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P. Marlowe

Ryan Miller's opinion on Milan Lucic

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Has there really been a lot of outrage in this thread? To me it reads mostly as confusion.

As I said in my post, I think an argument can be made that it didn't warrant a suspension. But for Shanny to say it's due to lack of intent doesn't make a lot of sense and is a little surprising based on the standard he was using early in the season.

Goalies are not fair game. It's like if Lucic had lined up a player without the puck, didn't go out of his way to avoid contact, and even followed through on the hit like he did with Miller. He may not have intended to injure that player, but when you intentionally hit a guy who's not legally hittable, it's a grey area at best because the intent is pretty clearly to take a shot at someone you shouldn't.

If he wanted to keep in line with how he has been giving out punishment, honestly I think Shanny should've given a fine to Lucic for intentionally running a goalie and concussing Miller.

Outrage yes, statements like wanting the Red Wings to exact retribution for an incident involving other teams, wondering rhetorically why people like Savard get cheap-shotted, calling Lucic trash, I see plenty of outrage. Surprising you don't.

Your analogy though has nothing to do with what occurred.

Goalies are not fair game, the technicality of this wasn't really debated or inferred otherwise.

The charging nature of the penalty was the fact that this was obviously not incidental contact -- the refs had to call that. If it was not a penalty to finish the check on a goalie playing the puck far away from his crease as any other skater playing the puck would be vulnerable to this would have been a non-issue.

It's not anywhere close to an intent to injure call on the ice. It was not a double minor, it was not a major, there was no misconduct, no match penalty, nothing. It isn't just Shanahan that saw it that way. Lucic simply tried to play the puck and when he was too close he decided to just brace himself and deliver a hit.

There's no argument that it's a penalty (if we're arguing by the NHL's rules, my opinion obviously is another issue) but you're not making any sense trying to justify a suspension.

Edited by Shoreline
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Shanny gives Macarthur 3 games or whatever it was for his tiny little bump on Abdelkader but a guy running a goalie in the head (hands came up) doesnt even warrant a fine?

Shanny did learn from Campbell I guess eh

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Okay, if everyone is saying it wasn't intent to injure, then what was it??? He clearly wasn't tryIng to separate the man from the puck (it was already gone), you don't protect your self by throwing all 240 so lbs at Miller when the picks heading to the corner. Then follow through with ur hands. I won't even point out the fact he was laughing about it. Fact is Lucic tried to hit a player, that legally isnt allowed to be hit, and didn't have the puck, while receiving a charging penalty. Its either that or he was trying to avoid hitting him all together and 200+ lucic was trying to protect him self from a goalie who was standing still and defensiveness???

Lucic saw his chance to take a shot at Miller and he did. This isn't whether u feel like goalies should be fair game outside the crease because that isn't in the rules. He CAN'T be hit.

This is also why I had a problem with no call on Thomad for flattening Sedin in the crease. The goalies aren't allowed to be hot, they shouldn't be able to hit back. If thst is legal Hasek flipping Gabby is legal, atleast Hasek attempted at the puck.

These are NHL players they know what they are doing he ran over miller with no other intent but to take him out. If you disagree please explain to me your side and don't just neg me, id love to hear u out...

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Okay, if everyone is saying it wasn't intent to injure, then what was it??? He clearly wasn't tryIng to separate the man from the puck (it was already gone), you don't protect your self by throwing all 240 so lbs at Miller when the picks heading to the corner. Then follow through with ur hands. I won't even point out the fact he was laughing about it. Fact is Lucic tried to hit a player, that legally isnt allowed to be hit, and didn't have the puck, while receiving a charging penalty. Its either that or he was trying to avoid hitting him all together and 200+ lucic was trying to protect him self from a goalie who was standing still and defensiveness???

Lucic saw his chance to take a shot at Miller and he did. This isn't whether u feel like goalies should be fair game outside the crease because that isn't in the rules. He CAN'T be hit.

This is also why I had a problem with no call on Thomad for flattening Sedin in the crease. The goalies aren't allowed to be hot, they shouldn't be able to hit back. If thst is legal Hasek flipping Gabby is legal, atleast Hasek attempted at the puck.

