look at what Chychrun got last year and Hanifin will get a little less because he's older and doesn't have term on his contract. I really think you're looking at a 1st, 2nd/Good Prospect, cap dump. The hard part with Hanifin is finding the cap space to extend him.

 

I agree on pretty much everything you said here except imo your overstating Rasmussens importance and downplaying Hanifins. No matter how you slice it a top pair dman is still more valuable to a teams success then any bottom six forward.

Draper was important to those cup teams no argument there. But you know who was more important? Murphy, Chelios, Kronwall. Maybe you disagree.

[kipwinger 8,559]

2 minutes ago, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

I agree on pretty much everything you said here except imo your overstating Rasmussens importance and downplaying Hanifins. No matter how you slice it a top pair dman is still more valuable to a teams success then any bottom six forward.

Draper was important to those cup teams no argument there. But you know who was more important? Murphy, Chelios, Kronwall. Maybe you disagree.

I don't disagree. I guess I'm saying you need both. Trading one away for the other doesn't do you any good. So you trade Ras for Hanifin, and now you've got a better second pair and no matchup line. At best it's a wash. If you look around the league you'll notice top heavy lineups don't win any more playoff games than teams with great depth do.

[stephen-gregory-yzerman 94]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't disagree. I guess I'm saying you need both. Trading one away for the other doesn't do you any good. So you trade Ras for Hanifin, and now you've got a better second pair and no matchup line. At best it's a wash. If you look around the league you'll notice top heavy lineups don't win any more playoff games than teams with great depth do.

Ras is 1/3 of that shutdown line. I have more confidence in Kostin or Veleno filling the Rasmussen role as 3w with Copp and Fish then I do Maatta or whoever doing what Hanifin could potentially do in that 2d role.

That said Id rather keep Ras and send Calgary another piece. Just that if thats what it took to get Hanifin in Detroit I think you do that and dont think twice.

[kipwinger 8,559]

1 minute ago, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

Ras is 1/3 of that shutdown line. I have more confidence in Kostin or Veleno filling the Rasmussen role as 3w with Copp and Fish then I do Maatta or whoever doing what Hanifin could potentially do in that 2d role.

That said Id rather keep Ras and send Calgary another piece. Just that if thats what it took to get Hanifin in Detroit I think you do that and dont think twice.

We're probably not going to agree on this, which is fine. IMO if it takes Rasmussen to get Hanifin you should just promote Edvinsson instead and look to sign Hanifin in the offseason.

[Troy McClure 346]

9 minutes ago, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

Ras is 1/3 of that shutdown line. I have more confidence in Kostin or Veleno filling the Rasmussen role as 3w with Copp and Fish then I do Maatta or whoever doing what Hanifin could potentially do in that 2d role.

That said Id rather keep Ras and send Calgary another piece. Just that if thats what it took to get Hanifin in Detroit I think you do that and dont think twice.

I agree with you - but I guess I'd also say Ras is a bit better than a bottom 6er. A 6'6" 220lb wing/center that kills penalties, and tracks to put up 40 pts a season, and is about to hit 300 games played at age 25, is pretty valuable. His best years are still ahead of him. Hanafin is a more valuable piece in theory, but Ras is not a piece I at all want to give up right now. They can have Berggren+ instead.

[Troy McClure 346]

To add - the thing I am most pleased with Ras and Veleno right now, is they are finally forcing Larkin off the PK. Larkin is not the defensive dynamo that Zberg and Dats were, and those two didn't even play the PK as much as Larkin has. Larkin is a scorer and you want his time dedicated to even strength and PP. Compher was huge for the PK this year, but Ras and Veleno's emergence are finally putting Larkin where he needs to be. And it has been fantastic for our top6. 

[kipwinger 8,559]

I'll give you an example of how Ras contributes in ways that don't end up on the scoresheet. Every time we go to overtime Ras starts the overtime period with Larkin and Seider. If Larkin wins the faceoff, Ras gets off the ice and a scorer comes on the ice. But if Larkin loses the faceoff Ras stays on and defends. Defending in overtime is basically the hardest thing you can do in the NHL. It's WAY harder than the PK. And the guys Lalonde trusts most to do that job are Larkin, Seider, and Ras.

[Troy McClure 346]

Continued - look at Ras's even strength deployment. He plays more than Perron, Fabbri, and Sprong on average. A couple more seconds a game and he's playing more than Copp. He's played the 3rd most minutes on the team as a forward in total. This kid is BARELY a bottom 6er.

[LeftWinger 4,975]

Ok, hypothetically, if Berggren is being dealt for a D-man, would you rather it be Chychrun or Hanifin? Chychrun is younger, and has another year left of his contract.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Ok, hypothetically, if Berggren is being dealt for a D-man, would you rather it be Chychrun or Hanifin? Chychrun is younger, and has another year left of his contract.

