Dispelling some myths: the Pittsburgh Penguins

[CrossoverThrash 0]

First time poster, but as my name probably gives away. I am a Pens fan...

Let me drop a disclaimer first and say that I have read about 50% of this post, some of it being B.S because of team pride, some of it being very informative because I won't claim to know the ins and outs of the Wings. So if I make a pont that has been beaten to death, I apologize.

1.) Hal Gill is hilarious, his nickname that he got in Toronto I think was (Skillz Gillz) which is a bit of sarcasm cause we all know he has none.

2.) The most beat to death thing on these forums has been "Our lines/depth is better than yours" I am going to be biased but I truely believe the Pens have the better top 3 lines. If the Wings split up Dats & Zett from the 1st line, that gives the Pens an advantage on the 1st line.

If the Wings keep Dats & Zett together, then the 1st line is a wash for both teams but then the Pens have a decent advantage on the 2nd line.

GO Pens.

Finally a pens fan facing the Gill Reality, pit has a stronger 3 lines but i think zd and nobody talks about this guy H! has the edge only because i think Homer is the X factor otherwise its a wash. I think overall the experiece of the wings will hopefully give them more of an edge to make up for talent

[HeyNow71871929 0]

Our third line isnt meant to score goals. its meant to prevent them. Stall will be better than draper someday, but just because he can score dosent mean he is in the same water of Draper defensivily

What if I told you that he is a lot closer to Draper defensively than you think? It's baffling how defensively responsible he is at the age of 19. I think you guys will find out in approximately 3 days.

It's also puzzling to see how many of you guys just can't accept the fact that there are other players out there that are better than some of the Red Wings players.

Edited May 22, 2008 by HeyNow71871929

[pits200 0]

I think that Dats (97 points) and Zetterberg (92 points) match up nicely against Crosby (72 points with injuries) and Hossa (66 points). I don't care that Hossa was a Thrasher most of the year....that is a huge gap.

Hey, if you want to use stats, you need to use fair ones. Crosby had an high ankle sprain and missed a 1/3 of the season getting over this. Before his injury he was the leading scorer in the league.

Crosby (1.36 pts/game) + Hossa (.92 pts/game) = 2.28 pts/game

Dats (1.18 pts/game) + Zett (1.23 pts/game) = 2.41 pts/game

Now the discrepancy doesn't look as big anymore, does it?

Im not usually a stat boy but since I think this duo comparison is so close, I dont want to just give my biased opinion so stats work great.

Edited May 22, 2008 by pits200

[betterREDthandead 58]

I don't understand this at all. Unlike Lilja, Hal Gill plays and plays a lot. He is a key member of our PK and 5 on 5 defense. He's been an absolute horse since we acquired hm at the trade deadline. Granted, he has struggled mightily thru his years with the Maple Leafs, but barely none of it has been transferred over to the Penguins when we acquired him. You have not watched enough Penguins hockey to make such a biased opinion. Hal Gill, though he is slow, is an absolute stalwart for us and besides Gonchar, our most key defenseman in this series. He was terrific for us down the stretch and Gill also has a lot to do with how great our D has been in the playoffs.

Lilja hasn't played much in the playoffs because Babcock made a switch early on and stuck with the same lineup when we got on a roll.

However, regular season, Lilja saw almost 20 minutes of ice time a game, and was 3rd on the team in PK minutes. Key member of the PK....I'd say so. Absolutely.

Gill is a big PKer. Lilja's a big PKer. Gill is big and slow. Lilja's big and slow. About the only real difference is that Gill has a little bit of an offensive touch....Lilja's presence on the scoresheet is rare.

But Lilja has a cooler nickname. Advantage Andreas.

[norrisnick 1]

I don't understand this at all. Unlike Lilja, Hal Gill plays and plays a lot. He is a key member of our PK and 5 on 5 defense. He's been an absolute horse since we acquired hm at the trade deadline. Granted, he has struggled mightily thru his years with the Maple Leafs, but barely none of it has been transferred over to the Penguins when we acquired him. You have not watched enough Penguins hockey to make such a biased opinion. Hal Gill, though he is slow, is an absolute stalwart for us and besides Gonchar, our most key defenseman in this series. He was terrific for us down the stretch and Gill also has a lot to do with how great our D has been in the playoffs.