These are NHL players they know what they are doing he ran over miller with no other intent but to take him out. If you disagree please explain to me your side and don't just neg me, id love to hear u out...

So the latest conspiracy is that Lucic intended to take Miller out..

I've seen goalies hit behind the net countless times when playing the puck. If they get bowled over, in my opinion it's their fault, the rules often disagree with me here, but still, I don't think you quite understand what any levels of intent are.

First is the situation behind the play. They were going for the puck. Lucic braced himself and made the hit. The only reason this is even a penalty is because contact occurred and Lucic made no effort whatsoever to get out of the way.

Second, intent to injure, might wanna re-watch the Flames/Wings series in the 2004 playoffs of Ville Niemenen skating into the crease and elbowing Curtis Joseph in the head. That is an intent to injure. This hit with Lucic on Miller.. give me an effing break.

Edited by Shoreline
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So "no intent to injure" is claimed by Lucic...

...and somehow this one claim alone outweighs the fact that A. it was an illegal play; B. Lucic is a repeat offender; C. Miller was injured and concussed on the play; D. the player made no attempt to play the puck; E. there was contact with the head; F. he was laughing about it right afterwards....

Seems pretty textbook if you ask me. I was a fan of Shanny's work to start the season, but since that time it has been as confusingly inconsistent as ever.

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So the latest conspiracy is that Lucic intended to take Miller out..

I've seen goalies hit behind the net countless times when playing the puck. If they get bowled over, in my opinion it's their fault, the rules often disagree with me here, but still, I don't think you quite understand what any levels of intent are.

First is the situation behind the play. They were going for the puck. Lucic braced himself and made the hit. The only reason this is even a penalty is because contact occurred and Lucic made no effort whatsoever to get out of the way.

Second, intent to injure, might wanna re-watch the Flames/Wings series in the 2004 playoffs of Ville Niemenen skating into the crease and elbowing Curtis Joseph in the head. That is an intent to injure. This hit with Lucic on Miller.. give me an effing break.

The talk of intent is silly, and 99 times out of 100 is completely based on speculation and bias. It is nearly impossible to prove intent, which is why it should only be used when it is damn obvious, like say stomping on a players leg with your skate; black and white, only one outcome, injury. Saying you believe that he didn't mean to do it, like Shanahan did here, shouldn't acquit the player of the act. Likewise, we shouldn't condemn a player on plays like this (not black and white like the stomp) based on the way he looked at him or things he said, though after his reaction, Lucic was looking guilty as sin.

In this case, it has little to do with whether Lucic intended to injure Miller when he hit him like he did. It matters that he did intend to hit him, and Miller did get injured. The rest is for the fans to argue. Lucic made a stupid, reckless, dirty play outside of the bounds of the rules (whether you agree with them or not), and it resulted in injury. Period. It doesn't matter if he knew how stupid it was or if he meant it to be as cheap as it was.

This is a different example than most because this wasn't a goaltender getting hit playing the puck behind the net. I usually defend the skater when a goaltender is behind his goal, sitting on a puck and someone bumps into him. This wasn't behind the net. This wasn't a delayed play. There was no puck anymore. This wasn't a little bump.

Everyone needs to stop comparing this play to plays behind the net, and definitely need to drop the whole "but he didn't mean to" argument. Action trumps intent.

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Outrage yes, statements like wanting the Red Wings to exact retribution for an incident involving other teams, wondering rhetorically why people like Savard get cheap-shotted, calling Lucic trash, I see plenty of outrage. Surprising you don't.

Your analogy though has nothing to do with what occurred.

Goalies are not fair game, the technicality of this wasn't really debated or inferred otherwise.

The charging nature of the penalty was the fact that this was obviously not incidental contact -- the refs had to call that. If it was not a penalty to finish the check on a goalie playing the puck far away from his crease as any other skater playing the puck would be vulnerable to this would have been a non-issue.

It's not anywhere close to an intent to injure call on the ice. It was not a double minor, it was not a major, there was no misconduct, no match penalty, nothing. It isn't just Shanahan that saw it that way. Lucic simply tried to play the puck and when he was too close he decided to just brace himself and deliver a hit.

