Wings release Aaron Downey

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Go Enforcer Groupies!

We always win these "enforcer" thread arguments.

The anti-enforcer slappies need to give it up already.

[Dominator2005 558]

It's sad to see that vaginas like Grabovski-Armstrong are acting tought when playing against the WINGS... You can see him acting tough only and only wjen playing against WINGS...

[dobbles 252]

Agreed. Rosehill needs to get out of Toronto, he is a pretty good hockey player but in his role with Brown and Orr ahead of him he isn't needed there.

He can skate as fast if not faster then Miller, throws big hits and would fight 30 times a year. I'm surprised he hasn't got a shot at the NHL full time yet.

And I just wanna say one thing, all the anti enforcer people who say the wings can win without toughness in the line up, I would love proof of that because there hasn't been a cup won without a straight up enforcer in the line up for the wings. I'm not saying I want someone like Downey who I think is past his prime but I would like to see us draft some 6'4 crazy sob and put him in the line up. I just don't get how anti enforcer people can say the wings have proven time and time again they can win without a goon when it has never actually happeened

this is such an absurd assertion. thats like saying we can't win a cup without maltby since he was on all 4 cup teams. i am all for debating the merits of fighting and even the usefulness of a dedicated goon. however, its silly to imply that one is NEEDED to win a cup or that any of our 4 cups (especially the 2 most recent) were impacted by having a dedicated enforcer.

[KATIEBARTHEDOOR24 426]

This thread is still going? The whole league knows the wings are one of THE softest teams. They've been for years I wouldn't say they've any true fighters 95 when Mac was young and kocur was still around and healthy

[newfy 695]

this is such an absurd assertion. thats like saying we can't win a cup without maltby since he was on all 4 cup teams. i am all for debating the merits of fighting and even the usefulness of a dedicated goon. however, its silly to imply that one is NEEDED to win a cup or that any of our 4 cups (especially the 2 most recent) were impacted by having a dedicated enforcer.

Well I think the wings have proven they can win without an enforcer is an absurd statement because they never actually have. EVER. but anti enforcer people love to say it when its not true. I never said that they can't win a cup without one but its just fact that they never have so you can't really use that argument.

And its different then saying that Maltby thing because Maltby is a person but an enforcer is a role on the team. I don't think we would've won those 4 cups without players like Maltby because he used to be physical, ******* that filled an important role on the team.

[Buppy 1,720]

Well I think the wings have proven they can win without an enforcer is an absurd statement because they never actually have. EVER. but anti enforcer people love to say it when its not true. I never said that they can't win a cup without one but its just fact that they never have so you can't really use that argument.

And its different then saying that Maltby thing because Maltby is a person but an enforcer is a role on the team. I don't think we would've won those 4 cups without players like Maltby because he used to be physical, ******* that filled an important role on the team.

If you really think Downey or McCarty were the difference between 2008 and 2009 you are certifiably insane.

While the team has almost always had someone capable of fighting, the majority of our teams have featured no one better than McCarty, who wasn't scaring anyone even in his prime. And again, consistently at or near the bottom of the league in fighting majors every year for the duration of our current reign as perennial contenders, and over that time posting more Cups, more wins, more points, more playoff wins, and more playoff series wins than any other team in the league. I haven't actually added it up, but I'll bet we have the fewest fights over that time period.

But if you really want to believe that the 10-20 fights we usually have in a year have been the lynch pin of our success, I guess no one can help you.

[cjm502 165]

Well I think the wings have proven they can win without an enforcer is an absurd statement because they never actually have. EVER. but anti enforcer people love to say it when its not true. I never said that they can't win a cup without one but its just fact that they never have so you can't really use that argument.

And its different then saying that Maltby thing because Maltby is a person but an enforcer is a role on the team. I don't think we would've won those 4 cups without players like Maltby because he used to be physical, ******* that filled an important role on the team.

Funny you say that because they have never had the chance to prove they can play without the enforcer figure. There has ALWAYS been that enforcer figure on the team that plays a few regular season games and is a black ace in the playoffs. If the Wings did not have an enforcer I doubt it would slow them down in the playoffs, enforcers dont even play in the playoffs anyways and when they do they dont really fill their role because in the playoffs it isnt needed. Guys like Abdelkader, Ericsson, and to a lesser extent Bert and Eaves fight good enough to stick up for teammates. Hearing about the Wings being too soft is almost as annoying as saying they are too old. The past few years we have been one of the softest teams but we have also been one of the best. I think that argument in itself is good enough.

Edited October 3, 2010 by cjm502

[newfy 695]

If you really think Downey or McCarty were the difference between 2008 and 2009 you are certifiably insane.