Just because Pittsburgh uses Gill more doesn't make him a better player than Andreas Lilja. And that sort of illustrates the wealth of defense the Wings enjoy. If a guy like Gill/Lilly is being used as one of your pillars, you're in a world of trouble. That happened to the Wings last season when Kronwall and Schneider were hurt. Lilly and Cheli became our #2 and #3 defensemen.

[HeyNow71871929 0]

Just because Pittsburgh uses Gill more doesn't make him a better player than Andreas Lilja. And that sort of illustrates the wealth of defense the Wings enjoy. If a guy like Gill/Lilly is being used as one of your pillars, you're in a world of trouble. That happened to the Wings last season when Kronwall and Schneider were hurt. Lilly and Cheli became our #2 and #3 defensemen.

Well it looks like our "pillars" have done a pretty decent job so far. So I will take it.

[Shaman 713]

I just posted this on the pens board but id like to put it here too.

Ok ill break it down using the Playoffs as my sample size

Zetterberg 21 Pts 11 G 10 A > Crosby 21 Pts 4 G 17 A (Zetterberg is a better Goal scorer, while Crosby can make plays Goals always mean more in the end, remember kiddos cool plays dont win games, pucks in the net do).

Pavel Datsyuk 9 G 10 A tied with Hossa and Malkin, but, when comparing lines I will give this one as a tie.

And who do you have like our #96? he can throw the best goalies off their game with just his ***, now thats talent. He makes our first line power play one of the most effective in the league.

Now shall i get into Faceoff % or shall i just give it to Zetterberg and Detroits first line?

Malkin 9 G 10 A = Franzen 12 G 3 A While Malkin has the edge in points, I still go back to my point that Goals mean more on the scoreboard.

I give the Edge to Detroit I mean come on, when the person that is supposed to be the new 99 is tied with little Hudler in goals you cant say you have a better goal scorer in the playoffs.

Now heres where it gets real fun, our back line, We have Lids, Rafi and Kronwall who are all able to put up points, who do you have? Wings fans keep talking about our Defenses defensive ability but we forget to mention that they are as good at scoring as some teams second line forwards.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

...this is my only question. How many SCF games do the Penguins players have under their belts? I am not sure on the entire roster, but does ANYONE have even 1 game played in a SCF's?

...turn the record over and see the Wings lineup, and the experience they have in SCF's...

...give the Pens credit for have hunger to get there, but to get there and then actually win it is a whole new ballgame...

...I hope there is no sweep either way. This (on paper) sets up to be one of the most talented SCF (on both sides of the puck) since I cannot remember when...

...I just don't want to hear all the Crosby knobgobbling on the VS./NBC networks OR the CBC. Man I wish Ken and Mickey could do our local broadcasts...

...BRING BACK CHANNEL 50! BRING BACK CHANNEL 50! We want Ray Lane!!!!

...maybe I'll turn on 97.1 and listen to Ken and Paul while watching the TV...

...for any of you Pens fans, good luck! If you just happen to NOT win the Cup this year, keep supporting your team, if your GM doesn't make a huge amount of changes, your core will learn from their mistakes and be back again...

...if you do happen to win the Cup, then thank the refs and Gary Bettman!

...I hear Sid's a diver, I certainly hope he doesn't do any Greg Luganis acts, I'll puke... (unless he wants to smack his head on the ice like Greg did the board...)

[eva unit zero 271]

Ok, I'll get into this comparison game. Except rather than 1st line vs 1st line, 2nd vs 2nd, etc, I'm going to play it a different way. I'm going to compare the likely matchups for the start of the series based on recently used lines. I'm going to lump the defensemen most likely to play with each line the most into the comparison.