There's no argument that it's a penalty (if we're arguing by the NHL's rules, my opinion obviously is another issue) but you're not making any sense trying to justify a suspension.

If I'm not making sense to you in trying to justify the suspension, that may be because I wasn't actually trying to justify one.

You can cherry pick a few posts and make it sound as if there's this resounding outrage, but you were the one saying Miller swung his stick like a girl after breaking a nail, so you hardly look impartial on the matter. Most of this thread to me is people just discussing it, with a few people who already hate Lucic chiming in. And maybe one who apparently doesn't like Miller.

Also, the Red Wing in question happens to be the brother of the player who got run by Lucic. I'm not advocating it, but it's not like it was someone randomly saying the Wings should attack Lucic. They were just speculating on if his brother Drew would do anything.

I chose that analogy because we're talking about a player who isn't eligible to be hit, much like a player without the puck. If you hit a guy without the puck the intent may not have been to injure, but because you're hitting a player who probably isn't prepared to get hit, the chances of injury are higher, intent or not.

Edited by haroldsnepsts
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Shanny gives Macarthur 3 games or whatever it was for his tiny little bump on Abdelkader but a guy running a goalie in the head (hands came up) doesnt even warrant a fine?

Shanny did learn from Campbell I guess eh

I'm certain the GMs around the league have given Shanny thier opinion on his job thus far (hence the drop in the number of suspensions these past few weeks).

Maybe I'm still bitter towards Roy when he "cup checked" Dino several times, but I'm of the opinion that if the netminder wants to leave the crease to play the puck - he sure as hell better keep his head up.

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The talk of intent is silly, and 99 times out of 100 is completely based on speculation and bias. It is nearly impossible to prove intent, which is why it should only be used when it is damn obvious, like say stomping on a players leg with your skate; black and white, only one outcome, injury. Saying you believe that he didn't mean to do it, like Shanahan did here, shouldn't acquit the player of the act. Likewise, we shouldn't condemn a player on plays like this (not black and white like the stomp) based on the way he looked at him or things he said, though after his reaction, Lucic was looking guilty as sin.

In this case, it has little to do with whether Lucic intended to injure Miller when he hit him like he did. It matters that he did intend to hit him, and Miller did get injured.The rest is for the fans to argue. Lucic made a stupid, reckless, dirty play outside of the bounds of the rules (whether you agree with them or not), and it resulted in injury. Period. It doesn't matter if he knew how stupid it was or if he meant it to be as cheap as it was.

This is a different example than most because this wasn't a goaltender getting hit playing the puck behind the net. I usually defend the skater when a goaltender is behind his goal, sitting on a puck and someone bumps into him. This wasn't behind the net. This wasn't a delayed play. There was no puck anymore. This wasn't a little bump.

Everyone needs to stop comparing this play to plays behind the net, and definitely need to drop the whole "but he didn't mean to" argument. Action trumps intent.

lol.. what? If you can suggest that Lucic intended to hit him therefore it's an intent to injure then that infers every hit is an intent to injure if the hit results in an injury. That sounds quite ridiculous. "Kronwalled" is synonymous with "Intent to injure", sorry Kronner.

An intent to injure penalty cannot 100% without error be called because sometimes the intent isn't as obvious. An intent to injure penalty is one of the more major penalties in the game someone can get, so there had better be some pretty damn clear indication that was intended if one is going to be assessed this penalty and the suspension that inevitably would result. This was not the case even remotely with Lucic. He did intend to hit Miller simply because of the technicality of a charging penalty whereby it states that if he doesn't make any reasonable attempt not to hit the goalie outside the crease it's charging.

It is not only Shanny that saw it that way, it was the officials who were officiating the game, who actually got a call right for a change. Lucic was not smiling like hur hur I made a hit on a goalie /trollface, he had Sabres players in his face and was smiling because every single hit of any sort these days needs a stupid ass reaction by teammates. I would laugh too at those idiots.

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lol.. what? If you can suggest that Lucic intended to hit him therefore it's an intent to injure then that infers every hit is an intent to injure if the hit results in an injury. That sounds quite ridiculous. "Kronwalled" is synonymous with "Intent to injure", sorry Kronner.

