Bertuzzi SUCKS

[dobbles 252]

I dont really understand everyones problem with Bert. I was excited when we got him at the trade deadline 2 season ago, im a big beleiver in second chances, and i thought he would be a great addition to our team. He didnt play to hot the first time he was with us, and i was sad to see him leave, but i understand his reasoning, he was looking for a long term deal and the wings wouldnt give it to him. When we signed him again in the offseason, i as extremely happy because he wasnt just coming off Injury this time and he was stated as saying that he feels healthy for the first time in a LONG time, and i was excited to see how the man could play. Now with that said, he hasnt been an extremely heavy offenseive force, but he has refined his game to play in the wings organization. When they brought him back, they wanted him to play a more defensive game like all the wings players play, and if you ask me, he is doing just that. Hes skating harder than ive seen in years, hes defenisvely reliable in his own zone, and when he has the puck in the offensive zone he guards the puck well. I do think that all the injuries that we have suffered as a team should change his type of play, because now we rely on secondary scoring like him to help us out on the offensive sheet, and i think that hes starting to do just that. I think with all these injuries you will see bertuzzi pick up a bigger offensive role. Is he going to lead the team in scoring? Hell no, but if you watch all the games from day 1, i think hes been one of the most consistent players on the team, just is hitting a bad stream of luck. I think the guy has about 300 hit posts this season. Now that hes starting to find the net more, i think people should back off a bit. For 1 million dollars i think he has been a GREAT addition to the team.

I think alot of people are biased towards him for the whole Moore incident, and those people cant be swayed and will say the guy sucks no matter what he does. But i think for a million dollars, the guy has produced. He changed his game completely, and is still putting up points on the score sheet, and with all the injuries, he will probably have to step into a bigger role.

The guy is 4th in goals on the team this season, 5th in points and SECOND in shots on this team, ahead of DATSYUK. I think the guy is playing pretty damn hard if you ask me. People need to just back off. People in Detroit are always looking for someone to blame when we lose. Cant we just chalk the bad season up to losing alot of offense in the offseason on top of the MILLIONS of injuries this year? I think this team is playing really well together for what the circumstances are, and when the players come back from injury i think people will see that the team can mesh well together. But back to the point at hand, Bertuzzi in my book was a great offseason addition and hes doing just fine in my book!

i appreciate this post. i enjoy well thought out posts. you mix fact with opinion to give info for both types of people. but since several bertuzzi worshippers think your posts seems to end the discussion in your favor, i felt the need to respond rationally to standup for my fellow bertuzzi haters!

let me start first with the stats... i have tried to talk about them before but people choose to ignore my stats as they don't paint the same pictures. its like a few pages back when someone tried to include defensemen in the takeaways stat to make bert look better. first thing i noticed was shots. in your post you specifically namedrop datsyuk in regards to that stat in order to make bert look really good. but you know what i notice? that even after 2 goals last night, bertuzzi is still 11th among forwards in shooting percentage and 13th overall. the best part? before his 'awesome' game last night, his shooting percentage was only 4.9%!!! that ranked him a few spots lower behind sharpshooters like darren helm! so while getting shots is somewhat nice, his awful shooting percentage really makes it inconsequential.

in regards to points and goals, the guy should be near the top. not because he makes 1.5 million in salary (which is pointless and a total straw man argument for most of this thread) but because he has played a ton of minutes. he is 4th for forwards in total ice time. additionally, a lot of his ice time is on the PP, and a lot of it has been with datsyuk. actually, if you remove cleary's SH ice time (which has a pretty low chance of scoring points) then bertuzzi ties cleary for 3rd in ice time behind only datsyuk and zetterberg. so, i really don't think the fact that he is 5th on the team in points is all that impressive considering all the quality ice time he has. also, before last night, he only had 4 goals and was on pace for like 11. and i just don't think that is very good for someone with as many quality minutes as bertuzzi. some may be happy expecting 15 goals and 40 points from the guy, but for someone with PP time and top line minutes, its just poor output.

one last stat is +/-. while he currently is out of last, he has consistently been near or at the bottom of the team in that stat. additionally, i believe he was last in calgary for that stat last season. so while some may think he skates hard and plays good defense, you don't get to last in that category 2 years in a row for 2 different teams without some poor play.

and that leads me to the more impression based analysis. and when i watch bertuzzi, i see a guy that is lazy defensively. i see a guy that doesn't skate hard. i see a guy that ruins offensive chances with stupid back passes, holding the puck too long, and taking those poor angled shots that drive his shooting percentage down. i see a big guy that doesn't use his body very well (despite his recorded hits #. that stat is super objective and unreliable anyway.)

i would also like to note that i hold all of these opinions independently of the moore incident. i was actually a bertuzzi backer in that situation as i believe that he shouldnt be punished for the bad luck of moore falling awkwardly. so its not residual anger from 6 years ago, it really isn't.

and i realize that his salary is moderate. and i also realize that with injuries we have few options. however, that doesn't mean we can't criticize poor play when we see it.