While the team has almost always had someone capable of fighting, the majority of our teams have featured no one better than McCarty, who wasn't scaring anyone even in his prime. And again, consistently at or near the bottom of the league in fighting majors every year for the duration of our current reign as perennial contenders, and over that time posting more Cups, more wins, more points, more playoff wins, and more playoff series wins than any other team in the league. I haven't actually added it up, but I'll bet we have the fewest fights over that time period.

But if you really want to believe that the 10-20 fights we usually have in a year have been the lynch pin of our success, I guess no one can help you.

No but if you actually think the wings have proven they can win a cup without an enforcer then you are insane. Its just a fact, live with it and stop bringing it up when your main argument is detroit has won in the past without an enforcer because its just not true, plain and simple.

[dobbles 252]

No but if you actually think the wings have proven they can win a cup without an enforcer then you are insane. Its just a fact, live with it and stop bringing it up when your main argument is detroit has won in the past without an enforcer because its just not true, plain and simple.

so if having an enforcer is all that is required to win a cup, why don't we win one every time we have an enforcer? if having an enforcer is so important to winning a cup, why didn't the wild ever win one with boogaard in the lineup?

additionally, your assertion is actually false. the wings won a cup in 2002 without an enforcer. name me who was the enforcer on that roster? it wasn't shanahan; he was a power forward that scored and occasionally fought. and it wasn't mccarty either. he had 12 points and only 7 fights in 60+ games. those stats indicate he was nothing more than a bottom 6 forward that fought occasionally. that is NOT what an enforcer does. there were 73 players with more fights than dmac that year. the only other guy with multiple fights that year was avery. he is also not an enforcer by any means. he is a best player that happened to get in a few fights. while his measly 4 points make him look more like an enforcer on the stat sheet, he play since then has shown it was not a lack of skill that caused it, but merely youth and inexperience.

[Broken 16 381]

No but if you actually think the wings have proven they can win a cup without an enforcer then you are insane. Its just a fact, live with it and stop bringing it up when your main argument is detroit has won in the past without an enforcer because its just not true, plain and simple.

Seriously? Your using token 'enforcers' who barely played, let alone fought, as proof that they can't win without an enforcer. Lol.

It's an angle... I'll give you that.

[newfy 695]

so if having an enforcer is all that is required to win a cup, why don't we win one every time we have an enforcer? if having an enforcer is so important to winning a cup, why didn't the wild ever win one with boogaard in the lineup?

additionally, your assertion is actually false. the wings won a cup in 2002 without an enforcer. name me who was the enforcer on that roster? it wasn't shanahan; he was a power forward that scored and occasionally fought. and it wasn't mccarty either. he had 12 points and only 7 fights in 60+ games. those stats indicate he was nothing more than a bottom 6 forward that fought occasionally. that is NOT what an enforcer does. there were 73 players with more fights than dmac that year. the only other guy with multiple fights that year was avery. he is also not an enforcer by any means. he is a best player that happened to get in a few fights. while his measly 4 points make him look more like an enforcer on the stat sheet, he play since then has shown it was not a lack of skill that caused it, but merely youth and inexperience.

I've never once said we automatically win if we have an enforcer in the line up, what I am saying is that Detroit has always had a person capable of enforcing if need be when they've won the cup. I'm not arguing you have to have anforcers at all, I'm just saying anti enforcer people need to cut it out with "the wings have proven they can win without one" argument because thats just plain and simple not true.

As for the 02 team. Mccarty was a heavyweight fighter who could enforce the game, he was just a very good one offensively as well by fighter standards. 5 goals however isn't exactly great offense, I can find you enforcers who had 5 goals in a season and are considfered nothing more then enforcers. Hordichuk had 4 last year but he is for sure an enforcer.

Seriously? Your using token 'enforcers' who barely played, let alone fought, as proof that they can't win without an enforcer. Lol.

It's an angle... I'll give you that.

No, its not proof of that at all. Its proof that when all the anti enforcer people say the wings have proved they can win without one it isn't actually true.