Hanifin 100%

But it'll take waaaay more than Johhny Burgs

[kipwinger 8,559]

3 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Ok, hypothetically, if Berggren is being dealt for a D-man, would you rather it be Chychrun or Hanifin? Chychrun is younger, and has another year left of his contract.

Same. I think Chychrun is a good player, and I'm not turning my nose up at him. But I think Hanifin is the better defender and I think we need to shore up our defense. Chychrun is a better generator of offense, so if you're one of those "the best defense is a good offense types" than I can see the argument for Chychrun.

Edit: BTW Hanifin had a SICK goal against Boston last night in game Calgary dominated from post to post.

Edited February 7 by kipwinger

[stephen-gregory-yzerman 94]

Maatta, Johansson, 2024 2nd, 2025 1st for Hanifin.

Who says no?

[kipwinger 8,559]

2 minutes ago, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

Maatta, Johansson, 2024 2nd, 2025 1st for Hanifin.

Who says no?

That deal definitely would get it done. Only issue would be if another team had a better offer. But if on deadline day that was the best offer Calgary had I think they take it in a heartbeat.

[stephen-gregory-yzerman 94]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

That deal definitely would get it done. Only issue would be if another team had a better offer. But if on deadline day that was the best offer Calgary had I think they take it in a heartbeat.

I think that trade brings us from bubble playoff team - likely 1st round exit to bonafide playoff team - maybe win a round or 2 without mortgaging to much of the future.

[kipwinger 8,559]

1 minute ago, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

I think that trade brings us from bubble playoff team - likely 1st round exit to bonafide playoff team - maybe win a round or 2 without mortgaging to much of the future.

Totally agree. I really like Johansson as a player, but Hanifin is a better fit right now. I don't care at all about the 1st at this point in our rebuild so that doesn't give me heartburn either. And while Maatta is playing great for us at the moment, he's no Hanifin and he's not really effective on the 2nd pair anyway. This would really shore up the defense and leave plenty of additional assets (Berggren particularly) if we wanted to go shopping for a forward.

[town123 185]

I'm assuming the above deal would be only if Hanifin signs an extension?

[kipwinger 8,559]

46 minutes ago, town123 said:

I'm assuming the above deal would be only if Hanifin signs an extension?

Yeah. I don't think it makes sense to acquire a pure rental.

[Troy McClure 346]

53 minutes ago, town123 said:

I'm assuming the above deal would be only if Hanifin signs an extension?

Wont happen. Theyll be a bidding war for him regardless of contract, and this is Hanafins year to get paid.

Which is why I, a businessman, identify as a chychbro.

 

[TLGTrico 631]

If we bring in any defenseman with the intention of keeping them beyond this season, there better be a defenseman with term going back the other way

[Troy McClure 346]

Perhaps we are going about this all wrong... if we are only going to trade for players with term/extensions, we should probably be looking at our needs beyond the immediate future.

Going forward the core of the D is:

Walman - Seider

Edvinsson

Then in terms of prospects, almost all our D is LH, besides ASP... and ASP arriving is probably 2-3 years out.

If we want a big piece on D we should be adding a RHD. Not only for the future, but a RHer will also not restrict Edvinsson to the 3rd pair for the next 2-3 seasons.

This is why I, a businessmen, am a devout SeanWalkerBro

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

40 minutes ago, Troy McClure said:

Perhaps we are going about this all wrong... if we are only going to trade for players with term/extensions, we should probably be looking at our needs beyond the immediate future.

Going forward the core of the D is:

Walman - Seider

Edvinsson

Then in terms of prospects, almost all our D is LH, besides ASP... and ASP arriving is probably 2-3 years out.

If we want a big piece on D we should be adding a RHD. Not only for the future, but a RHer will also not restrict Edvinsson to the 3rd pair for the next 2-3 seasons.

This is why I, a businessmen, am a devout SeanWalkerBro

U sure he shoots R?

[Troy McClure 346]

11 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

U sure he shoots R?

He doesn't? Maybe im thinking of Nick Seeler

[Troy McClure 346]

Per Seravalli, Flyers asking for a 1st for Walker. 

Walkerbros, what would you give?

[mackel 690]

10 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Ok, hypothetically, if Berggren is being dealt for a D-man, would you rather it be Chychrun or Hanifin? Chychrun is younger, and has another year left of his contract.

Ideally, Hanafin with an extension.  I don't want to give Ottawa assets and I don't think Chychrun is worth the assets, he's hurt a lot and is not as much of an upgrade.

7 hours ago, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

Maatta, Johansson, 2024 2nd, 2025 1st for Hanifin.

Who says no?

Can we offer this on Stevies behalf?

[kipwinger 8,559]

Winged Wheel Podcast interviewed Carter Mazur on their most recent pod and asked him who the most underrated player on the Griffins was. His answer: Albert Johansson. Maybe we should just roll with what we've got, I dunno.