[deltawing 12]

Great post. I absolutely agree. I think a real key is that he really is out there working hard not only in the games but apparently he's really putting in a lot of extra time in practice as well to get stronger. You can tell he's hungry to shoot and contribute and he hasn't had a lot of luck yet, but when you work that hard and you have as much skill as he does, it's bound to get going. I'm really pulling for him this year and I'm quite hopeful that he'll become a key part of this team down the stretch. Everyone deserves a shot at redemption, and there's no better place for a hockey player to find it than in Detroit if you ask me.

You stole my thought with that last line there, he definitely seems like he's trying to redeem himself with a second chance in Detroit.

I was excited when we got him in the offseason because he is a big body with some pretty decent hands and good skill, it's just a matter if he can apply himself and get past his demons that haunt him from years prior, IMO.

Last night was what I knew Bertuzzi could accomplish, and it was awesome watching him do it.

[Carman 387]

i appreciate this post. i enjoy well thought out posts. you mix fact with opinion to give info for both types of people. but since several bertuzzi worshippers think your posts seems to end the discussion in your favor, i felt the need to respond rationally to standup for my fellow bertuzzi haters!

Finally someone that can post with actually integrity, nice to see.

let me start first with the stats... i have tried to talk about them before but people choose to ignore my stats as they don't paint the same pictures. its like a few pages back when someone tried to include defensemen in the takeaways stat to make bert look better. first thing i noticed was shots. in your post you specifically namedrop datsyuk in regards to that stat in order to make bert look really good. but you know what i notice? that even after 2 goals last night, bertuzzi is still 11th among forwards in shooting percentage and 13th overall. the best part? before his 'awesome' game last night, his shooting percentage was only 4.9%!!! that ranked him a few spots lower behind sharpshooters like darren helm! so while getting shots is somewhat nice, his awful shooting percentage really makes it inconsequential.

Shooting percentage is a skewed stat, Bertuzzi has never been a sharpshooter even in his prime. His main playstyle was a poor-mans Thornton mixed with a physical aspect. He mostly a pass-first guy(Or just jam the puck to the net), so when he had to step up into Franzen's spot which is pretty much exclusively a slot role it was not a move that he could seamlessly adapt to. His role in the Datsyuk-Holmstrom line was to get pucks to the net, that's pretty much it. That's why I used the shot's taken statistic. Now his shooting percentage is awful, but is that really his fault for being put in that role? With as many injuries to top forwards that we've had this season it's not a unfathomably thing to have a player put in a role he cannot quite produce at, if his shooting % was higher he'd have a hell of a lot of goals which of course be nice, but in the end is that really fair to expect. He's not going to be carry a shooting % like Hossa, or else he'd be getting paid a lot more.

in regards to points and goals, the guy should be near the top. not because he makes 1.5 million in salary (which is pointless and a total straw man argument for most of this thread) but because he has played a ton of minutes. he is 4th for forwards in total ice time. additionally, a lot of his ice time is on the PP, and a lot of it has been with datsyuk. actually, if you remove cleary's SH ice time (which has a pretty low chance of scoring points) then bertuzzi ties cleary for 3rd in ice time behind only datsyuk and zetterberg. so, i really don't think the fact that he is 5th on the team in points is all that impressive considering all the quality ice time he has. also, before last night, he only had 4 goals and was on pace for like 11. and i just don't think that is very good for someone with as many quality minutes as bertuzzi. some may be happy expecting 15 goals and 40 points from the guy, but for someone with PP time and top line minutes, its just poor output.

Don't see how the salary is a "straw man arguement". He's filling a role on the team that is completely vacant as a 1.5 million plug. He's had to fill in a top 6 role that he is not exactly fit for. He's cannot be expected to produce at the rate you expect, just because he's getting the icetime should not require him to put up the points of a top 3 player. He's simply the best option with the injuries because he's had experience, and does not play the PK. On a team riddled with injuries there are going to be players stepping into roles based solely on injuries. Look at Meech getting PP time as well because of the Kronwall injury. So I guess what I'm trying to get at is holding the guy accountable for not producing is not a fair assessment based on the fact of what he was brought here for. Not everyone can step up and play beyond there abilities especially aging veterans with a crippling back injury.