Do I tihnk the wings can win without an enforcer? Sure, it just hasn't happened yet so that argument is valid for anti fighting people. I do however think that the wings need toughness in their bottom 6 to win, even guys like a prime Maltby or Abdelkader who throw their weight all the time and piss the other team off.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

In order to win a Cup, a team needs a balance of skill, grit, and veteran experience. You won't win a Cup with a team compiled of nothing but goons, but you're not gonna won a Cup is your lineup is compiled of nothing but soft euros. There needs to be balance. Bottom 6 guys are valuable keys to playoff success. In 2008, Dallas Drake was stellar in the playoffs. He provided a grizzly hard-hitting veteran presence to go alongside Darren McCarty. Now, when you look at the team this year, the skill is there (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, etc.), the veteran presence is there (Lidstrom, Draper, Osgood, Modano), but is the team gritty enough? Patrick Eaves, Justin Abdelkader, and Darren Helm are all solid grinders. They all play well defensively. Now, in my opinion, the one piece to the puzzle missing is the fisticuff presence. As mentioned before, the Cup-Winning team in 2008 had Drake and McCarty. Take a look at past Cup-winning teams and Chicago had some guys willing to mix it up: Adam Burish and Ben Eager. Anaheim in 2007 had plenty of willing combatants with George Parros, Brad May, and Travis Moen, among others. I feel the last missing piece to complete this team is that fisticuff presence.

[Buppy 1,720]

...Do I tihnk the wings can win without an enforcer? Sure, it just hasn't happened yet so that argument is valid for anti fighting people. I do however think that the wings need toughness in their bottom 6 to win, even guys like a prime Maltby or Abdelkader who throw their weight all the time and piss the other team off.

So basically, you're arguing against something you believe yourself on a technicality. Anyone can tell we had a team capable of winning the Cup in 09. That does, whether you want to admit it or not, prove that it can be done.

We have people who can fight. Everyone on the team can fight, in fact. Just not particularly well. Not much different at all from any of the past 15 years, considering we've been one of the softest teams in the league over that span.

If we do win the Cup it will be funny to see Abby being labeled an enforcer for fighting (and probably losing) six times this year.

[Dominator2005 558]

So basically, you're arguing against something you believe yourself on a technicality. Anyone can tell we had a team capable of winning the Cup in 09. That does, whether you want to admit it or not, prove that it can be done.

We have people who can fight. Everyone on the team can fight, in fact. Just not particularly well. Not much different at all from any of the past 15 years, considering we've been one of the softest teams in the league over that span.

If we do win the Cup it will be funny to see Abby being labeled an enforcer for fighting (and probably losing) six times this year.

Abby enforcer... he can drop he gloves... and that's it... There is a MAJOR difference between droping the gloves and fighting...

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Abby wiLl never be anything more than a grinder. He'll never be an enforcer. That's just silly.

[redwingfan19 293]

"Mike Rupp on why the Pens carry an enforcer-"I'm sure that there are times when you see Zetterberg getting pummeled a little bit."

http://twitter.com/georgemalik

/argument, thread

Enforcers FTW

[dobbles 252]

As for the 02 team. Mccarty was a heavyweight fighter who could enforce the game, he was just a very good one offensively as well by fighter standards. 5 goals however isn't exactly great offense, I can find you enforcers who had 5 goals in a season and are considfered nothing more then enforcers. Hordichuk had 4 last year but he is for sure an enforcer.

in 02, mccarty was a bottom 6 grinder with a few fights. NOT an enforcer.

but if you actually think the wings have proven they can't win a cup without an enforcer then you are insane. Its just a fact, live with it and stop bringing it up when your main argument is detroit hasn't won in the past without an enforcer because its just not true, plain and simple.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

So basically, you're arguing against something you believe yourself on a technicality. Anyone can tell we had a team capable of winning the Cup in 09. That does, whether you want to admit it or not, prove that it can be done.

We have people who can fight. Everyone on the team can fight, in fact. Just not particularly well. Not much different at all from any of the past 15 years, considering we've been one of the softest teams in the league over that span.

If we do win the Cup it will be funny to see Abby being labeled an enforcer for fighting (and probably losing) six times this year.

I'm not gonna argue that you need an enforcer to win a Cup, but your reasoning doesn't prove anything. Because in your opinion the Wings had a team capable of winning the Cup and they didn't have an enforcer, that somehow proves that you don't need an enforcer to win the Cup??

They didn't win the cup, so it proves nothing. It's all just speculation on your part.

Abby is definitely not an enforcer. He's not afraid to muck it up if someone gets after him when he throws a hit, but he can barely handle himself at the NHL level. He's young, so maybe he'll improve, but even then he's not an enforcer. He'll hopefully be a good player who isn't afraid to drop the gloves, which is good.

And if you're going back 15 years, there were a number of guys who could fight well. McCarty, Lapointe, Grimson, Shanahan, Kocur, Pushor, Fischer. There's guys on the team from that era who would beat the snot out of anyone on the current Wings roster. And plenty of other guys who would fight on occasion and could handle themselves. So if you're comparing the two eras, it's pretty different now than it was then.