Not true. A player hits another player, knowing that said player has proper pads on. As has been noted repeatedly, it is well known that goalie pads are not built to protect from being hit. Not to mention that an injury to a star goalie is just about the worst injury you can have. Therefore, it's hard to imagine a player like Lucic hit Miller without intent to do something. Maybe not a concussion, but tweak a muscle or something. Even something small can really hurt Buffalo's goaltending. And so he didn't get out of the way like he could have.

It's reasonable to assume that Lucic did have intent to injure, and his purposeful hitting on an underprotected goalie is evidence of that.

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Shanny is an idiot. Sorry, it's true. I've explained in detail before why I believe so, however I don't believe there should have been a suspension here. Miller had a beef, it should've been a major because of the intent. What really riles me up is Lucic. That dumb looking hunchback punk is making jokes about it after the game, and saying how his team would have responded differently and all this s***. Buffalo better be ready next game... I SAID ARE YOUUU READYYYYY

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Not true. A player hits another player, knowing that said player has proper pads on. As has been noted repeatedly, it is well known that goalie pads are not built to protect from being hit. Not to mention that an injury to a star goalie is just about the worst injury you can have. Therefore, it's hard to imagine a player like Lucic hit Miller without intent to do something. Maybe not a concussion, but tweak a muscle or something. Even something small can really hurt Buffalo's goaltending. And so he didn't get out of the way like he could have.

It's reasonable to assume that Lucic did have intent to injure, and his purposeful hitting on an underprotected goalie is evidence of that.

To the bold, that's why it's a "charging" penalty. If it were anyone other than a goalie that's not even a penalty.

To the underlined, this is made up. You have no basis for concluding he wanted to injure Miller. Try and use this logic to prove someone's intent in a court and see how well that logic holds up. Also, to note, Miller did not just leave the game when the hit happened. He played another 26 minutes of ice time, surely was evaluated at the first intermission, and cleared to keep playing, until leaving after the 2nd. Lucic is not a weak hitter and if this guy wanted to injure Miller with a hit he would have certainly done plenty of damage. Miller's injuries came from the fall, not the hit -- somehow, he was capable enough to swing his stick at Lucic in response, and he's damn lucky he didn't connect or that would have got him a suspension.

It is not reasonable to just say someone had an intent to injure.. prove the intent. Hitting Miller is not proof of an intent to injure without making synonymous hitting someone with intending to injure. An intent t injure is not an intent to hit, it's an intent to injure someone. Seriously, it's hard to fathom what the difficulty in discerning the two is. The only proof here is that it's a charging penalty.

Edited by Shoreline
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Kerry Fraser's opinion:

FRASER: SHANAHAN MISSED THE CALL AND HAS SENT WRONG MESSAGE

Brendan Shanahan and the Player Protection Committee have already ruled on the body check Milan Lucic delivered on Ryan Miller of the Buffalo Sabres that has left the goalie with concussion like symptoms. I have been a strong advocate of the work that Shanny has been doing to this point of the season with supplementary discipline but I have to disagree with his ruling on this one.

I believe he really missed this call and has sent the wrong message. Like it or not, goalies enjoy preferred treatment similar to endangered species in the wild; at least up until this latest decision. It would now appear they are subjected to the same rules as any other player once they leave the "protection of their nest!" Lindy Ruff has every right to call foul on this non suspension. Milan Lucic should have been suspended for the next two (2) games.

I attended a meeting one summer with team general managers and coaches to discuss various topics on the game. A hot topic on the agenda was protection of the goalkeepers. It was generally agreed that goalies deserved preferential treatment and marked "untouchable" for a variety of reasons. (Rule 42-charging- pretty much makes goalies immune to body contact from opposing players.)

During that meeting I recalled Glen Sather, as GM of the Edmonton Oilers at the time, voice a word of caution that granting goalies immunity from body contact created an unfair advantage because players such as Ron Hextall and Martin Brodeur could pass and shoot the puck better than most defensemen in the League,. In spite of this consideration goalies became pretty much off-limits.