Detroit's 1st line vs Pittsburgh's 1st line

Pavel Datsyuk/Henrik Zetterberg/Tomas Holmstrom/Nicklas Lidstrom/Brian Rafalski vs Pascal Dupuis/Sidney Crosby/Marian Hossa/Sergei Gonchar/Brooks Orpik

Detroit's top forward line has scored 28 even-strength points in 16 games to Pittsburgh's 26 in 14. Detroit's top line also has two Selke nominees, to Pittsburgh's zero. Detroit also has the two best defensemen at either end of the ice in this comparison. Don't expect to see this matchup as much in Games 3 and 4. Advantage: Detroit

Detroit's 2nd line vs Pittsburgh's 3rd line

Jiri Hudler/Valtteri Filppula/Dan Cleary/Brett Lebda/Chris Chelios vs Tyler Kennedy/Jordan Staal/Jarkko Ruutu/Hal Gill/Rob Scuderi

Detroit's second line features plenty of skill. Unfortunately, two thirds of this line has been underachieving in the offensive department for this run. Defensively sound, they should be able to handle the offensive contributions put forth by Pittsburgh's bunch, but unless one of Filppula or Cleary shows up, it will be fairly easy for the Staal line to contain Hudler if he's forced to do it alone. I expect the Lebda/Chelios pairing to be used here because Babcock will want to match Kronner with Malkin. I see Lebda playing because of his speed and the fact his pairing is likely to be used in an offensive situation. Advantage: Pittsburgh

Detroit's 3rd line vs Pittsburgh's 2nd line

Dallas Drake/Kris Draper/Mikael Samuelsson/Niklas Kronwall/Brad Stuart vs Petr Sykora/Evgeni Malkin/Ryan Malone/Ryan Whitney/Kris Letang

This is probably a key matchup in the series. Draper and Drake are the two best faceoff guys in the matchup that will actually end up in the circle; Malkin might be the worst. Detroit will try to exploit the difference between Draper and Malkin at the dot to control the puck as much as possible to neutralize Pittsburgh's potent second line. It should be an effective strategy; combine that with the fact that all three of DDS are defensively sound players who skate well and have decent puck skills, and I expect this to be a key matchup in the series. Kronwall's excellent performance at both ends and physically thus far is what will ultimately lead to Malkin being generally contained, and Stuart's solid defense is a bonus. Advantage: Detroit

Detroit's 4th line vs Pittsburgh's 4th line

Kirk Maltby/Darren Helm/Darren McCarty vs Georges Laraque/Max Talbot/Adam Hall

I don't expect to actually see this matchup; Detroit's fourth line is typically used to spell the first three more than it is used to match up against a specific line; Pittsburgh's is only the 4th line because they are the remaining three forwards and typically will be used as fill-ins on the first three lines; common is Talbot filling in on line 1 for Dupuis or line 3 for Ruutu. Both units have a generally useless veteran who is only around in case of what MIGHT happen, as well as a speedy winger who is primarily a defensive player who plays gritty and physical. Both units also have a young two-way center capable of offensive production if given the opportunity, but solid at the dot and in his own zone. Advantage: Even...like it even matters.

Goaltending

Chris Osgood vs Marc-Andre Fleury

Osgood and Fleury have similar numbers. Both have stolen games in this playoff run. Both have been doubted, and have silenced many critics. The Wings have a better team and win most of the matchups; importantly they win the matchups concerning Pittsburgh's top two lines. Osgood will have far less work to do than Fleury will; Fleury isn't so great, nor Osgood so terrible, that the Pens should end up on top in any of the games at the Joe. Advantage: Detroit

Now, for comparisons when the Pens have last change:

When the series shifts to Pittsburgh, I expect Lidstrom's unit to be split from DZH and put with Hudler/Flip/Cleary. Kronwall/Stuart will move to DZH, and Lebda/Chelios will play with Draper's line. Other than that, no significant changes are prognosticated. Pittsburgh will likely

Det 1 vs Pit 3

This is a more favorable matchup for the Pens than either of the first two lines; Detroit's top two defensive forwards are rendered near useless in terms of their impact on Crosby and Malkin. However, as the Detroit unit still features much more potent offense than Staal's line would have seen yet in the postseason, it's not a total loss. Advantage: Detroit

Det 2 vs Pit 1

Pittsburgh has to settle for Crosby/Hossa vs Lidstrom, hoping to capitalize on the weakest Wings forward line defensively. However, playing with Lidstrom and Rafalski against a line that is not as good as Staal's defensively will play into Detroit's 2nd unit's hands enough for some impact. Not enough though, as Pittsburgh has the top two forwards in this matchup. Advantage: Pittsburgh

Det 3 vs Pit 2

Malkin gets away from Kronwall/Stuart, instead facing Lebda/Chelios. This seems to be an upgrade for the pens, except Malkin still will be denied the puck by Draper's faceoff skills so he won't get many chances to take advantage of the defensive change. Expect Chelios to hound Malkin and try to get him irritated and off his game. Advantage: Detroit

Det 4 vs Pit 4

Here for completeness. Advantage: Detroit

Detroit still comes out ahead; Although with last change I expect Pittsburgh to shuffle around a bit, and if possible, we'll see Malkin/Crosby/Hossa or something similar thrown out as much as possible if they can find time when none of D, Z, or Lids is on the ice.