The current roster has a few guys who are willing to drop the gloves, but none who are particularly good at it. Bert has probably had his one fight for the season already. Ericsson rag dolling a gutless puke like Perry does not make him a good fighter. Then there's Abby, Eaves, Cleary.

Last season the Wings had 19 fights. 10 of which were from Brad May. If Holland knows what he's doing and apparently doesn't believe in enforcers, it's odd how he keeps trying to add guys like May and Downey to the lineup.

And as I said before, it's ridiculous to measure adding an enforcer against whether that one element will win us the Cup. Hockey is obviously a more complex game than that. And this is pretty much the only debate that the standard for adding that kind of player is there has to be definitive proof it will lead the Wings to the Cup. It's absurd.

IMO - Maltby was more effective in his role as an agitator when he had guys like McCarty, or Kocur out there with him.

He absolutely was.

It's not a coincidence that his level of agitating dropped off as those guys were no longer on the team.

Edited October 3, 2010 by haroldsnepsts

[Dominator2005 558]

I'm not gonna argue that you need an enforcer to win a Cup, but your reasoning doesn't prove anything. Because in your opinion the Wings had a team capable of winning the Cup and they didn't have an enforcer, that somehow proves that you don't need an enforcer to win the Cup??

They didn't win the cup, so it proves nothing. It's all just speculation on your part.

Abby is definitely not an enforcer. He's not afraid to muck it up if someone gets after him when he throws a hit, but he can barely handle himself at the NHL level. He's young, so maybe he'll improve, but even then he's not an enforcer. He'll hopefully be a good player who isn't afraid to drop the gloves, which is good.

And if you're going back 15 years, there were a number of guys who could fight well. McCarty, Lapointe, Grimson, Shanahan, Kocur, Pushor, Fischer. There's guys on the team from that era who would beat the snot out of anyone on the current Wings roster. And plenty of other guys who would fight on occasion and could handle themselves. So if you're comparing the two eras, it's pretty different now than it was then.

The current roster has a few guys who are willing to drop the gloves, but none who are particularly good at it. Bert has probably had his one fight for the season already. Ericsson rag dolling a gutless puke like Perry does not make him a good fighter. Then there's Abby, Eaves, Cleary.

Last season the Wings had 19 fights. 10 of which were from Brad May. If Holland knows what he's doing and apparently doesn't believe in enforcers, it's odd how he keeps trying to add guys like May and Downey to the lineup.

And as I said before, it's ridiculous to measure adding an enforcer against whether that one element will win us the Cup. Hockey is obviously a more complex game than that. And this is pretty much the only debate that the standard for adding that kind of player is there has to be definitive proof it will lead the Wings to the Cup. It's absurd.

He absolutely was.

It's not a coincidence that his level of agitating dropped off as those guys were no longer on the team.

[newfy 695]

So basically, you're arguing against something you believe yourself on a technicality. Anyone can tell we had a team capable of winning the Cup in 09. That does, whether you want to admit it or not, prove that it can be done.

We have people who can fight. Everyone on the team can fight, in fact. Just not particularly well. Not much different at all from any of the past 15 years, considering we've been one of the softest teams in the league over that span.

If we do win the Cup it will be funny to see Abby being labeled an enforcer for fighting (and probably losing) six times this year.

I dont know about that. The team we had in 09 probably should've won but they were worn down physically. If we had more physical presence and balance on the team we could've worn Pittsburg down and their advantage would not have been as huge.

Even if you look at Mccarty as a bottom 6 grinder who fights on occasion, the wings have always had a guy capable of enforcing on the team because Mac was that guy. If you don't call him an enforcer fine, but he was for sure a capable and willing guy who could enforce

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I dont know about that. The team we had in 09 probably should've won but they were worn down physically. If we had more physical presence and balance on the team we could've worn Pittsburg down and their advantage would not have been as huge.

Even if you look at Mccarty as a bottom 6 grinder who fights on occasion, the wings have always had a guy capable of enforcing on the team because Mac was that guy. If you don't call him an enforcer fine, but he was for sure a capable and willing guy who could enforce

Agreed. It's like with Shanny. He was far from an enforcer, but he wouldn't hesitate to drop the gloves to stick up for his teammates.

As a 39 year old, he fought Brashear after the goon elbowed Jagr and was taking other cheapshots at the Rangers. It was mostly a hugfest and Shanny pretty much lost the fight, but the crowd and his teammates were on their feet applauding. people don't see how that means something?