Rule 42-Charging- pretty much make goalies immune from body contact by opposing players. It reads: "A minor, major or a game misconduct shall be imposed on a player who charges a goalkeeper while the goalkeeper is within his goal crease."

In a practical application, any time that a player takes a run at a goalie from a distance and hits him with velocity while within this crease a major penalty (and likely a game misconduct) is applied.

The next portion of the rule applies to the Lucic hit on Miller where it goes on to state, "A goalkeeper is not 'fair game' just because he is outside the goal crease area. The appropriate penalty should be assessed in every case where an opposing player makes unnecessary contact with a goalkeeper. However, incidental contact, at the discretion of the referee, will be permitted when the goalkeeper is in the act of playing the puck outside his goal crease provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact."

In plain and simple terms this translates to DON'T TOUCH THE GOALIE.

This was not a race to a loose puck where a collision resulted through a tie in the footrace. This was not "incidental contact" nor was any effort, let alone a "reasonable effort" made by Milan Lucic to avoid Ryan Miller after the goalkeeper released the puck.

This was very clearly a hard shoulder body check finished with elevated hands, delivered by an attacking forward on a goalie that did not expect to be hit under protection of the playing rules. Any other player would expect to be hit on the finish of a check - a goalkeeper does not. I deem it a dangerous play and it creates an even more dangerous precedent.

In my judgment this open ice check on the goalie deserved more than a 2 minute minor penalty. A major for charging would be the most appropriate penalty for this type hit on a goalkeeper. (A game misconduct would only be added if an injury resulted to the face or head of Miller. He remained in the game for a period of time so this would be impossible for the referee to ascertain when the penalty assessment was made.)

The end result of the body check was a concussion to the Sabres goalkeeper; arguably their best and most important player on the team.

A strong message should be been sent throughout the hockey community with the assessment of a two (2) game suspension to Milan Lucic through supplementary discipline. Players (and more importantly goalies) would know that the League still considers them endangered and will continue to protect them from full blown body checks. It now appears that hunting season is now open. The license only takes "two minutes" to fill out and can be completed from the penalty box.

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^ So Fraser just re-quotes the charging rule and re-translates it into a charging major and two game suspension.

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^ So Fraser just re-quotes the charging rule and re-translates it into a charging major and two game suspension.

As well as provide a first hand account of a meeting with players, GM's, and coaches which showed concern for the topic we're all discussing. Pretty good stuff if you ask me.

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As well as provide a first hand account of a meeting with players, GM's, and coaches which showed concern for the topic we're all discussing. Pretty good stuff if you ask me.

True, I was paying more attention to the substance used to justify the suspension.

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Anybody know why Miller wasn't taken out of the game and sent to the training staff for a concussion evaluation like every other player involved in a bit hit/potential injury situation is forced to do? He played for another period and a half. I'm not implying that he was faking or anything, I'm just wondering if there are a different set of rules for goalies with regards to injuries as well?

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Shanny is an idiot. Sorry, it's true. I've explained in detail before why I believe so, however I don't believe there should have been a suspension here. Miller had a beef, it should've been a major because of the intent. What really riles me up is Lucic. That dumb looking hunchback punk is making jokes about it after the game, and saying how his team would have responded differently and all this s***. Buffalo better be ready next game... I SAID ARE YOUUU READYYYYY

It's funny how everyone was criticizing Ottawa after that game, for letting their goalie fight two fights in a row, including one against an enforcer.

Now, all the criticism is leveled at Buffalo for being a gutless team.

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Okay and for the millionth time, in the NHL RULEBOOK, they are not fair game. Period. Its really not that hard to understand.

Ok but then why no suspension then on this? Cause it was clear as day to me Lucic wasn't really trying to play the puck. Just a penalty which it was so no worries.

So the call just being a 2 minute penalty whatever the call was is/was just am I right? Or according to the leage?

Goalies come out they are kind of fair game or should be. Rule book says otherwise ok this is surely a case that's gonna turn heads. Surely also the league will address this at some point. If Howard got run over like that yes I would be pissed off to hell but what are you going to do? Since the league didn't send a message to Lucic on this besides that minor penalty who knows what other moron(s) are going to do the same thing. And yes this will happen again until the league will address it....

Edited by St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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