Pittsburgh's a good team, but the Wings match up very well against them so I expect this series to be more one-sided than many are expecting. Pittsburgh wins one game just on raw offensive talent, but they don't have enough depth going both ways to beat Detroit. I can see this series ending in four games, but I will give the Pens the benefit of the doubt and call it...

Wings in 5.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Eva, you get a

Good, no great post.

[KronwallCRUNCH 5]

Pittsburgh's a good team, but the Wings match up very well against them so I expect this series to be more one-sided than many are expecting. Pittsburgh wins one game just on raw offensive talent, but they don't have enough depth going both ways to beat Detroit. I can see this series ending in four games, but I will give the Pens the benefit of the doubt and call it...

Wings in 5.

Didn't read the rest, but I agree with that.

[Casey 145]

If/when Franzen returns, if he plays as he has, then things get interesting. Can anyone throw that many skill players out there?

[Guest Crymson]

...this is my only question. How many SCF games do the Penguins players have under their belts? I am not sure on the entire roster, but does ANYONE have even 1 game played in a SCF's?

...turn the record over and see the Wings lineup, and the experience they have in SCF's...

...give the Pens credit for have hunger to get there, but to get there and then actually win it is a whole new ballgame...

...I hope there is no sweep either way. This (on paper) sets up to be one of the most talented SCF (on both sides of the puck) since I cannot remember when...

...I just don't want to hear all the Crosby knobgobbling on the VS./NBC networks OR the CBC. Man I wish Ken and Mickey could do our local broadcasts...

...BRING BACK CHANNEL 50! BRING BACK CHANNEL 50! We want Ray Lane!!!!

...maybe I'll turn on 97.1 and listen to Ken and Paul while watching the TV...

...for any of you Pens fans, good luck! If you just happen to NOT win the Cup this year, keep supporting your team, if your GM doesn't make a huge amount of changes, your core will learn from their mistakes and be back again...

...if you do happen to win the Cup, then thank the refs and Gary Bettman!

...I hear Sid's a diver, I certainly hope he doesn't do any Greg Luganis acts, I'll puke... (unless he wants to smack his head on the ice like Greg did the board...)

Hey, look who seamlessly jumped on the bandwagon when the Wings made it to the finals.

[Rice 42]

Well it looks like our "pillars" have done a pretty decent job so far. So I will take it.

Against pop-gun offenses. It's similar to when Foote shut Gaborik down in the first round and many people were predicting the same thing against Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

Then Foote became a pylon.

[hillbillywingsfan 794]

eva..stat god. can you pull some numbers together compairing the strongest teams that both the pens and the wings have had to play in their conference? i want to see numbers to see who has played the stronger teams.

[Doggy 130]

eva..stat god. can you pull some numbers together compairing the strongest teams that both the pens and the wings have had to play in their conference? i want to see numbers to see who has played the stronger teams.

What do you need stats for? PHI, NYR and OTT totally suck. NAS, COL and DAL are good. COL was decimated by injuries though so they were crap against us.

[HeyNow71871929 0]

What do you need stats for? PHI, NYR and OTT totally suck. NAS, COL and DAL are good. COL was decimated by injuries though so they were crap against us.

What makes Nashville that much better than Ottawa? What made Colorado that much better then the Rangers?

Bottomline is, both Detroit and Pittsburgh will be facing what they have yet to face tis whole season, let alone the playoffs. And the one thing that will make this series an epic one that will be looked back at for ages is the number of star players that will be on the ice. I mean look at this:

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Malkin

Crosby

Hossa

Lidstrom

Gonchar

Rafalski

It's gonna be absolutely unbelievable.