Like when Lappy nailed Lidstrom and then Downey fought him. Same thing. People still talk about it. And it's not just something for the fans. It helps the team. Your captain just got rocked. Imagine if nothing happened and they let the power play be their enforcer. Your team leader had to get helped off the ice and injured his knee. It's demoralizing as a player just like it is as a fan to watch that happen and just take it. While it doesn't prevent it, laying a beating absolutely means something for team morale and chemistry.

[ogreslayer 1,069]

Per the Freep this afternoon, Downey to stay with the organization & work in GR as a strength & conditioning coach.

http://www.freep.com/article/20101003/SPORTS05/101003030/1053/Wings-to-keep-Downey-as-minor-league-coach

Just another reason why the Wings have the rep as one of the greatest organizations in all of sports, not just hockey.

[cjm502 165]

Per the Freep this afternoon, Downey to stay with the organization & work in GR as a strength & conditioning coach.

http://www.freep.com/article/20101003/SPORTS05/101003030/1053/Wings-to-keep-Downey-as-minor-league-coach

Just another reason why the Wings have the rep as one of the greatest organizations in all of sports, not just hockey.

Good for Downs, im glad we could keep him around.

[Krystal 41]

Just caught that last bit on the stream with Holland. I'm glad to hear it, Downey's a good guy. Glad he's been able to find himself a place in the organization.

[Buppy 1,720]

Abby wiLl never be anything more than a grinder. He'll never be an enforcer. That's just silly.

Of course he isn't. But if we happen to win the Cup just watch the revisionist history. This will somehow become a tough team.

The 97 and 98 Cup teams were soft compared to the rest of the league. There were debates exactly like this back then. Kocur was too old. McCarty wasn't a real heavyweight. We never should have gotten rid of Probert or Grimson. Lapointe and Primeau didn't fight enough, etc. But from the talk about them now you'd think it was one of the toughest teams in NHL history. People talk like McCarty was a fearsome enforcer in 02. The 08 team had the mighty Drake who apparently won us the Cup all by himself.

The Wings are a soft team. We've been a soft team for years and years, and we've won despite that.

I'm not gonna argue that you need an enforcer to win a Cup, but your reasoning doesn't prove anything. Because in your opinion the Wings had a team capable of winning the Cup and they didn't have an enforcer, that somehow proves that you don't need an enforcer to win the Cup??

They didn't win the cup, so it proves nothing. It's all just speculation on your part.

...

Last season the Wings had 19 fights. 10 of which were from Brad May. If Holland knows what he's doing and apparently doesn't believe in enforcers, it's odd how he keeps trying to add guys like May and Downey to the lineup.

And as I said before, it's ridiculous to measure adding an enforcer against whether that one element will win us the Cup. Hockey is obviously a more complex game than that. And this is pretty much the only debate that the standard for adding that kind of player is there has to be definitive proof it will lead the Wings to the Cup. It's absurd.

...

You are saying we need an enforcer to win the Cup. And that is your only argument. You say we need one, I say we don't. I think it's hilarious that you all are so terrified to admit even the possibility that a team can win without an enforcer. I bet you were all relieved when we lost in 09.

And that's the difference. I have no problem admitting that having an enforcer can have its usefulness. I'm just not going say it's an absolute necessity. It isn't. Games are won on the scoreboard. Fighting may help, but it is far from the only way to score or prevent goals. Simple kindergarten logic tells you then that it is absolutely possible to win without fighting. But you all act like making that simple concession would be like admitting that fighting has no value.

As for Holland, let's see what he's really done. He had McCarty when he became GM. McCarty happened to also be a pretty good hockey player. Always a regular in the lineup. Maybe if Holland didn't have that luxury he would have signed someone else. Or maybe not.

McCarty left after the lockout. We didn't carry an enforcer in 05-06. Didn't carry one in 06-07 either. 07-08 we added Downey. 08-09 we had nothing. Downey and McCarty spent the majority of the year in GR. 09-10 we added May, but he was originally signed to play in GR, but got a spot due to injuries. Once the team got healthy, he was waived and sent back to GR. That year we were also jammed against the cap and could only afford a minimum wage player. Thus far this season we have no one.

So, 4 of 6 years with no enforcer, 1 with an enforcer for half the year only because of injuries, and 1 year with an enforcer as the 13th forward, who wasn't taking a spot from anyone better. Yeah, Holland really gives that role a high priority.

We already have a full roster. Too many players in fact. We don't have any room for an enforcer. We don't need an enforcer. An enforcer won't put us over any edge. We have one of the best teams in the league, and we are capable of winning the Cup. With no enforcer. Come back next season when we have a couple spots open.