So one last stat is +/-. while he currently is out of last, he has consistently been near or at the bottom of the team in that stat. additionally, i believe he was last in calgary for that stat last season. so while some may think he skates hard and plays good defense, you don't get to last in that category 2 years in a row for 2 different teams without some poor play.

and that leads me to the more impression based analysis. and when i watch bertuzzi, i see a guy that is lazy defensively. i see a guy that doesn't skate hard. i see a guy that ruins offensive chances with stupid back passes, holding the puck too long, and taking those poor angled shots that drive his shooting percentage down. i see a big guy that doesn't use his body very well (despite his recorded hits #. that stat is super objective and unreliable anyway.)

The +/- statistic is not a very good barometer for defensive play, especially for a Winger. He's not a defensive dynamo, and yet again I think your expectations of having a player set up to first line minutes due to injuries while not making mistakes is not fair. They will happen, especially when the rest of the team in playing mediocre hockey. Calgary was a mess last year, and he was coming off serious back troubles, but he also played very poorly so I'm not going to make excuses for him, he didn't play to the level expected of him, and that's why he took a pay cut and is no longer playing for them.

What I think your seeing is a injury riddled, aging veteran required to play out of his role. Not going to disagree with your points, they are happening in a game, but I guess I'm ok with a player getting paid 1.5 million making those mistakes and you aren't. Not too mention he cannot use his body like he used to, his back was completely *#%^@&, and that's impacted his career on the iceas much or more then the Moore incident.

i would also like to note that i hold all of these opinions independently of the moore incident. i was actually a bertuzzi backer in that situation as i believe that he shouldnt be punished for the bad luck of moore falling awkwardly. so its not residual anger from 6 years ago, it really isn't.

and i realize that his salary is moderate. and i also realize that with injuries we have few options. however, that doesn't mean we can't criticize poor play when we see it.

So what we seeem to be disagreeing on is - That if a player gets called on to play a role he isn't suited for that he shouldn't be making as much mistakes as he has made? If so I can agree on the criticism's of his poor puck decisions, and I agree. But to say he was a wasted signing, or plainly saying he sucks is just devoid of any appearance of intelligence and quite frankly irks me(Not directed at you).

[Sepster 0]

Seems appropriate

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/dd7602458...crap-from-danny

[dicksmack 33]

Bert scored one fluke and one nice goal. While it was nice to see him all smiles, I still thought: "big deal..."

[Hockeytown_Ryan 122]

Good post, Hank. Pretty much what I've been trying to say the whole time. People's expectations are/were too high for a 1.5 million aging, injury riddled ex-superstar.

WHOA!!!!!! THERE!!!!!

superstar??? superstar??? He may not be on the top of my favorite players.....but superstar???? I dont think he could be classified (ever) as a superstar.

Ovechkin is a superstar. Mario Lemieux was a superstar....

a career of mostly assists and negative +/- ratings does not classify him as even close to being a superstar. He had one year close to 50 goals.... and a few good years in Vancouver..

a Star in the league yes! I might concede to that.. but not a superstar... sorry.

[mjlegend 155]

Now, I want someone to start a "Datsyuk SUCKS" thread.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Now, I want someone to start a "Datsyuk SUCKS" thread.

GMR to the rescue?

Imagine the s*** someone would get for that. No, I just don't have the guts, but you're more than welcome to do it yourself.

[dicksmack 33]

Now, I want someone to start a "Datsyuk SUCKS" thread.

So instead of people strongly suspecting you're an idiot, you will remove all doubt?

[Carman 387]

WHOA!!!!!! THERE!!!!!

superstar??? superstar??? He may not be on the top of my favorite players.....but superstar???? I dont think he could be classified (ever) as a superstar.

Ovechkin is a superstar. Mario Lemieux was a superstar....

a career of mostly assists and negative +/- ratings does not classify him as even close to being a superstar. He had one year close to 50 goals.... and a few good years in Vancouver..

a Star in the league yes! I might concede to that.. but not a superstar... sorry.

Far enough, but his 02-03 season is about as dominate as you can get. It was a short-lived superstar stay, but imo he was. Just a difference of definition that's all, buddy.

[Johnny Diamonds 25]

Not sure what the haters were expecting out of this guy this season? IMO, he's done a decent job in his role. Would I like to see him score a bit more? Sure! Hell I'd like to see see Leino-Abs-Helm-DATSYUK score some more goals as well. The entire team has been in a funk and hopefully we see guys like Bert have more nights like he did last night. Atleast once every 4 or 5 games. This team plays hard pretty much every game. Losing is not in their DNA and that's why they are only 6 points behind the division leader despite all the injuries and adversity they've faced this season. I believe this team is only going to get stronger as the season goes on. The goals and bounces will start coming going the Wings way and last night might have been a perfect example of that.