[Pensfan 0]

Detroit's 3rd line vs Pittsburgh's 2nd line

Dallas Drake/Kris Draper/Mikael Samuelsson/Niklas Kronwall/Brad Stuart vs Petr Sykora/Evgeni Malkin/Ryan Malone/Ryan Whitney/Kris Letang[/b]

This is probably a key matchup in the series. Draper and Drake are the two best faceoff guys in the matchup that will actually end up in the circle; Malkin might be the worst. Detroit will try to exploit the difference between Draper and Malkin at the dot to control the puck as much as possible to neutralize Pittsburgh's potent second line. It should be an effective strategy; combine that with the fact that all three of DDS are defensively sound players who skate well and have decent puck skills, and I expect this to be a key matchup in the series. Kronwall's excellent performance at both ends and physically thus far is what will ultimately lead to Malkin being generally contained, and Stuart's solid defense is a bonus. Advantage: Detroit

This is a joke, right?

Edited May 22, 2008 by Pensfan

[Doggy 130]

What makes Nashville that much better than Ottawa? What made Colorado that much better then the Rangers?

Bottomline is, both Detroit and Pittsburgh will be facing what they have yet to face tis whole season, let alone the playoffs. And the one thing that will make this series an epic one that will be looked back at for ages is the number of star players that will be on the ice. I mean look at this:

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Malkin

Crosby

Hossa

Lidstrom

Gonchar

Rafalski

It's gonna be absolutely unbelievable.

Ottawa was by far the worst team to qualify for the playoffs. They were an absolute disgrace against Pittsburgh in the quarters. If you're not able to identify that you must be pretty new to the game. New York played horrible against Pittsburgh but were better than Colorado as I said, mainly because CO had so many injuries. I used to respect the Rangers a lot until I saw them play in the semis. Pretty bad stuff.

Not to discredit Pittsburgh's run because I love the Pens and they've played well, but Ottawa did pretty much the same thing last year rolling through better teams to a 12-3 record before being owned by a clearly better Western conference team. I don't see this year much differently to be totally frank. But maybe I'm wrong.

I do hope the Pens win a Cup in the next few years though. Mario is one of my all-time favs and I'm also a big fan of Sid.

[Doggy 130]

This is a joke, right?

That's what I was wondering.

Eva, you don't even have the correct lines for Detroit. You seem to know Pittsburgh better.

[Yzerman191 37]

This is a joke, right?

What's so unbelievable about it? I don't think eva is implying that their offensive force is going to overpower the Malkin line. Rather, I think he's indicating that the DDS line is going to be able to shut them down. And if it's really that unfathomable to you, you haven't seen enough of this line yet.

[Pensfan 0]

What's so unbelievable about it? I don't think eva is implying that their offensive force is going to overpower the Malkin line. Rather, I think he's indicating that the DDS line is going to be able to shut them down. And if it's really that unfathomable to you, you haven't seen enough of this line yet.

The fact of the matter is, this has been the Penguins best line all regular season and all playoff run. I doubt Detroits "third line" is going to slow down / stop one of the best, if not the best, lines this entire season.

Malkin - 47 goals , 59 assists , 106 points

Sykora - 28 goals , 35 assists , 63 points

Malone - 27 goals , 24 assists , 51 points

If you honestly think your third line is going to have an "advantage", you're seeing something that I don't.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Pensfan

[Cern 0]

What makes Nashville that much better than Ottawa? What made Colorado that much better then the Rangers?

I'd always feel more nervous about facing a team that fought tooth and nail to get itself into a playoff spot (Nashville) than a team that was good half a season ago only to enter a complete freefall to a low playoff seed (Ottawa). Plus, Central teams have always been a nagging issue for the Wings.

As for Colorado being better than the Rangers? Er, simply put, they weren't. Colorado was our Senators as far as playoff round matchups were concerned.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

That's what I was wondering.

Eva, you don't even have the correct lines for Detroit. You seem to know Pittsburgh better.

Yes he does, unless Franzen comes back those will be the lines.

[Cern 0]

I doubt Detroits "third line" is going to slow down / stop one of the best, if not the best, lines this entire season.

Uh, they have guys called 'defensemen' whose specific JOBS it is to shut down offense. Detroit's third line isn't going to slow down or stop Pittsburgh's top line, Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart/Kronwall/Chelios is. Having good defensive offensemen is just the cherry topping it all off.