GO WINGS!

[dobbles 252]

wanted to know i was responding to you, but didn't want to quote the super long post!

you bring up good points. let me preface things by saying i don't think that any of the stats given are particularly damning for or against bertuzzi. however, from reading the thread, i got the impression that the pro-bertuzzi stats 'won' the argument for him being a good player. and i wanted to try and put some perspective and counter arguments to the stats that were provided. with that said, here goes...

shooting percentage... i agree, its not his forte and we shouldn't expect to see it insanely high. as a matter of fact, when i was looking at the stats, it seemed at first glance that his shots attempted was up and his goals were still pretty much on pace compared to the last couple years. the last 2 years he has averaged about 2 shots a game whereas this year he is getting closer to 3. to me it says this: that he is shooting more for the sakes of shooting. whether its his role on a line or some other reason, he seems to take bad shots just to make him look productive. so when i saw someone claim that his high number of shots meant he was having a good year, it made me wince.

+/-... i agree its a super tough stat to gauge players with. however with many types of players (grinders, defensive dmen) it is really one of the more important meters of success. while i do find it hard to hate on guys for specific instance of minus games, i was just trying to note that over the last season and a half he has consistently been the worst minus player on the 2 teams hes been on. so to me that is a big enough range to really start saying it means something. thats why i included it.

the salary... i don't think salary in general is a straw man. however, time and time again in this thread, it is used to totally dismiss arguments. if i bring up his +/-, then soemone replies that he only makes 1.5 mil and i should shut up. if i bring up his giveaway takeaway ratio, someone replies he only makes 1.5 mil and i should shut up. people use it as an excuse. and they use it as reasoning to dismiss any criticism.

as for role vs. production... while bertuzzi may not have been signed with the intention to play the top line or anything, its not like he should be incapable of it. heck you are the one that said he used to be a superstar. so all of a sudden he can't even be expected to play in the top 6. i think it was probably realistic that he was going to get PP time regardless of health issues. so i really don't see why it is so absurd to assume that a guy should be able to put up some points when playing lots of minutes with 2 of the best forwards in the game.

[sureWhyNot 19]

So instead of people strongly suspecting you're an idiot, you will remove all doubt?

I think he was trying to point out the the absurdity of the "Bertuzzi sucks" post.

Regardless of how ever much quasi analysis people want to conduct on Todd Bertuzzi facts are still going to be fact.

FACT: he has been one of the top 4 forwards on the team this year on a nightly basis.

FACT: we are paying him 1.5 million dollars.

FACT: He has contributed more offensive production then Draper, Eaves, Helm, Abdelkader, Leino and Maltby and has one less point then Cleary, and two fewer points then Holmstrom. I suspect this will change after tonights game.

FACT: He plays hard night in and night out all the while having to deal with sh*thead fans who will hate him regardless of what he does. Say what you want about his past, but it would become straining to play every game (even home games) in front of a crowd who really doesn't like you - or at least the majority of the crowd doesn't like you.

I absolutely love the guy, and he has become my second favorite Wing behind Rafalski (Lidstrom is on a level above every one else, much like Yzerman was so don't think I am forgetting about him - he's more or less royalty then just a 'player').

It annoys the hell out of me when everyone dog piles on the guy for just about everything he does. I mean the way people have picked apart his stats is unprecedented.

You want to get angry about someone? Look at what we are paying Fillipula and pick apart his stats (obviously not from this year cause he hasnt played much). Or what about Leino? A guy who has been worse then worthless this year.

[Mors 201]

^What he said. Bertuzzi continues to meet reasonable expectations for his salary and age.

[Hank Dats 'N Homer 81]

Bert scored one fluke and one nice goal. While it was nice to see him all smiles, I still thought: "big deal..."

The smile that i saw on his face last night made me feel that hes starting to feel like part of the team and feels like he can contribute. I think seeing his teammates so excited about it will give him confidence and excites me to see how he will respond to it.

[Mors 201]

This thread SUCKS.

[dobbles 252]

i take it all back!!!!

[Xitium 272]

LOL.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

[ShanahanMan 473]

OWNED

[Carman 387]

Nice to see him skating with confidence. It's all he needed.

[Green Wing 26]

This thread SUCKS.

+1

Delighted for Bert.

[CanadaBoy 151]

+1

[teebo 22]

good thread, a+ material.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

"SUCKS" is ******* Bertuzzi speak for "GOD"